Arizona governor signs immigration bill

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kokonut said:
You don't have 10,000 illegal aliens entering Canada each day, everyday, taking up your resources, adding to the crimes, drug trafficking, additional taxes, hospital costs and so on.
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So... where all the illegal Asians coming from then?
 
kokonut said:
You don't have 10,000 illegal aliens entering Canada each day, everyday,
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doing the jobs that Americans don't want to do

kokonut said:
taking up your resources,
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such as?

kokonut said:
adding to the crimes, drug trafficking,
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oh the one we fueled it by doing businesses with them? In case you didn't know - probably more than half of politicians are funding it by buying drugs for their drug addictions

kokonut said:
additional taxes,
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nothing comparable to frauds committed by Americans

kokonut said:
hospital costs and so on.
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because of this new health care reform - it will not apply to illegals
 
souggy said:
In response to the murder:

Theoretically... a war deserter from America could enter the Canadian border illegally and murder a Canadian en route.... yet we never bothered tightening up our security protocol.
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It wasn't an isolated incident:

The body of Rancher Rob Krentz and his dog were found shot to death on his ranch. Krentz, who always was good-natured and willing to help people, had called in that he had found an illegal alien at one of his watering holes and was assisting him. That was the last that was heard from him before his body was discovered.

Rob Krentz was a lifelong rancher in Southeastern Arizona, 12 miles north of the U.S./Mexico border and 25 miles northeast of the city of Douglas. He was the father of three children. The ranch has been in his family for three generations, more than 100 years – since 1907, and sits on about 35,000 acres with 1,000 head of cattle. Running a ranch is hard work and with the influx of illegal aliens increasing, Rob was at ground zero of the stampede that is destroying the fragile desert landscape.

The Krentz family has received numerous threats in the past by illegal aliens trespassing on their property. In 2002, the family was physically threatened when one of them stumbled upon a group of 39 illegal aliens. They were told to get off the land and they made threats. The Border Patrol did catch the illegal aliens after they were called, but we all know that illegal aliens, if deported, come right back across.

In 1999, Krentz and his wife Susan did an interview with PBS when they came around asking about the issue of illegal immigration and its impacts on the local ranchers.

“We’ve been broken into,” Susan Krentz told PBS.

“One time,” Rob said “You know, we’ve personally been broke in once. And they took about $700 worth of stuff. And you know, if they come in and ask for water, I’ll still give them water. I – you know, that’s just my nature.”

In 2003, Congressman Tom Tancredo mentioned the challenges of the border ranchers, and in particular highlighted the the Krentz family’s plight.

“In the month of November, 2002, in the Tucson Sector of the U.S. Border Patrol … where the Krentz ranch is located, the Border Patrol apprehended 23,000 border crossers,” Tancredo wrote. “many people would suggest that the [apprehension] ratio is just about maybe one in five, and that is a very conservative estimate. … I think it is closer to one in ten”.

That means in that sector alone for one month, 8 years ago, the most conservative estimate is that 115,000 illegal aliens crossed the border in that one chunk of land in the Tucson sector. All of the illegals are unknown.

Tancredo notes that the Krentz’s did mention to him that they called the Border Patrol. In one instance illegal aliens had butchered one of his calves.


In February [2002] … a calf was butchered by illegal alien trespassers. Two men responsible were caught. They were tried. They were found guilty. They served a total of 51 days in jail. They were also ordered to pay $200 in restitution to the Krentz ranch. The Krentz ranch has not seen a cent of that money; and, of course, our best guess is they will not because these people have been released. They either came back into the population up here in the U.S.A. or returned to Mexico.

Tancredo goes into the cases of deliberate sabotage of the Krentz ranch’s water supply and the other impacts on the Krentz’s by illegal aliens. You can read more, where Tancredo dubs the Krentzs American Homeland Heroes

6 years after the PBS interview, in 2005, Krentz did an interview with KOLD as the number of illegal aliens exploded.

“We’re being over-run, and it’s costing us lots and lots of money,” Krentz said.

“We figured it up over the last five years and it’s cost us over $8 million,” Krentz said. “Cattle don’t like people walking through, so they move. So, cattle weight loss, destruction of fences, breaking our pipelines, they break them in two and (the pipes) run for two or three days before we find it.”

Krentz went on to say that when he was a boy he actually knew the few illegal aliens that came through looking for work, he said it’s nothing like that now as hundreds of unknown illegals stream across his land.

Rob Krentz is just one of the many people who live and work along our southern border. A tough, hard working man who was trying to make a living and doing what he loved. Those who support illegal aliens will talk about “human rights”, but where were the “human rights” when it came to Rob Krentz? Where was the government to protect our border and prevent this from happening, though they’ve been told time and time again? They didn’t protect his property rights, nor his civil rights.

This country failed Robert Krentz, his family and all who work for him. As they have failed countless families all across this country. The number of deaths is estimated to be from 15-25 deaths caused by illegal aliens each day in this country.

It is not known yet whether Krentz was specifically targeted or whether it was just one of the hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens who come across our border every year who have actual criminal records, but in the end does it matter? A hard working man was killed on his own land. And all for just trying to help out someone in need.

And that is simply outrageous.

Rest in peace Robert Krentz, the country will surely miss a great and kind man like you.
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Border Rancher Rob Krentz And Dog Found Shot To Death After Aiding Illegal Alien Maricopa County Republican Committee
 
souggy said:
So far...

I see nothing about the bill that will keep illegals OUT of America. All does is give the police some teeth to harass an individual whether or not he's legit citizen or not. So... how does this exactly help deter illegals from entering America? All it does is push people further and further underground.

Won't stop sex trafficking. Won't stop labour trafficking. Won't stop drug trafficking. Illegal exotic pet trafficking. As long there's demand for all of the above, people won't stop from trying to cross into another country.

And believe me... with 300 million legal citizens, there's a LOT of demands for the above; it might be in the minority, but there's enough people demanding services from illegals for them to keep crossing-- and those demands will be met, no matter how far underground it goes.
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Which is why we have work visas, green cards, etc. Either we let this get out of control or have a way to counter illegal entries and the illegal aliens in this country. Each state has that right to protect their citizens.
 
souggy said:
So... where all the illegal Asians coming from then?
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They come in from all over via smuggling routes, on cargo ships, trucks and so on. If you read one of my links there a story about how asians entered Mexico at the southern end. There are even a few stories of how smuggled asians were found in ship cargo holds in South Carolina and Georgia.

I prefer not to see this get out of control on the illegal alien entries.
 
And yet it’s constitutional to penalize someone for not showing proof of health insurance but not request proof of citizenship? We are living in a backward world.
 
kokonut said:
That's 9,000 citizens murdered each year by illegal aliens. That's more deaths than our troops overseas. It's a travesty that people find this acceptable and let illegal aliens have more rights than American citizens. They are here illegally and have broken the law.
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NOW you are bringing up a problem that is and can be dealt with far more easily.

Why should any alien, legal or illegal, have the same rights as a native born American unless they have become citizens?
 
Berry said:
NOW you are bringing up a problem that is and can be dealt with far more easily.

Why should any alien, legal or illegal, have the same rights as a native born American unless they have become citizens?
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They do not have the right to be here illegally. There are ways of entering the U.S. by legal means. Not following the laws would require deportation.
 
Reba said:
It wasn't an isolated incident:


Border Rancher Rob Krentz And Dog Found Shot To Death After Aiding Illegal Alien Maricopa County Republican Committee
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kokonut said:
Which is why we have work visas, green cards, etc. Either we let this get out of control or have a way to counter illegal entries and the illegal aliens in this country. Each state has that right to protect their citizens.
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How many of those deaths are related to the black market? Sex trafficking? Drug trafficking? Labour trafficking? Exotic pet trafficking? Arms trafficking? The statistics mention how many murders are committed by illegals, but nothing about the nature of those murders.

Even if you can get the illegal-related crimes down to zero. I wager the death-rate will still just be as high since someone else will fill in the void left behind.

Again, the bill does nothing about resolving the reasons why those illegals are here.

kokonut said:
They come in from all over via smuggling routes, on cargo ships, trucks and so on. If you read one of my links there a story about how asians entered Mexico at the southern end. There are even a few stories of how smuggled asians were found in ship cargo holds in South Carolina and Georgia.

I prefer not to see this get out of control on the illegal alien entries.
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So Canada and United States have something in common. However we prefer to crack down on the reasons why those people are here, oppose to questioning people where they're from.

kokonut said:
That's 9,000 citizens murdered each year by illegal aliens. That's more deaths than our troops overseas. It's a travesty that people find this acceptable and let illegal aliens have more rights than American citizens. They are here illegally and have broken the law.
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And?

What have this bill done to keep them OUT of the country? Nothing. Sure, there will be more deportations, but they will come back right over again and again... and again... and again... and again.

The key isn't trying to deport the people who are already here. The key is to keep them out in the first place, so there is no reason for them to cross.
 
souggy said:
How many of those deaths are related to the black market? Sex trafficking? Drug trafficking? Labour trafficking? Exotic pet trafficking? Arms trafficking? The statistics mention how many murders are committed by illegals, but nothing about the nature of those murders.

Not only murders but many are killed as a result of DUI. Crimes are a problem when you have an influx of illegal aliens. I'm not the one to ignore this or pretend it isn't a problem

Even if you can get the illegal-related crimes down to zero. I wager the death-rate will still just be as high since someone else will fill in the void left behind.

Still, it is something that cannot be ignored...the crimes committed by illegal aliens.

Again, the bill does nothing about resolving the reasons why those illegals are here.

The bill allows the police the legal means to do status checks. It's a start. At least Arizona is doing something about it rather than to pretend that illegal aliens are not a problem in their state.

So Canada and United States have something in common. However we prefer to crack down on the reasons why those people are here, oppose to questioning people where they're from.

People can and do lie. Let's see some documentation first.

And?

What have this bill done to keep them OUT of the country? Nothing. Sure, there will be more deportations, but they will come back right over again and again... and again... and again... and again.

The key isn't trying to deport the people who are already here. The key is to keep them out in the first place, so there is no reason for them to cross.
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The key here is to give the police of Arizona some teeth in their long ongoing battle against the tide of illegal aliens in their state. The citizens of Arizona have spoken.
 
kokonut said:
And yet it’s constitutional to penalize someone for not showing proof of health insurance but not request proof of citizenship? We are living in a backward world.
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Apple and oranges.

I doubt people are going to randomly come up to you and say:

"Can we see your health insurance?"

No. Someone will probably take notice when you file for taxes or go to a clinic and so on.
 
souggy said:
Apple and oranges.

I doubt people are going to randomly come up to you and say:

"Can we see your health insurance?"

No. Someone will probably take notice when you file for taxes or go to a clinic and so on.
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The bill does contain a provision where if you don’t get health insurance, you’ll have to pay a tax penalty to the federal government, starting in 2014. But the fine starts out small and by the time 2016 rolls around it'll be fully phased in where the tax penalty becomes substantial. This is all on a constitutional premise by the govt thinking they have the right to force people to buy a certain product or service. So, yeah, the govt can and will ask if you have health insurance but a state cannot ask for proof of citizenship or current status of a person?
 
kokonut said:
Not only murders but many are killed as a result of DUI. Crimes are a problem when you have an influx of illegal aliens. I'm not the one to ignore this or pretend it isn't a problem
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No one is ignoring the problem of illegal aliens; they just prefer to attack the issue via a different way that doesn't infringe on people's daily activities.

kokonut said:
Still, it is something that cannot be ignored...the crimes committed by illegal aliens.
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And exactly how are those crimes being marginalized? Remember... all this bill will do is push people further and further underground. So they will still be here regardless.

kokonut said:
The bill allows the police the legal means to do status checks. It's a start. At least Arizona is doing something about it rather than to pretend that illegal aliens are not a problem in their state.
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Again, no one is ignoring the problem. And yes, it's a start, but it's the wrong way.

kokonut said:
People can and do lie. Let's see some documentation first.
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Says the guy who live in comforts of being an ethnic majority. We have illegals here, but no one check on them. Why? There's too many legal citizens for them to blend in, and to check people's status would be considered as harassing in the hand of the wrong officer. I suspect the border states will have the same issue. Instead, it's better to pin them down whenever they show up at employment offices, ER and so on where proof of documentation is required. Combine this with cracking down on the problems associated with illegal immigrations, I would say it's pretty damn effective.

kokonut said:
The key here is to give the police of Arizona some teeth in their long ongoing battle against the tide of illegal aliens in their state. The citizens of Arizona have spoken.
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Nope. Won't do a thing.
 
kokonut said:
The bill does contain a provision where if you don’t get health insurance, you’ll have to pay a tax penalty to the federal government, starting in 2014. But the fine starts out small and by the time 2016 rolls around it'll be fully phased in where the tax penalty becomes substantial. This is all on a constitutional premise by the govt thinking they have the right to force people to buy a certain product or service. So, yeah, the govt can and will ask if you have health insurance but a state cannot ask for proof of citizenship or current status of a person?
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Still apples and oranges.

Government still require you to provide proof of citizen... when you vote, when you go to the ER, when you file for social security, when you file for taxes, go to pay for insurance and driver licences, go to a bar and so on. No one is going to come up and ask if you have health insurance randomly. Instead, what they're going to do is look at your records or deal with you when the need for identification arises.
 
souggy said:
No one is ignoring the problem of illegal aliens; they just prefer to attack the issue via a different way that doesn't infringe on people's daily activities.

Those daily activies could mean illegal daily activities.

And exactly how are those crimes being marginalized? Remember... all this bill will do is push people further and further underground. So they will still be here regardless.

Either you become complacent and weak-kneed or you don't. The law needs to be enforced.

Again, no one is ignoring the problem. And yes, it's a start, but it's the wrong way.

Oh, I think there are people who want to have this problem ignored in a big way. And how it impacts resources in a variety of ways.

Says the guy who live in comforts of being an ethnic majority. We have illegals here, but no one check on them. Why? There's too many legal citizens for them to blend in, and to check people's status would be considered as harassing in the hand of the wrong officer. I suspect the border states will have the same issue. Instead, it's better to pin them down whenever they show up at employment offices, ER and so on where proof of documentation is required. Combine this with cracking down on the problems associated with illegal immigrations, I would say it's pretty damn effective.


In other words, are you advocating on doing away border control, police protection, no means of requesting any kind of documentation proof or give police the added tool to check up on a detained person's status? What are you saying exactly? There are citizens who are in the ethnic minority who do favor cracking down on illegal aliens. As for the ER, they do not require proof of documentation, hence why it's called "emergency room." We need to pin them down where ever they are and stop pandering to political correctness.

Nope. Won't do a thing.

As with each little forward initiative it helps combat the rising tide of illegal immigration. It's not the only solution but a solution among many and must be combined to make this work. It's a start. Somebody had to step forward and give people the tools needed to effectively fight this problem. .
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.............
 
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