Survey of Bi-Bi programs - Empirical Article

[jillio]

What about the children with CI that are successful in mainstream education. Do we remove them from oral to introduce ASL? Should ASL be introduced as a support or what is your opinion. Or can oral education be encouraged if the child is being successful?

Can a child with a CI function the same as a hearing child? That is the question. An oral environment is designed to address the needs of students who have full use of their auditory function.

Bi-bi does not discourage the use of oral skills. Why would you purposely place a child in an environment that does not address their strengths?

 

[jillio]

I do get what Cheryl is discussing.

Are you referring to Cheri?

And I "get" what she is saying, as well. I simply disagree with it. And the literacy rates over the last 30 years seem to support my view.

 

[shel90]

What about the children with CI that are successful in mainstream education. Do we remove them from oral to introduce ASL? Should ASL be introduced as a support or what is your opinion. Or can oral education be encouraged if the child is being successful?

I posted something about that (don't know if this thread or in another but since I am using my pager..too hard and long to search for it so I will restate. )

Well...have to see those who r mainstreamed orally more deeply, not just on the surface. On the surface, I was successful as an oral-only deaf child. I wasn't, socio-emotionally and in some areas academically cuz of the restrictive environment I was put in. Sure, I have great literacy skills on paper but abstractically, I struggled and I couldn't fully participate in classroom discussions due to my inability to keep up. I think I shud have been removed BUT I won't use that as a generalization. Nobody, not even my parents, recongized the warning signs cuz I appeared fine on the surface. Have to see if other oral-only deaf childrens are dealing with the same internal struggles because they are constantly left out to what's happening around them academically and socially.

My proposal to start BiBi for the younger ages and when the children get older, if they want to go to an oral-only enviropnment, by all means, I am very supportive of that. The most important thing is that these children have established a strong L1 language. Like I stated in that other post, I am in full support of magnet programs (as deafdyle keeps suggesting) where older deaf children go to different programs using different communication methodolgies as long as they r fully thriving in them and not neglected in a classroom full of 30 plus hearing kids.

I very much understand thast deaf children need the expewrience to interact with hearing kids but not at the expense of their language/literacy skills development.

 

[jillio]

If I am to be blamed for the education situation for many deaf children, I do try my best to provide a fair and accessible educational environment for all of my students so nobody gets left out to what's going on in the classroom.

Unfortunately, those trained specifically in education for the deaf are the ones that get blamed, because they are the last stop after the mainstream failed these kids for several years, and then the TODs are expected not just to remediate the problems experienced in the mainstream, but to move these kids forward, as well.

 

[vallee]

Can a child with a CI function the same as a hearing child? That is the question. An oral environment is designed to address the needs of students who have full use of their auditory function.

Bi-bi does not discourage the use of oral skills. Why would you purposely place a child in an environment that does not address their strengths?

I disagree. You can't take a child out of a successful educational environment and place them in an environment that they have no knowledge of. Do we stop at CI or do we also remove children with HA too.

 

[jillio]

I disagree. You can't take a child out of a successful educational environment and place them in an environment that they have no knowledge of. Do we stop at CI or do we also remove children with HA too.

You disagree with what? I am not proposing to move a child from any environment. I am proposing to put them in the one that best facillitates their edcuation from the very beginning. Give them the strong foundation that they need so that they are able to make the transitions. Just because a child has become accustomed to a certain environment doesn't mean that it is the most conducive to success or development. An abused child rarely wants to leave their abuser, either, because it is the only environment they know. However, is it the most healthy and conducive environment for that child's mental and emotional development and health?

 

[shel90]

Unfortunately, those trained specifically in education for the deaf are the ones that get blamed, because they are the last stop after the mainstream failed these kids for several years, and then the TODs are expected not just to remediate the problems experienced in the mainstream, but to move these kids forward, as well.

Yes, it is a very unforgiving field of work sometimes but all I can do is do it for the children and their families, not for the politicans, doctors, or anyone else.

The mainstreamed educators who weren't able to meet the children's needs by no fault of their own due to not having the proper training nor background in Deaf ed /deafness usually blame it on the students as having processing problems or whatever. One teacher here on AD said "the "bad" children r usually sent to the Deaf schools" a few years ago. That is such a sad statement to make and that's one I will never forget for a long time.

 

[jillio]

Yes, it is a very unforgiving field of work sometimes but all I can do is do it for the children and their families, not for the politicans, doctors, or anyone else.

The mainstreamed educators who weren't able to meet the children's needs by no fault of their own due to not having the proper training nor background in Deaf ed /deafness usually blame it on the students as having processing problems or whatever. One teacher here on AD said "the "bad" children r usually sent to the Deaf schools" a few years ago. That is such a sad statement to make and that's one I will never forget for a long time.

Yes, I remember that statement.:roll:

I know what you mean. I see the teachers assuming that the problems the kids experience in the mainstream are due to intellectual and processing deficits that are inherent in being deaf. The problem with that logic is, it is a faulty conclusion, and the research supports the fact that when a deaf child is placed in an environment that attends to the needs of the deaf child as a deaf child, they function at the same, or an elevated level with their hearing peers. That fact, in and of itself, negates the assumption that deaf children have processing deficits.

In the mainstream, we attempt to address the deaf students needs as if the deaf child is a hearing child with deficits. That is the wrong approach, and it has failed miserably. We need to educate them as deaf children, and use all of the strengths they possess to insure equal access to education, rather than trying to educate them from a weakness based perspective. They are not hearing children with deficits. They are deaf children with strengths.

 

[shel90]

Hmm..I'm curious about this though. I went to a TC school. The differences I feel that my school is not 100% TC because not EVERY single student spoke or was forced to speak. Majority of them did, but many don't.

I do find it a bit odd that there's so much diversity with the students. Many are fluent in ASL, but have poor English literacy skills. Many are fluent in Sign Language and excellent literacy skills (not ASL, because now that I'm seeing that it's not really a true ASL..more of mixture between ASL and PSE). Many are fluent in English skills, but poor at ASL or any type of sign language.

Who's at fault for not having all the students at the same level? Teachers? Parents? Students?

I believe all three are to be blamed at some level.

Oh..I wanted to ask you. About those who are fluent in ASL but weak in English as you mentioned, we have to ask what happened during their early years regarding to language development and educational settings they were placed in. That is critical to find out why they are weak in English and then address where they were failed in the educational system. That is what I always look at..

Also, those who are poor at ASL..did they grow up without it? Were they language delayed? Many children who are language delayed without a strong first language usually have weak ASL skills if they learned at an older age due to the deficients in their processing/cognitive areas from not being able to develop language during their formative years.

To find the answer, we have to ask them about their background. We cant make assumptions without knowing.

 

[jillio]

Oh..I wanted to ask you. About those who are fluent in ASL but weak in English as you mentioned, we have to ask what happened during their early years regarding to language development and educational settings they were placed in. That is critical to find out why they are weak in English and then address where they were failed in the educational system. That is what I always look at..

Also, those who are poor at ASL..did they grow up without it? Were they language delayed? Many children who are language delayed without a strong first language usually have weak ASL skills if they learned at an older age due to the deficients in their processing/cognitive areas from not being able to develop language during their formative years.

To find the answer, we have to ask them about their background. We cant make assumptions without knowing.

Exactly. Assumptions made without background information cannot even show a correlation, much less a cause and effect relationship.

 

[deafdyke]

Should ASL be introduced as a support or what is your opinion. Or can oral education be encouraged if the child is being successful?

Again, we're all pro-full toolbox.
I do think that the gross majority of oral kids can benifit sigificently from exposure to ASL. A lot of oral kids have social-emotional issues.Also many of the oral kids might be able to do EVEN better with ASL and Deaf Schooling.
It's exactly like the way I (with poor fine motor skills. Simlair to mild CP) was forced to manually write. I could do it, but it was very hard for me. I was putting all my energy into actually writing. I didn't have enough energy to concentrate on content. When I started typing, I started actually producing lots of content. As a matter of fact, I am working on my first novel!!!!!
Also, when I was a kid I learned how to ski in the regular ski school. I could do it, but after about seven years I was still at an advanced beginner level. Then I started taking lessons through an adaptive program. I now am a double black diamond demon!

 

[LadySekhmet]

I have asked a few friends of mine this question.

When you "talk" to yourself, what do you hear/see?

One says - I see ASL and pictures.
Another says - I hear myself talking in English.
Another says - I hear myself talking and signing in English
Another says - Just ASL
Another says - Just words

So...I think this is so fascinating because when I am sitting down just thinking thoughts and stuff...I can hear myself talk in English. I never use sign language. While for other Deaf people, it's very different because they cannot hear English and do not really sign in English language with the syntax that I know (I don't even know what to call the sign language methodology that I use...it is NOT ASL, but it's not PSE or SEE either).

 

[shel90]

Actually - I really don't know. The few that I can think of, they know ASL because their parents are deaf and everyone does ASL at home. Their parents also have okay English as well (not the best, but good enough). So, I really do not know where they have failed at Education. I know they learned at a lower English level than the rest of peers. This is why I came up with the conclusion that ASL is causing confusion with English because they're totally two different syntax. Now I realize that I am wrong, ASL is not at fault at all. The only thing I can think of is the teachers are not knowledgeable enough about ASL language to translate into written English (this is where Bi Bi approach would have worked well).

It's been a long time, so...

Poor ASL - Yes the few people that I know, yes has poor ASL skills because they only sign in school while at home they talk. Their parents don't know sign language. My mom is one of the few parents that does know sign. So, I see a lot of students cannot really sign in ASL, myself for one. Although I can understand ASL and sign in ASL "signs", but I cannot get rid of the English thoughts that's in my head. (See my next post about this....)

There is Early Childhood Intervention program at my school. The kids are taught both oral and sign. Simple signs and simple spoken language. It is during IEP meetings to see what will benefit the child the most. There are a few that cannot speak well (either due to poor listening skills, poor auditory skills, or just doesn't want to), and they will not be forced to take speech classes. Those who does speak well gets speech classes. It's NOT AVT, but similar...teaches how to lipread, how to say words properly such as spelling words or sentences, idioms, etc etc. I learned how to say ceiling. Stuff like that.

Nowadays, there's a huge influx of CI children and when I went to visit there last, many do NOT sign. They were jabbing to me and I had no clue what they said.

This is why I thought the school I went to has such a huge diverse of education between the students. Not all are successful. There are a lot of students who also have other disabilities on top of deafness.

When I speak of the students with the language delays, they do not have any other disabilities.

Deaf students with other disabilities is a whole different issue and subject.

 

[rockdrummer]

And it is those who were failed who lose out BIG and that is so wrong.

Yes I believe we can all agree that failures suck. It doesn't matter where it happens and success stories are always great to hear. Just as TC is not beneficial to all , CI's will not be either. That is a harsh reality but you can't deny the opportunity just because it doesn't work for all.

 

[shel90]

Yes I believe we can all agree that failures suck. It doesn't matter where it happens and success stories are always great to hear. Just as TC is not beneficial to all , CI's will not be either. That is a harsh reality but you can't deny the opportunity just because it doesn't work for all.

and if the BiBi approach proves to work for all? What then?

 

[rockdrummer]

Yep, it's all a common misconception.

I read somewhere that there is a California mainstream program which just started to converted into a BiBi program there, too.

Even there are some hearing people teaching ASL with their hearing babies, too.

Currently (someone please correct me if I am wrong) there is not an abundance of choices for parents in the mainstream educational system regarding bibi programs. They are few and far between. That may change but you have to understand it is limiting for parents in areas where these programs don't exist. This may be another reason a parent would opt for a CI. Accessibility to deaf ed programs

 

[jillio]

Why does learning ASL require the child to be sent away to school? It seems people think ASL is only limited to deaf schools...public schools can adopt BiBi programs. I believe Fairfax County Public schools in VA did and I heard it has been very successful.

Exactly. If the public schools can adopt a TC philosophy, they can just as easily adopt a bi-bi philosophy.

 

[rockdrummer]

and if the BiBi approach proves to work for all? What then?

If the bi bi approach works for all then I would imagine that it would gain momentum until it's popular and then join amongst the ranks of the ubiquitous. I don't believe any single program works for all. Which is also why I believe there are many programs out there. Shel, I am not against trying bibi as an option as you know I have stated before in this very thread. I just don't believe it or any program is going to be the best for all kids.

 

[shel90]

If the bi bi approach works for all then I would imagine that it would gain momentum until it's popular and then join amongst the ranks of the ubiquitous. I don't believe any single program works for all. Which is also why I believe there are many programs out there. Shel, I am not against trying bibi as an option as you know I have stated before in this very thread. I just don't believe it or any program is going to be the best for all kids.

The problem is that so many are against it cuz ASL is used and ASL has an ugly stigma attached to it from the old days of AGBell. Yes, it is not as bad as it is now but with these drs and audis who strongly adopt the medical model of deafness, they are very much against ASL and they tell the parents that. My mom was told that and I had to suffer from it all of my life.

 

[rockdrummer]

The problem is that so many are against it cuz ASL is used and ASL has an ugly stigma attached to it from the old days of AGBell. Yes, it is not as bad as it is now but with these drs and audis who strongly adopt the medical model of deafness, they are very much against ASL and they tell the parents that. My mom was told that and I had to suffer from it all of my life.

Is this fact or opinion? I never heard of ASL having an ugly stigma attached to it. Perhaps is because the bibi model has not yet proven itself as the panacea for educating deaf children. Perhaps there is no panacea which is why there are so many different methods out there.