SEE is a language... It's English...

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Banjo said:
I grew up with SEE in both home and educational settings.

I have met many, many and I mean many deaf adults who went through the same program and are still unable to read above 4th grade.

It boils down to one thing... language development. It must be done within the first five years of a child's life.
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Exactly. One must have the foundations of an L1 language that is completely accessible or there will always been some form of gap to be remediated.
 
Can Deaf Children Acquire English? An Evaluation of Manually Coded English Systems in Terms of the Principles of Language Acquisition.

Use this link to access the following article:


Authors:
Personal author, compiler, or editor name(s); click on any author to run a new search on that name. Mitchell, Gordon S.
Descriptors:
Terms from the Thesaurus of ERIC Descriptors; used to tag materials by subject to aid information search and retrieval. Click on a Descriptor to initiate any new search using that term. Deafness; Elementary Secondary Education; Language Acquisition; Manual Communication; Sign Language
Source:
The entity from which ERIC acquires the content, including journal, organization, and conference names, or by means of online submission from the author. American Annals of the Deaf, v127 n3 p331-36 Jun 1982

Here is the abstract:


A brief narrative description of the journal article, document, or resource. Criticism of Manually Coded English (MCE) with deaf children is examined in terms of its classification as a language, its inadequate rate of information flow, and its inexact use. Research on MCE is reviewed, and it is suggested that MCE systems are not being used to their best advantage. (CL)


Offers support for what Banjo, myself, Shel, Reba, and several others are saying.
 
GrendelQ said:
Very cool to get your perspective on this Banjo. What did you do differently to achieve a level of literacy that obviously blows those stats out of the water?

I absolutely agree that access to a full and fluent language in those first few years is critical -- regardless of mode or method. So much of the research I've seen backs that up. Finding the balance of a language that's accessible to the child AND provided by fluent users both in the home and out is the biggest challenge for a parent and is so dependent upon each child's situation, including location, resources, and most of all, abilities.
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Well, my parents played a huge role in it. Not to mention that the teachers at the school helped them out too as well. This is the sad part, not many parents were as involved as my parents were. They were more withdrawn and expected the teachers to do more than they were capable of. I'll always be grateful for what my parents have done for me.

From what I can remember, I was encouraged to read, read and read. My parents also gave me assignments at home. For instance, spelling, grammar, ad libs, literacy activities and more.

My father re-created several children books. He re-drew the pictures from the books and drew pictures of signs with the English words below them. They also had flash cards for it as well. I made plenty of books with pictures with labels on them. I learned a lot of words this way since I was very visual-oriented.
 
Link to another one indicating that SEE is intended for teaching literacy, not as communication, and shows which factors of see are problematic for deaf students. Findings also indicate that there are gaps in many areas of SEE using students' English useage.

Cambridge Journals Online - Abstract
 
Banjo said:
My father re-created several children books. He re-drew the pictures from the books and drew pictures of signs with the English words below them. They also had flash cards for it as well. I made plenty of books with pictures with labels on them. I learned a lot of words this way since I was very visual-oriented.
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I LOVE this. My mother spent Thanksgiving with us creating books with my daughter narrating the signs my mom then had to draw -- they were in heaven. Ah, I wish I had that kind of artistic ability! Maybe I need to institute a 'distance learning program' between my mom and daughter :) .

We do a lot of sign-supported reading, which ends up coming out more like SEE than ASL, hence my interest for this particular purpose. The little one is already strong in ASL, and is at an ASL-based school so we wouldn't move in the SEE direction for other purposes, but for literacy -- perhaps. She tends to write in ASL grammar at this point, which her teachers say is common for a child who has had ASL as a primary language.
 
Banjo said:
Well, my parents played a huge role in it. Not to mention that the teachers at the school helped them out too as well. This is the sad part, not many parents were as involved as my parents were. They were more withdrawn and expected the teachers to do more than they were capable of. I'll always be grateful for what my parents have done for me.

From what I can remember, I was encouraged to read, read and read. My parents also gave me assignments at home. For instance, spelling, grammar, ad libs, literacy activities and more.

My father re-created several children books. He re-drew the pictures from the books and drew pictures of signs with the English words below them. They also had flash cards for it as well. I made plenty of books with pictures with labels on them. I learned a lot of words this way since I was very visual-oriented.
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Cool. I was lucky enough to find the signed books from Gally Press. But I used the same flashcards as your parents. When my son was a toddler, they were literally stuck on everything in the house.:giggle:
 
BecLak said:
:applaud: Jillio! We need more people like you. :ty: Thank you to OceanBreeze for your efforts as well. I personally don't know any others. I apologise, please don't hestitate to let yourself be known.
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People like jillio and ob are are too rare. I thought FJ was cool at first but then she started fighting with everyone on this board to the point where I finally put her on ignore and she's only the second person ever that I put on ignore.
 
deafskeptic said:
People like jillio and ob are are too rare. I thought FJ was cool at first but then she started fighting with everyone on this board to the point where I finally put her on ignore and she's only the second person ever that I put on ignore.
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Don't forget Reba. I do not have her on ignore but barely tolerate her. ;)
 
Beowulf said:
Don't forget Reba. I do not have her on ignore but barely tolerate her. ;)
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Well Reba isn't even close to my ignore list but there are some people - especially a certain CI parent who are dangerously close to getting on my ignore list. And no, I'm not referring to FJ.
 
Grendel,

We respect different modes of communication if it works for you, that's great. That is not the issue here.

Deafies, including myself, are very receptive to attitudes and vibes we sense from people. The undertones of the implications stated in each of the posts by the OP, yourself and FJ is - that if you don't have help from the 'professionals' with their therapies and experimential methods that a DHH child cannot acquire 'full and fluent language' and you spend a lot of your 'debates' on trying to prove just that. It is an insult to us to say the least.
I learned what I know of the English language purely from reading and my mother in particular spending time with me in a natural way as you would with any child.[/B]

IMO, If hearing parents could just quit spending so much money and time on therapies and methods to get 'perfect language' and actually spend that valuable time with their child instead. Sign language comes naturally to a deaf child, as it is visual. This, coupled with quality time with said child, is the most effective (and may I say economical way) to get a 'full and fluent acquistion of the English language' As for YOU as a hearing parent, this is the most important thing for you, in the 'best interests of your child', as you cannot seem to comprehend a constructive and happy life perhaps without it. I have news for you - You would be pleasantly surprised as to how much your child can communicate and learn (and yes even in English!) without all that. I am not against methods, but the emphasis having to subject a DHH child to so much overload as a means to an end is totally unnecessary.
 
BecLak said:
Grendel,
The undertones of the implications stated in each of the posts by the OP, yourself and FJ is - that if you don't have help from the 'professionals' with their therapies and experimential methods that a DHH child cannot acquire 'full and fluent language' and you spend a lot of your 'debates' on trying to prove just that. It is an insult to us to say the least.
I learned what I know of the English language purely from reading and my mother in particular spending time with me in a natural way as you would with any child.[/B]

...

I have news for you - You would be pleasantly surprised as to how much our child can communicate and learn (and yes even in English!) without all that. I am not against methods, but the emphasis having to subject a DHH child to so much overload as a means to an end is totally unnecessary.
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Those special professionals involved with my daughter are teaching her ASL. She would not naturally acquire it fluently without their intervention -- I'm a working mom and no matter how much I use it with her, there's not enough ASL in our environment -- mine isn't good enough to suffice. Are you telling me I shouldn't be putting all of this effort into providing her with this language? I realize it's not your native language and you may not value it, but I do. It is necessary to me that my daughter have ASL in her life, and not the hobby variety. Odd that your argument is the same one that an AVT proponent said to me a couple of years ago: that my family should be spending time just being with my daughter, talking with her naturally, rather than having her spend 4 hours a day traveling to an ASL school, rather than Saturday afternoons with an ASL tutor for the family, rather than sending her to a faraway ASL-based daycare than at my workplace with hearing peers she would know for years. But I don't see the immersion in ASL we have provided to her as overload -- she loves it.

But why would I be surprised at how much she can learn without special help as well? I see it every day with her spoken English, which is acquired organically, in the home and in her everyday environment outside school. We can provide a bath of fluent spoken language with ease. No drilling, no overload. We talk, we sing, we play, we read and learn, using spoken language to communicate. She gets it, she loves it. She's a happy, healthy kid who is learning without any obstacles. And I will work very hard to make sure that remains the case.
 
BecLak said:
Grendel,

We respect different modes of communication if it works for you, that's great. That is not the issue here.

Deafies, including myself, are very receptive to attitudes and vibes we sense from people. The undertones of the implications stated in each of the posts by the OP, yourself and FJ is - that if you don't have help from the 'professionals' with their therapies and experimential methods that a DHH child cannot acquire 'full and fluent language' and you spend a lot of your 'debates' on trying to prove just that. It is an insult to us to say the least.
I learned what I know of the English language purely from reading and my mother in particular spending time with me in a natural way as you would with any child.[/B]



IMO, If hearing parents could just quit spending so much money and time on therapies and methods to get 'perfect language' and actually spend that valuable time with their child instead. Sign language comes naturally to a deaf child, as it is visual. This, coupled with quality time with said child, is the most effective (and may I say economical way) to get a 'full and fluent acquistion of the English language' As for YOU as a hearing parent, this is the most important thing for you, in the 'best interests of your child', as you cannot seem to comprehend a constructive and happy life perhaps without it. I have news for you - You would be pleasantly surprised as to how much your child can communicate and learn (and yes even in English!) without all that. I am not against methods, but the emphasis having to subject a DHH child to so much overload as a means to an end is totally unnecessary.
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Excellent post!:ty: I have been trying for some time now to get the point across about the negatives of an overly directive child / parent relationship. A child needs only a language rich environment. All of this directive activity not only inhibits creativity in language use for the child, it also, quite often, gives a parent a false sense of security. The assume that as long as the child is "learning the lessons", they are acquiring fluent language. Unfortunately, that is rarely the case.

My own child acquired ASL not in a classroom, nor in a directive teaching situation, but merely from socializing with other deaf/Deaf people. I learned it in the same way. He much faster than I, as he was but a toddler. He was not provided with lessons to learn...he was merely placed in a situation where people conversed with him.
 
Csign, don't feel singled out. I'd have thought AD would be a "safe haven," a welcoming environment for a family putting effort into providing an ASL immersion experience for a child, a place where I might find others doing the same. There are not very many here, surprisingly.

Here we find that the parents of deaf children providing bilingual environments are told to take themselves off to a hearing aid forum, and I'm being scolded by a hearing person and an oral deaf adult with little if any interest in ASL up to a year or two ago for putting all of this 'directed parent-child' effort into bringing an 'overload' of ASL to my child's life. Seems like a lot of arguing for arguments's sake when you've got posters advocating to keep families with deaf kids apart from the Deaf and let the child pick up whatever language is in use in the neighborhood or local school rather than making a conscious decision to incorporate ASL in her life and provide fluent specialists in the process.
 
GrendelQ said:
Impossible. I was looking forward to following and learning more about the OPs experiences using SEE. It's unreasonable that this person's perspective and the account of a deaf child's experience is being shut down, the discussion turned into a battle over theory and hearsay and a hearing poster's self-affirmation which will likely be closed by mods because of the COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC vicious and personal nature of the attacks underway,as usual. This thread is not about how much J wants everyone to know that people love her and hate FJ. It's not about what FJ thinks of J's arrogance.

I wanted to read about this 7 year old child's experience with SEE, and any other direct experiences with SEE. I have all the hard data and research. The wonder of a thread like this is that you can find the learning tool used in real-life. And I realized that SEE is a mode of the English language, just as are written English and spoken English -- hadn't thought of it that way before. I'd think that J, who has not seen a SEE user before might be curious to know more about what's going on with this child's experience. I sure am.

Doesn't mean we have to all go out and switch methods. But I value the current experience being shared here by this poster. And I'd value examples from others who might have used SEE, either successfully or not so. We don't have to have this account of the method in use expunged from our forum after the usual battle to save our delicate minds from bearing witness to something some people don't like. We're big girls and boys and can use our own judgment.
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Ok, what would you say if a large group of deaf people got together and decided to change spoken English to follow ASL syntax for our hearing children?
 
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