Oral school

[faire_jour]

Sorry, I dont trust their claims. I have seen too many kids from oral-only programs come to our programs not knowing ASL or any other sign language because the programs they came from discouraged the use of ASL or any other signed languages. Nothing against you but I just cant trust them due to what I see year after year..if they were supportive of ASL then why allow the children fall behind in language and social development?

They may not have a problem with families using ASL at the home but may have a problem with using ASL in the educational setting where critical learning takes place.

Right but I was pointing out that it is a huge difference between what I am experiencing and discribing, and the "oralism of the past" that others talk about. There is no abuse, and even banning of ASL at all.

 

[darkage]

Do deaf schools usually have speech therapists? I'm genuinely asking.

Which country? In USA or Italy or Colombia? I grew up Oral School in USA. My wife grew up in Italy and Colombia.

My experience from deaf school.
In our time, MSSD does have speech course - speech training. They taught us to make correct voice.

My opinion, this course does not really help me. I always feel freeze speech.... still can't speak complete one sentence like that "I want to quit my job". Most time, I speech simple one or two word(s), "Where", "when", "how", "come", "Go Home", "cheese", "salt", "What time" etc.

Sometime, hearing people laughed at me that I tried to speak "fourty two". They told me that my voice sound like F... You.

 

[shel90]

Right but I was pointing out that it is a huge difference between what I am experiencing and discribing, and the "oralism of the past" that others talk about. There is no abuse, and even banning of ASL at all.

Ok then I will take your word on that.

 

[shel90]

But what about today? I am visiting John Tracy Clinic this summer, they are one of the programs I was talking about. They are a very only, and prominate oral school. They are willing to accept Miss Kat, and they even say on their website that they know that many families choose to sign and they have no problem with that. They said that their teachers know ASL and would never discourage or put down a child who uses it.

Cut and pasted from the John Tracy Clinic website...it says different

Founded in 1942 by Louise Treadwell Tracy, wife of actor Spencer Tracy, John Tracy Clinic is a pioneer in parent-centered, auditory-oral education for infants and preschool children who are deaf or hard of hearing.

Auditory-oral is auditory oral. No sign

 

[faire_jour]

Ok then I will take your word on that.

So then can we (general we) cut out the whole "oralist abuse children" "oralist are trying to make money off the suffering of deaf kids" "Parents who don't sign are abusing their children" "Oral education hurts kids" "oralists want to ban ASL" rhetoric?

 

[faire_jour]

Cut and pasted from the John Tracy Clinic website...it says different

Founded in 1942 by Louise Treadwell Tracy, wife of actor Spencer Tracy, John Tracy Clinic is a pioneer in parent-centered, auditory-oral education for infants and preschool children who are deaf or hard of hearing.

Auditory-oral is auditory oral. No sign

But doesit say ASL is banned or that kids who use it will be punished? Of course not. I have spoken with them directly several times and I know exactly what their policy is.

 

[faire_jour]

Also from their site:

Welcome to John Tracy Clinic - Online

ASL is a language in its own right. it is not derived from English. ASL has its own grammar and syntax (patterns of arrangement of words and phrases to make sentences) which are distinct from those of English. For example, plurals and tenses are indicated differently in English and ASL. Other important aspects of ASL are the use of appropriate facial expressions and body movements.

When the young deaf child is fluent in ASL, he or she may then be taught English as a second language so as to facilitate literacy.

If hearing parents wish to learn ASL for use with their deaf child as a primary or secondary language, classes may be available through their public school special education association, a local college, or a community service organization. For proficiency to develop, the parents will need to provide opportunities for the child, and perhaps the whole family, to have contact with and communicate with others in the Deaf Community. There may even be an organization in the area that can provide the family with a tutor or mentor who is deaf. When it comes time to make decisions regarding educational placement, the parents may request that their child be enrolled in a specialized program for the deaf or hard of hearing in which there are other children enrolled who are native ASL users. Keep in mind that frequent and prolonged exposure is required in order for language fluency to develop.


How Do I Make A Decision About Which Method To Use?


The dilemma of making decisions while trying to sort out conflicting information can be frustrating. During such a difficult time, it may help you to keep two things in mind.

First, it’s important to make a decision, rather than no decision at all. Hearing impaired children need early language and communication intervention in order to succeed in life. In making the choice for a method of communication, you must consider the amount of your child’s loss, the communication approaches available in your area, what suits your child, what you and your family can learn, and many other factors. If you are faced with these decisions, ask as many questions as you need to understand each of these factors. Visit programs and talk with other parents and deaf people. Compare the advantages and disadvantages of each possible approach for your child and your family. It’s extremely important to make a choice, maintain interaction, and provide your child clear and consistent language input.

Second, no decision is irreversible. You may feel some consolation from knowing that you can review decisions about communication methods and educational programs each year. These decisions can be changed, as necessary, to provide your child with the best chance for success.

Would you like to read more on this subject? We recommend Choices In Deafness: A Parents’ Guide to Communication Options, ed. Sue Schwartz, Ph.D. It is published by Woodbine House, Inc., 6510 Bells Mill Rd., Bethesda, MD 20817. 800-843-7323. Perhaps your local bookstore or library would order a copy for you.

 

[rick48]

Also from their site:

Welcome to John Tracy Clinic - Online

ASL is a language in its own right. it is not derived from English. ASL has its own grammar and syntax (patterns of arrangement of words and phrases to make sentences) which are distinct from those of English. For example, plurals and tenses are indicated differently in English and ASL. Other important aspects of ASL are the use of appropriate facial expressions and body movements.

When the young deaf child is fluent in ASL, he or she may then be taught English as a second language so as to facilitate literacy.

If hearing parents wish to learn ASL for use with their deaf child as a primary or secondary language, classes may be available through their public school special education association, a local college, or a community service organization. For proficiency to develop, the parents will need to provide opportunities for the child, and perhaps the whole family, to have contact with and communicate with others in the Deaf Community. There may even be an organization in the area that can provide the family with a tutor or mentor who is deaf. When it comes time to make decisions regarding educational placement, the parents may request that their child be enrolled in a specialized program for the deaf or hard of hearing in which there are other children enrolled who are native ASL users. Keep in mind that frequent and prolonged exposure is required in order for language fluency to develop.


How Do I Make A Decision About Which Method To Use?


The dilemma of making decisions while trying to sort out conflicting information can be frustrating. During such a difficult time, it may help you to keep two things in mind.

First, it’s important to make a decision, rather than no decision at all. Hearing impaired children need early language and communication intervention in order to succeed in life. In making the choice for a method of communication, you must consider the amount of your child’s loss, the communication approaches available in your area, what suits your child, what you and your family can learn, and many other factors. If you are faced with these decisions, ask as many questions as you need to understand each of these factors. Visit programs and talk with other parents and deaf people. Compare the advantages and disadvantages of each possible approach for your child and your family. It’s extremely important to make a choice, maintain interaction, and provide your child clear and consistent language input.

Second, no decision is irreversible. You may feel some consolation from knowing that you can review decisions about communication methods and educational programs each year. These decisions can be changed, as necessary, to provide your child with the best chance for success.

Would you like to read more on this subject? We recommend Choices In Deafness: A Parents’ Guide to Communication Options, ed. Sue Schwartz, Ph.D. It is published by Woodbine House, Inc., 6510 Bells Mill Rd., Bethesda, MD 20817. 800-843-7323. Perhaps your local bookstore or library would order a copy for you.

Well I hope that puts this discussion to bed.

The JTC is a fantastic resource for parents of deaf children, especially when they are first diagnosed. They had a home correspondence course that we used when our daughter was first diagnosed and it was completely free, no questions asked.

BTW Flip I meant the discussion being put to bed figuratively not literally.

Rick

 

[loml]

Is it ever ok for a deaf or hard of hearing to be in an oral school? How about a mainstream placement with or without an interpreter?

Do not address signing at home or being a part of the Deaf community. Just school.

faire-jour - It would be interesting to be able to access EXACTLY what the programs and curriculum of oral schools from the 1960 etc. where and compare it the to the oral schools of 2009.

Difficult to do, as there are so many inconsistencies in deaf education.

 

[faire_jour]

Well I hope that puts this discussion to bed.

The JTC is a fantastic resource for parents of deaf children, especially when they are first diagnosed. They had a home correspondence course that we used when our daughter was first diagnosed and it was completely free, no questions asked.

BTW Flip I meant the discussion being put to bed figuratively not literally.

Rick

They still have the correspondence course. It is a wonderful resource. It has activities, but it also goes through and explains the difference between speech and language and so many other things that parents of deaf kids need to know. I am very excited to be going to the summer program. They were kind enough to let Miss Kat come even though she will be 6 (by days!) and the program is for 3-5 year olds.

 

[shel90]

So then can we (general we) cut out the whole "oralist abuse children" "oralist are trying to make money off the suffering of deaf kids" "Parents who don't sign are abusing their children" "Oral education hurts kids" "oralists want to ban ASL" rhetoric?

See the bolded..I am still not convinced yet due to the influx of so many children getting referred to our program with delays in language and literacy skills. I am just being honest with how I feel despite that they may upset others.

 

[faire_jour]

See the bolded..I am still not convinced yet due to the influx of so many children getting referred to our program with delays in language and literacy skills. I am just being honest with how I feel despite that they may upset others.

But, I just see that there are downsides to all methodolgies. You refuse to believe that. You think that if a child is given ASL from birth (I don't know how hearing parents are supposed to be fluent language models but that is another point that is refused to be discussed) that all the problems will miraculously disappear, and I don't believe it.

 

[shel90]

Also from their site:

Welcome to John Tracy Clinic - Online

ASL is a language in its own right. it is not derived from English. ASL has its own grammar and syntax (patterns of arrangement of words and phrases to make sentences) which are distinct from those of English. For example, plurals and tenses are indicated differently in English and ASL. Other important aspects of ASL are the use of appropriate facial expressions and body movements.

When the young deaf child is fluent in ASL, he or she may then be taught English as a second language so as to facilitate literacy.

If hearing parents wish to learn ASL for use with their deaf child as a primary or secondary language, classes may be available through their public school special education association, a local college, or a community service organization. For proficiency to develop, the parents will need to provide opportunities for the child, and perhaps the whole family, to have contact with and communicate with others in the Deaf Community. There may even be an organization in the area that can provide the family with a tutor or mentor who is deaf. When it comes time to make decisions regarding educational placement, the parents may request that their child be enrolled in a specialized program for the deaf or hard of hearing in which there are other children enrolled who are native ASL users. Keep in mind that frequent and prolonged exposure is required in order for language fluency to develop.


How Do I Make A Decision About Which Method To Use?


The dilemma of making decisions while trying to sort out conflicting information can be frustrating. During such a difficult time, it may help you to keep two things in mind.

First, it’s important to make a decision, rather than no decision at all. Hearing impaired children need early language and communication intervention in order to succeed in life. In making the choice for a method of communication, you must consider the amount of your child’s loss, the communication approaches available in your area, what suits your child, what you and your family can learn, and many other factors. If you are faced with these decisions, ask as many questions as you need to understand each of these factors. Visit programs and talk with other parents and deaf people. Compare the advantages and disadvantages of each possible approach for your child and your family. It’s extremely important to make a choice, maintain interaction, and provide your child clear and consistent language input.

Second, no decision is irreversible. You may feel some consolation from knowing that you can review decisions about communication methods and educational programs each year. These decisions can be changed, as necessary, to provide your child with the best chance for success.

Would you like to read more on this subject? We recommend Choices In Deafness: A Parents’ Guide to Communication Options, ed. Sue Schwartz, Ph.D. It is published by Woodbine House, Inc., 6510 Bells Mill Rd., Bethesda, MD 20817. 800-843-7323. Perhaps your local bookstore or library would order a copy for you.

Unfortunately, in many cases it becomes too late for many deaf children when the parents decide to change their decisions about educational placement and language of instruction. I wish it was true and that we can say, "Ok this didnt work for this child, so let's try this" without any adverse consequences. The reality is, in the majority of deaf children, the adverse consequences are a lifetime of struggling with literacy skills.

 

[shel90]

But, I just see that there are downsides to all methodolgies. You refuse to believe that. You think that if a child is given ASL from birth (I don't know how hearing parents are supposed to be fluent language models but that is another point that is refused to be discussed) that all the problems will miraculously disappear, and I don't believe it.

Never stated that all the problems will miraculously disappear but the risks of language delays are significantly reduced if the child has full access to language.

I am referring to the educational setting, not at the home. As I have stated before, I cant control what happens in the home but if the parents dont use sign language at the home nad the child goes to a school where no sign language is used and is struggling 24/7, that's where my beliefs come in..that in the educational setting, every child has the right to full access to language, curriculm, communication, and information.


I cant solve all the problems that occur at home but as a teacher, I must provide equal access to everything at school for every child and the only way to ensure that is by using ASL as the language of instruction and then use whatever teaching tools for small group settings to fit each child's learning needs.

 

[faire_jour]

Never stated that all the problems will miraculously disappear but the risks of language delays are significantly reduced if the child has full access to language.

I am referring to the educational setting, not at the home. As I have stated before, I cant control what happens in the home but if the parents dont use sign language at the home nad the child goes to a school where no sign language is used and is struggling 24/7, that's where my beliefs come in..that in the educational setting, every child has the right to full access to language, curriculm, communication, and information.


I cant solve all the problems that occur at home but as a teacher, I must provide equal access to everything at school for every child and the only way to ensure that is by using ASL as the language of instruction and then use whatever teaching tools for small group settings to fit each child's learning needs.

See, and as I parent I totally disagree. I think communication in the home is much more important than school. Parents are the single most important people in a child's life. They are the first teacher, role model and family the child has.

 

[shel90]

See, and as I parent I totally disagree. I think communication in the home is much more important than school. Parents are the single most important people in a child's life. They are the first teacher, role model and family the child has.

I am not disagreeing with u on that. I am talking about the educational setting. It seems like there is a confusion here. Like I said, I cant control what goes on in everyone's home and I would hope the parents provide the support. I cant make any speculations on that becuase I am not there so I dont want to speak for them. I am speaking of the educational setting and why I strongly believe in the BiBi approach. I thought we were discussing different kinds of schools? My parents dont know any ASL but because my brother had access to language at his school, he was able to develop literacy skills. If he had continued at the school where I went as a mainstreamed oral deaf student, I dont think he would be where he is now.

 

[faire_jour]

I am not disagreeing with u on that. I am talking about the educational setting. It seems like there is a confusion here. Like I said, I cant control what goes on in everyone's home and I would hope the parents provide the support. I cant make any speculations on that becuase I am not there so I dont want to speak for them. I am speaking of the educational setting and why I strongly believe in the BiBi approach. I thought we were discussing different kinds of schools? My parents dont know any ASL but because my brother had access to language at his school, he was able to develop literacy skills. If he had continued at the school where I went as a mainstreamed oral deaf student, I dont think he would be where he is now.

But you always talk about "lack of early language exposure" and that would be a "home issue".

 

[shel90]

This is why I cant trust any claims by oral-only programs. TJC says it is auditory/Oral and look at the definition...


From Hands and Voices:

What is Auditory/Oral Education?
The Auditory/Oral (A/O) approach teaches infants and young children
to use hearing and speech to develop spoken language for communication
and learning. Children typically attend a pre-school or early elementary
program taught by teachers and therapists with A/O and child development
training and experience. Signs are not used in the A/O approach;
however, natural gestures that are used in typical conversation are included.

I dont know how can anyone be expected to believe any program's mission statement with this definition but yet tells people the total opposite is true.

 

[shel90]

But you always talk about "lack of early language exposure" and that would be a "home issue".

There are early intervention deaf programs for infants and toddlers along with the elementary education programs.

 

[faire_jour]

This is why I cant trust any claims by oral-only programs. TJC says it is auditory/Oral and look at the definition...


From Hands and Voices:

What is Auditory/Oral Education?
The Auditory/Oral (A/O) approach teaches infants and young children
to use hearing and speech to develop spoken language for communication
and learning. Children typically attend a pre-school or early elementary
program taught by teachers and therapists with A/O and child development
training and experience. Signs are not used in the A/O approach;
however, natural gestures that are used in typical conversation are included.

I dont know how can anyone be expected to believe any program's mission statement with this definition but yet tells people the total opposite is true.

No, they never ever said that they would sign to my daughter. They said that they would acknowledge her communication and respond with spoken language. They aren't signing at all, but it isn't "forbidden" or punished.