Oral school

[shel90]

No, they never ever said that they would sign to my daughter. They said that they would acknowledge her communication and respond with spoken language. They aren't signing at all, but it isn't "forbidden" or punished.

Ok, suppose your daughter doesnt understand some things they said and needed clarification, would they just keep repeating what they said orally or use sign so she can get the concept and then move on?

 

[faire_jour]

Ok, suppose your daughter doesnt understand some things they said and needed clarification, would they just keep repeating what they said orally or use sign so she can get the concept and then move on?

They won't sign, but they also won't just repeat what they said over and over. They are skilled and experienced working with kids who have much less spoken language than my daughter does, they do this everyday. For example, say she didn't understand that it was time to clean up to go outside. First they would try to tell her, if she didn't understand they would rephrase, if that didn't work they would try to explain it using words they know she understands, if that still didn't work they could show her a picture or show that a friend is doing it.
They won't sign, but they won't leave her not understanding either. (Now at the oral school in the fall, they try spoken language but if it didn't work, yes, they would sign)

 

[deafdyke]

And is it "deaf school" good speech, or is it "oral school" good speech? There is a HUGE difference. A Deaf school thinks if you are understood, that is good enough, an oral school believes that a deaf child can have spoken language skills on par with hearing kids.

Where is the proof that oral schools can give deaf kids spoken language abilty on a par with hearing kids?
Yes, an oral education can give dhh kids oral abilty......but the question is....how good is that oral abilty? Yes, gone are the days when an oral sucess was someone who had the spoken language abilty of a five year old.
But many of the oral sucesses still have significent spoken language delays.
However they are more "hoh" spoken language delays, rather then "deaf" spoken language delays.
Most CI kids are basicly hoh, and function AS hoh.

 

[Lighthouse77]

Where is the proof that oral schools can give deaf kids spoken language abilty on a par with hearing kids?
Yes, an oral education can give dhh kids oral abilty......but the question is....how good is that oral abilty? Yes, gone are the days when an oral sucess was someone who had the spoken language abilty of a five year old.
But many of the oral sucesses still have significent spoken language delays.
However they are more "hoh" spoken language delays, rather then "deaf" spoken language delays.
Most CI kids are basicly hoh, and function AS hoh.

those were the days when hearing aids were barely good.

If it wasn't for my hearing aids, I don't think I could learn to speak.

 

[flip]

How? What does oralism literally suck? I'm so curious now. Do you know what literally means?

Sure I have some knowledge, let me help you. If I am not wrong, literally, "suck", means something that is pulling something else into a vacum. Using the word "suck" to describe something not wanted, is an abstract use of the word.

So, what I am saying, is that oralism is only good in the bedroom, IMHO.

ASL programs can help improve your literacy, if you need more explainations

 

[flip]

They won't sign, but they also won't just repeat what they said over and over. They are skilled and experienced working with kids who have much less spoken language than my daughter does, they do this everyday. For example, say she didn't understand that it was time to clean up to go outside. First they would try to tell her, if she didn't understand they would rephrase, if that didn't work they would try to explain it using words they know she understands, if that still didn't work they could show her a picture or show that a friend is doing it.
They won't sign, but they won't leave her not understanding either. (Now at the oral school in the fall, they try spoken language but if it didn't work, yes, they would sign)

Why this desire to torture deaf people? Fear of ASL?

 

[flip]

If that is the definition of "oralism", I have never seen it in practice. I have never see anyone punish a child for not speaking properly, or for using ASL. I have seen families and programs that choose not to use it, but they don't hurt or abuse.

For example, this summer my daughter will be attending two summer programs at fully oral schools. I ask point blank what their position on ASL was. They both told me that the teachers understand ASL and if Miss Kat signs to them they will acknowledge the communication, repeat it back in spoken language and respond in spoken language. Also, the oral school that we were looking at enrolling her in in the fall (probably won't though) said they would transition with a signing aide or sign supported speech, or something, "Anything to make sure she is successful".

My experience is wholey different than the ones so many of you speak of.

You really belive that those teachers know ASL? Don't be easy prey.

Your "experience" seems to be limited to a child that is in an age with lots of uanswered questions, and so called facts from what "They told me.."?

 

[flip]

Unfortunately, in many cases it becomes too late for many deaf children when the parents decide to change their decisions about educational placement and language of instruction. I wish it was true and that we can say, "Ok this didnt work for this child, so let's try this" without any adverse consequences. The reality is, in the majority of deaf children, the adverse consequences are a lifetime of struggling with literacy skills.

This school should be fined for making that kind of statements, wow. Oralism and science don't go along as we can see in the claim from this school.

 

[rick48]

Sure I have some knowledge, let me help you. If I am not wrong, literally, "suck", means something that is pulling something else into a vacum. Using the word "suck" to describe something not wanted, is an abstract use of the word.

So, what I am saying, is that oralism is only good in the bedroom, IMHO.

ASL programs can help improve your literacy, if you need more explainations

But you are wrong as the abstract use of the word you are attempting to describe is not its literal meaning. Instead of inventing some feeble and tortured attempt at pretzel logic why not just admit you misused the term and move on.

BTW would love to see your proof that ASL programs help literacy.

 

[rick48]

But, I just see that there are downsides to all methodolgies. You refuse to believe that. You think that if a child is given ASL from birth (I don't know how hearing parents are supposed to be fluent language models but that is another point that is refused to be discussed) that all the problems will miraculously disappear, and I don't believe it.

Nor do I.
There is no one program that serves the best interests of every child. Every methodology has its downside but there is very little room for dialogue when the knee jerk response to your points is basically "oral programs bad, bibi good".

 

[darkage]

You know how much I hate oral school

Why this desire to torture deaf people? Fear of ASL?

Yes, I was very afraid to learn fingerspelling from other deaf kids at oral school. Yes, the teacher hit other student's hands with wood stick. That's why I refuse to learn fingerspelling and sign langauge

One day, I had little cold. School had break time for kids go playground. I refuse to go outside with my little cold. Teacher grabbed my ear to Office. I cried and scream at office for all day. I do not know how to explain them that I had little cold.

I was type of quiet person at oral school and home.

So then can we (general we) cut out the whole "oralist abuse children" "oralist are trying to make money off the suffering of deaf kids" "Parents who don't sign are abusing their children" "Oral education hurts kids" "oralists want to ban ASL" rhetoric?

Yes, that's biggest hurt my feeling.
Where is my dream in higher education.
Very hard for me to success in my career. Also, I knew some adult grew up from other oral schools. They have little or no success.
See below "I was very very lack of communication at home".

See, and as I parent I totally disagree. I think communication in the home is much more important than school. Parents are the single most important people in a child's life. They are the first teacher, role model and family the child has.

Most hearing parents do not will to learn sign language.

I was very very lack of communication at home. My family felt easier to control my life. Told me to do wash dishes, clean kitchen table, vaccum, etc. My brother asked me to fix his bed, fix his bike's flat tire and lawn mower.

Transfer to deaf school when I was 14 years old. Refuse to learn sign language from my bad experience at oral school. Slow to change my life. I realize that deaf school is biggest help me better communication.

Few times, I was in deaf family for weekend. I learned many things from deaf family. Deaf kids are excellent education better than hearing parents (little or no sign) with deaf kids.

those were the days when hearing aids were barely good.

If it wasn't for my hearing aids, I don't think I could learn to speak.

My oral school required to wear hearing aids or headphone for all day. Still do not help me to learn sound and speak. I had to wear hearing aids at school.
The teacher used paper cover mouth that we can't see his/her lip. I can't tell which is different between, "Blue or Boo or Bee or Bird or any words". I can't tell what is different sound like C or B or any letter. Most important to look lip read.

For example, Some people and our ex-president Jimmy Carter have ugly mouth. Hard to understand to read his/her lip.

Some students did not wear hearing aids or refuse to use headphone. They gave anyone FAIL in report card.

Just so I get a better picture of how deaf people think of schools here:

There are always exceptions to the rule, but I am talking generally..
Mainstream: High risk of lack of social interaction, some risk of education delays due to not being able to understand everything.
Oral School: High risk of education delays due to both not able to understand everything and strong focus on speech.
Deaf School (uses ASL): No risk.

Is that more or less the general consensus?

I like that Daredevil made good example.

My experience what we looked at deaf students or deaf adult came from schools

Deaf School -excellent sign and skill communication (Not always excellent some students were transfer).
Mainstream School - some weird sign language or limited communication
Oral School - FAIL!!! - higher number of people has lower education & very very few success

 

[ASLGAL]

"Oral education hurts kids"

Oral education ONLY hurts kids

"oralists want to ban ASL" rhetoric?

this statement is not rhetoric.
It has been well documented that AGBell and his "Eugenics" project had/has that goal where D/deaf are concerned.

 

[kimpossible2]

Hi Everyone,
I am new to this site and am excited to see the dialogue. In the early years, I was educated using sign and oral language. As I progressed to 4th or5th grade I was forced to chose: oral or sign. Choosing also dictated where I would go to school, locally or specialized. As a small child I was almost always the only child who was deaf/hearing impaired, I foolishly chose oral because I wanted to be like the "hearing kids." Little did I understand that I would never pass as a hearing child no matter how well I spoke. I paid an incredibly high price for this choice and have worked long and hard to make peace with the decision I made. Knowing what I know today, I would never force a child to have to chose one over the other, I would advocate for the use of multiple forms of communication rather than forcing one format. Forcing a child to use only one method robs the child of the opportunity to build a strong well-rounded identity. Lack of identity creates havock on self-esteem, which spirals into a painful existence. It took years to forgive myself for the choice I made and I am so thrilled to find validation in the struggles of being deaf/HOH in an environment that does not support deaf/HOH.

 

[Cheri]

Nor do I.
There is no one program that serves the best interests of every child. Every methodology has its downside but there is very little room for dialogue when the knee jerk response to your points is basically "oral programs bad, bibi good".

I totally agree regardless of the approaches, there are pros and cons in every methodologies, the same goes for deaf schools and mainstream.

But, Many ADers had shared their pros and cons of personal experiences in an oral educational, their personal experiences do count. I don't think oral programs are bad, because it had worked well for some but not all. This program may had worked well with your daughter because in fact she had wore her cochlear implant and could hear better because of her moderate hearing. I believe that many deaf people were angry when signs were banned and we were forced using oral method when their hearing wasn't like others. It bothers me how hearing educators thinks they know what works for us, I don't see any deaf educators telling how hearing people should learn in school. I think it was so unfair to put pressure on a deaf child to struggle to understand sounds in an oral educational setting. That's why there are deaf people who feel that oral is not the best way for the majority of deaf people, because no deaf is the same as another.

In a Total Communication it doesn't matter if deaf's hearing are mild, loss or profoundly deaf. In that approach they have them all (signs/speech/lip reading/finger spelling) I feel that this approach of method is better than oral because in oral, it doesn't meet the needs of all deaf, only some.

 

[faire_jour]

You really belive that those teachers know ASL? Don't be easy prey.

Your "experience" seems to be limited to a child that is in an age with lots of uanswered questions, and so called facts from what "They told me.."?

I've been in two of the classrooms, I can see how much of her language they understand, and watch them interact. I don't have to take their word for it.

 

[Cheri]

I've been in two of the classrooms, I can see how much of her language they understand, and watch them interact. I don't have to take their word for it.

You sure they weren't just putting on a show because you happen to be there? j/k

 

[faire_jour]

Oral education ONLY hurts kids


this statement is not rhetoric.
It has been well documented that AGBell and his "Eugenics" project had/has that goal where D/deaf are concerned.

Oral only education hurts SOME kids. And "oralists" choose not to use ASL, are much more accurate statements.

 

[Bottesini]

Oral only education hurts SOME kids. And "oralists" choose not to use ASL, are much more accurate statements.

This would be so much more interesting if your child came back and told us how she felt about it when she is grown up and it is all said and done.

Instead of you expounding on what you have never experienced.

 

[faire_jour]

This would be so much more interesting if your child came back and told us how she felt about it when she is grown up and it is all said and done.

Instead of you expounding on what you have never experienced.

You expound all day and all night about what is like to be Deaf, and you have only experienced a sliver of the possibilites. You have never been a CI user. You have never been a successful oral deaf person. You have never been born hearing and then slowly lost it after learning spoken language. Every single deaf person is different and has a different life experience, so NO ONE can speak for all deaf people. You like to try to convince me that I'm wrong because I'm hearing, but that is just your insecurity talking. I am well informed, well read and well researched. And most important, I know my daughter and you don't. You have no idea what road she will take to be successful and what tools she will need. I see her every morning and every night. I see her interacting with others, I go to her school 2 or 3 times a week, I sit down with her every night over dinner and discuss life and then I help her with her homework. I am her mother, and I know what is best for her. Just because your ears don't work, it doesn't make you an expert on my child.

 

[Cheri]

You expound all day and all night about what is like to be Deaf, and you have only experienced a sliver of the possibilites. You have never been a CI user. You have never been a successful oral deaf person. Just because your ears don't work, it doesn't make you an expert on my child.

Ouch! that's gonna leave a mark. :Ohno: