Oral school

[shel90]

I'm not saying that they need to use spoken language as the language of instruction, but that it should be of value at the school. For example, at my daughter's school NO ONE, not even the SLP cares if the kids develop appriopraite spoken language skills.

Iam sorry that is the case at your daughter's school.

That hasn't been the case at the prgrams I have worked at.

We have so many young students in the lower grades who can easily code switch between both languages but still need ASL when being intoduced to new concepts due to not having any familiarity to them.

 

[faire_jour]

Yes, they do...it is the law as put forth by the IEP and I am glad cuz I think that every child deserves an opportunity to develop oral skills and if those who do show signs of it, continue with speech therapy. Some children after years and years of therapy still r unable to develop them so it is up to the parents to discontinue with the speech therapy. I never make that recommendation to continue or to discontinue but I do share my observations in the classroom on how well the child uses it and it is up to the speech dept and the parents.

Currently I have 4 students who have excellent speech skills and when I am not teaching a whole class lesson, I use spoken English with them when working one on one with them if they ask me to.

They know that during whole class instruction, ASL is used and they have no problems with it. They have showed that they r comfortable with code switching. I think deaf children are amazing and I care about giving them the best education that is fully accessible to them.

No offense, but how do you know they speak well if you can't hear them? Isn't lipreading only about 20% accurate? And you have have no idea if they are saying "bubble" for "purple" since they look the same on lips, right?

 

[faire_jour]

In answer to your question..there is no same answer for to why every child whether deaf or hearing have good or poor literacy skills.

I suspect that it cud be due to them not having full access to language during their formative years but I would have to study each case.

Blaming asl is not the answer cuz if we did then we can blame English for hearing people's inablity to read and write.

Now, that kinda doent make snse, doesn't it but yet people comtinue to blame ASL.

We can't blame any language because language are they they r....languages, nothing more.

No, it would be the equalivance of blaming Spanish for a child's inability to read English, if the child grew up speaking Spanish and then had to learn to read English in school. Your example is flawed.

 

[Cheri]

The whole point of it is immersion, the more you hear, the more you understand.

Right, the more you hear the more you'll understand that's oral education. The only pros I have from an oral education setting was speech. Yea I'm grateful that I have very good speech, but not language. I would want both.

I'm not saying that they need to use spoken language as the language of instruction, but that it should be of value at the school. For example, at my daughter's school NO ONE, not even the SLP cares if the kids develop appriopraite spoken language skills.

That's the problem when one doesn't follow every method for educating, like for example you had stated that the total communication you visited was horrible, but in my case total communication wasn't like what you said. I supposed it depends on the schools, and teaching

 

[shel90]

Yes, but you have to think about 2 things.

First, what kind of SLP will be hired at a Deaf school? Will it be one who works hard to make sure the kids are at the same level as their hearing peers in spoken language? Will they stay current with advances in oral deaf ed? Will they know how to work both with low functioning oral skills, and kids who are doing great? Will they have high expectations for ALL the kids in the program? Will they believe that the kids can actually learn to use spoken language, or will they see it as fighting a losing battle and that deaf kids can't learn to speak?

Second, can you really learn a second language in 20 minutes a week, or does it take constant exsposure? The whole point of an oral education is that the kids are constantly being flooded with spoken language. The best and easiest way to learn a language is immersion, so they are surrounded by spoken language, so that they will learn to listen and speak. I don't know what oral schools looked like 20 years ago, but today it isn't just one big "speech session". It is a lot like a hearing classroom, just with accomadations and teachers with a specialized education. The whole point of it is immersion, the more you hear, the more you understand.

Yet, a large influx of deaf students still get sent to our program year after year after falling far behind in those programs u speak of. That's what happens when children can't hear nor understand what is being said around them due to not having the auditory capacies to pick up on spoken language like their hearing counterparts do. Yes, we get children with CIs sent to us because the general belief is that "we tried the oal approach and it didn't work..now, they can use ASL " as if ASL will magically get them all caught up immediately. It doesn't work that way...and as a result, a lot of remedial work is required by us, teachers to get them caught up. That's why our jobs aren't easy sometimes.

 

[shel90]

No offense, but how do you know they speak well if you can't hear them? Isn't lipreading only about 20% accurate? And you have have no idea if they are saying "bubble" for "purple" since they look the same on lips, right?

We have hearing staff.

Now, u r implying that as a deaf person, iam incapable of using spoken English with some of my students. Nice...very nice.

 

[faire_jour]

We have hearing staff.

So, you personally don't know? You have been informed by other people?

No, I'm asking. I never said you can't speak, I said you can't hear. How is that offensive?

 

[Cheri]

Now, u r implying that as a deaf person, iam incapable of using spoken English with some of my students. Nice...very nice.

She didn't say that, she said how could you hear their speech to know that they have very good speech skills.

 

[shel90]

No, it would be the equalivance of blaming Spanish for a child's inability to read English, if the child grew up speaking Spanish and then had to learn to read English in school. Your example is flawed.

MY ex's hubby and his siblings's first language was Spanish until they entered school. Now, their English and Spanish literacy skills are superior.

There is NO such thing as an ASL only prgram. The kids are exposed to English as soon as they enter school.

If u want to blame ASL, by all means go ahead but don't forget that there r many ADers here whose first language was ASL and have excellent writing skills. If ASL was to blame then they wouldn't be participating here on AD.

Your reasoning about ASL is flawed.

 

[faire_jour]

MY ex's hubby and his siblings's first language was Spanish until they entered school. Now, their English and Spanish literacy skills are superior.

There is NO such thing as an ASL only prgram. The kids are exposed to English as soon as they enter school.

If u want to blame ASL, by all means go ahead but don't forget that there r many ADers here whose first language was ASL and have excellent writing skills. If ASL was to blame then they wouldn't be participating here on AD.

Your reasoning about ASL is flawed.

Where did I blame ASL? I was pointing out the flaw in your logic, not saying that ASL was the issue. Also why is "some" ok? Some isn't ok with you for oral kids.

 

[shel90]

She didn't say that, she said how could you hear their speech to know that they have very good speech skills.

Like I said, we have hearing staff. Unless over 20 or so had been lying to us, the kids have good speech skills. It was evident on the field trips we go on and I see them ordering food ..they got their orders without a problem so I think the people at McDonal's or whatever understood them just fine.

I have other student who can't speak but write down what they want.

At the end, everyone got their lunch...isn't that's what should count?

 

[faire_jour]

Like I said, we have hearing staff. Unless over 20 or so had been lying to us, the kids have good speech skills. It was evident on the field trips we go on and I see them ordering food ..they got their orders without a problem so I think the people at McDonal's or whatever understood them just fine.

I have other student who can't speak but write down what they want.

At the end, everyone got their lunch...isn't that's what should count?

And is it "deaf school" good speech, or is it "oral school" good speech? There is a HUGE difference. A Deaf school thinks if you are understood, that is good enough, an oral school believes that a deaf child can have spoken language skills on par with hearing kids. Those are different perspectives and different goals.

 

[Daredevel7]

Here is a question.

We know that some deaf kids CAN do well orally (in all aspects, not just speech) just as that we know that deaf kids who were exposed to ASL first and primarily CAN write well perfectly.

In your opinion, which of the above scenarios is more likely to happen? Just trying to get an idea of how common it is for ASL users to have proficient English skills.

 

[shel90]

Where did I blame ASL? I was pointing out the flaw in your logic, not saying that ASL was the issue. Also why is "some" ok? Some isn't ok with you for oral kids.

I don't think it is OK to put ny child at risks for language delays or missing out on what is being taught in the classroom simply because they don't have full access to the spoken language.

That's my strong belief. U may have different beliefs and priorities than I do.

 

[faire_jour]

I don't think it is OK to put ny child at risks for language delays or missing out on what is being taught in the classroom simply because they don't have full access to the spoken language.

That's my strong belief. U may have different beliefs and priorities than I do.

But you do not believe that ASL has any "downside"?

 

[shel90]

And is it "deaf school" good speech, or is it "oral school" good speech? There is a HUGE difference. A Deaf school thinks if you are understood, that is good enough, an oral school believes that a deaf child can have spoken language skills on par with hearing kids. Those are different perspectives and different goals.

Ummm..their reading and writing skills r on grade level...

So, that was an example of the audists views that oral schools portray...

*smh*

 

[faire_jour]

Ummm..their reading and writing skills r on grade level...

So, that was an example of the audists views that oral schools portray...

*smh*

Where did I ask about reading??? I didn't say the kids couldn't read.

 

[shel90]

But you do not believe that ASL has any "downside"?

Nope...my view is the same for any spoken language too.

It is the lack of access to the language that has the downsides. If u want to put a group of blinds students and use ASL (without tactile) as the language of instruction or language development, then that would be risky cuz the blind kids don't have full access to the language or curriculm like their sighted peers do. Same concept with oral-only deaf ed.

All languages worldwide are equal..no language is better than the other. Anyone who has that view that one language is better than another is exhibting signs of egostrism.

I don't see any languages as having a risk or as having any downsides.

 

[shel90]

Where did I ask about reading??? I didn't say the kids couldn't read.

U said that their English isn't on par with their hearing peers.

So, if one must have good spoken skills to survive on their own, like those oral school's goals are then that's a very audist view on deafness which encourages discrimination by the general public. Those r the kinds of views that hurt many of us because of having our spoken skills being constanstly measured.

 

[Frisky Feline]

Why are there deaf people out there who were raised with ASL butwrite good English?

Why are there hearing people who cant read and write?

If u have the answer to that then u got your answer to your question.

True.

everyone is different. each individual have their own capablility of speaking or asl in writing.