'Open Carry' Law Contoversy: Gun Owner Cited

Steinhauer said:
I sometimes wonder if Benjamin Varner and Eric Plunkett would be with us today if they had been armed.

You are right, you are not being intellectually dishonest. You actually have to possess intellect for that.
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What would you know about intellect? Not something you have ever experienced, Steiny.:cool2:
 
Change of Subject: Five reasons concealed-carry backers in Springfield are optimistic that this is their year
2. The lesson of history

Gun rights like this have been steadily expanding. And in each place they have, opponents have fretted in advance that the streets were going to run with blood and every little traffic altercation would result in deadly shootouts, while supporters insisted that crime would drop because evildoers and the intemperate would never know who might be packing.

There are plenty of anecdotes to support either position. Gun-rights advocates have no end of stories of armed citizens thwarting bad guys as well as statistics indicating that permit-holders are far more law-abiding than average, while the Violence Policy Center in Washington, D.C., keeps a running tally on its website of people killed by concealed handgun permit-holders since May 2007 (it's up to 288).

Academics have sifted through these kinds of claims and counterclaims and have come to opposing conclusions for decades. And having read this research (with sometimes glassy eyes), I'm inclined to agree with the National Academy of Sciences panel that concluded in 2004 that, given the difficulty of isolating all the potential variables, there isn't convincing evidence either way that right-to-carry laws increase or decrease crime rates.

In short, there's no good reason for a state not to issue such permits.
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4. Law enforcement's lowered resistance

Police have traditionally been opponents of concealed-carry laws, but two years ago the Illinois Sheriffs' Association announced its support for the idea and the Illinois Association of Chiefs of Police recently dropped its opposition and adopted the same neutral position staked out by the Illinois State Police.

"We decided that if we stayed opposed, we wouldn't have a seat at the table" during negotiations over amendments police are seeking, said Laimutis Nargelenas, a spokesman for the chiefs. "So we went neutral."
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The February, 2009 news release from the Illinois Sherrifs Association (.pdf) announcing a shift in favor of concealed carry
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Concealed carry has more support in Legislature this year, sponsor says, (March 8, Gatehouse News Service/ Andy Brownfield) House committee advances concealed-carry bill (March 10,Gatehouse News Service/ Andy Brownfield)
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The U.S. Supreme Court: The Heller (D.C. gun ban) ruling and the McDonald (Chicago gun ban) ruling. Read the relevant highlights here. (both gun bans were overturned
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Illinois House Bill 0148, The Family and Personal Protection Act.
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National-Academies.org | Newsroom
A Look at Interventions

Firearms are bought and sold in both formal markets, such as gun shops, and informal ones, such as the underground economy. Market-based interventions aimed at reducing criminals' access to guns include taxes on weapons and ammunition, limits on the number of firearms that can be purchased in a given time period, and gun "buy back" initiatives. Arguments for and against these approaches are largely based on speculation rather than scientific evidence. Data on gun markets -- on how many guns are sold through various channels, or how systematically background checks are performed, for instance -- are virtually nonexistent. Greater attention should be paid to research design and data needs regarding gun markets, the report says. More studies also should be conducted on potential links between firearms policies and suicide rates.

Programs created to prevent gun violence are common in the nation's public schools. However, the actual effects of particular programs on violence and injury rates are difficult to predict, the report says. Some studies suggest that children's curiosity and teenagers' attraction to risk make them resistant to the programs or that the projects actually increase the appeal of guns. But few programs have been adequately evaluated. Gun-safety technologies, such as trigger locks, also have been proposed as a way to prevent injuries. Yet how these technologies affect injury rates remains unknown. Government programs for prevention of firearm violence should include evaluation.

Available scientific evidence on how policing interventions and tougher sentencing policies affect firearms violence is both limited and mixed, the report adds. Several cities, including Boston and Richmond, Va., have implemented highly publicized programs designed to suppress crime and gun offenses. It is difficult to gauge the value of the measures because social and economic factors behind criminal acts are often complex and interwoven, and the efforts are narrow in scope. Without much better research, the benefits and costs of policing and sentencing interventions remain largely unknown.

Data limitations are immense in the study of firearms and violence, the committee emphasized. The report calls for the development of a National Violent Death Reporting System and a National Incident-Based Reporting System. No single data system can answer all questions about violent events, but it is important to start collecting accurate and reliable information that describes basic facts about violent injuries and deaths.

The report includes a dissenting opinion written by one committee member regarding the effects of right-to-carry laws on homicide rates, and a response by the committee.

The study was sponsored by the National Institute of Justice, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Joyce Foundation, Annie E. Casey Foundation, and the David and Lucile Packard Foundation. The National Research Council is the principal operating arm of the National Academy of Sciences and the National Academy of Engineering. It is a private, nonprofit institution that provides science and technology advice under a congressional charter. A committee roster follows.
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and I thought you said your statistic and statement were the absolute truth. and yet.... the agencies and experts disagreed with your conclusion and your interpretation of the statistics and data compiled together.

This is the prime example of Intellectual Dishonesty on your part. shame on you. No wonder you've been giving me a run-around.
 
Jiro said:
National-Academies.org | Newsroom


and I thought you said your statistic and statement were the absolute truth. and yet.... the agencies and experts disagreed with your conclusion and your interpretation of the statistics and data compiled together.

This is the prime example of Intellectual Dishonesty on your part. shame on you. No wonder you've been giving me a run-around.
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What the hell are you ranting about now?:dizzy: You've progressed from silly, to boring, to downright incomprehensible. You are embarrassing yourself. Stop.
 
jillio said:
What the hell are you ranting about now?:dizzy: You've progressed from silly, to boring, to downright incomprehensible. You are embarrassing yourself. Stop.
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let's see...

Jiro said:
I'm wondering why do you keep saying "ignore"?

Are you telling me that your interpretation of this so-called statistics is the whole truth and nothing but the truth? and also - are you telling me that what naisho posted is referring to CCW holders?
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jillio said:
I'm telling you the numbers are there. They speak for themselves.:roll:
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jillio said:
Maybe you didn't look hard enough. It is in the CDC stats.:dunno2:
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jillio said:
You have to use the stats for accidental deaths across all ages, the number of injuries/deaths from firearms, and the stats on childhood death, the stats on weapons fired in actual self defense that was deemed necessary, etc. Somewhere the statistical calculations have been done using CDC data. Let me look for it. I posted it a while back in another thread.

Survey response data is not really reliable.
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so since you have read a FULL report (which I just gave you) compiled by the study that was sponsored by the National Institute of Justice, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Joyce Foundation, Annie E. Casey Foundation, and the David and Lucile Packard Foundation....

do you mean to tell me that its report is in COMPLETE agreement with your statements?
 
jillio said:
What the hell are you ranting about now?:dizzy: You've progressed from silly, to boring, to downright incomprehensible. You are embarrassing yourself. Stop.
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I understand him just fine :dunno:

... must be you.
 
Are you claiming you know more about gun safety than all of the US Government agencies combined?
 
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jillio said:
Oh, GAWD! Not that old apples to oranges comparison again!:laugh2:
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no its the typical idea that people like you, use. If anyone person dies from something or a situation. Its used ruin it for the rest of us.

There is nothing 100% safe
 
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. ---Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis (1952)

I think thwe Hoplophobes need to stop forcing their opinions and values on the rest of us who are sexually and emotionally mature.



Hoplophobia (n.): The irrational fear of weapons, correctly described by
Freud as "a sign of emotional and sexual immaturity". Hoplophobia, like
homophobia, is a displacement symptom; hoplophobes fear their own
"forbidden" feelings and urges to commit violence. This would be
harmless, except that they project these feelings onto others. The
sequelae of this neurosis include irrational and dangerous behaviors
such as passing "gun-control" laws and trashing the Constitution.
-- Eric S. Raymond
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Steinhauer said:
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. ---Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis (1952)

I think thwe Hoplophobes need to stop forcing their opinions and values on the rest of us who are sexually and emotionally mature.
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you're too much. I almost choked on my own phlegm.
 
Doug5 said:
no its the typical idea that people like you, use. If anyone person dies from something or a situation. Its used ruin it for the rest of us.

There is nothing 100% safe
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Nope. It is the argument that people who don't know how to compare like situation to like situation use. That is why the bottom falls out of their position.:cool2:
 
Steinhauer said:
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. ---Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis (1952)

I think thwe Hoplophobes need to stop forcing their opinions and values on the rest of us who are sexually and emotionally mature.
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I'm not afraid of weapons. I'm afraid of the consequences of people like you having access to weapons. Big difference.:cool2:
 
Jiro said:
so since you have read a FULL report (which I just gave you) compiled by the study that was sponsored by the National Institute of Justice, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Joyce Foundation, Annie E. Casey Foundation, and the David and Lucile Packard Foundation....

do you mean to tell me that its report is in COMPLETE agreement with your statements?
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so Jillio...... yes or no?
 
jillio said:
I'm not afraid of weapons. I'm afraid of the consequences of people like you having access to weapons. Big difference.:cool2:
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People like me? Coming from a freepy feminazi :roll:

You have made some pretty ridiculous comments in this thread. If you only knew who was reading them ...

"Columbine was a crime of passion .... "
 
Steinhauer said:
People like me? Coming from a freepy feminazi :roll:

You have made some pretty ridiculous comments in this thread. If you only knew who was reading them ...

"Columbine was a crime of passion .... "
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Yep, people like you.:cool2:

You still need to work on your technique. That is a poor attempt at an insult. LOL
I know who's reading them. And I also know who is unable to understand them.:cool2:

Don't make me pull up some of the stuff you have said, Steiny. But we can start with this brilliant question: "Weren't they protesting segregation? LOL
 
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