'Open Carry' Law Contoversy: Gun Owner Cited

[jillio]

Environmental Restrictions involving guns? such as?

Do you know how you can purchase a gun in 40+ states? You need a driver license. Let me guess..... you didn't know that either?

Are you really that dense? If you can't carry a gun into a school building, or within a certain distance of a school building that is an environmental restriction. School property = environment. Can't take it there? You have an environmental restriction.

Did you think environment only meant trees and rivers and stuff?

Driver's license is not comparable to a gun license. But keep using such ridiculous comparisons. You ruin your own argument without me having to do anything.

 

[Reba]

... There are very few places where a CCW holder cannot legally have their weapon. Restrictions are few. And there need to be far more, including more restrictions on who can actually legally carry a concealed weapon.

(M) A permit issued pursuant to this section does not authorize a permit holder to carry a concealable weapon into a:

(1) police, sheriff, or highway patrol station or any other law enforcement office or facility;

(2) detention facility, prison, or jail or any other correctional facility or office;

(3) courthouse or courtroom;

(4) polling place on election days;

(5) office of or the business meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special purpose district;

(6) school or college athletic event not related to firearms;

(7) daycare facility or pre school facility;

(8) place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law;

(9) church or other established religious sanctuary unless express permission is given by the appropriate church official or governing body; or

(10) hospital, medical clinic, doctor’s office, or any other facility where medical services or procedures are performed unless expressly authorized by the employer.

A person who wilfully violates a provision of this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not less than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than one year, or both, at the discretion of the court and have his permit revoked for five years.

Nothing contained herein may be construed to alter or affect the provisions of Sections 10 11 320, 16 23 420, 16 23 430, 16 23 465, 44 23 1080, 44 52 165, 50 9 830, and 51 3 145.

 

[jillio]

but is my interpretation of your belief correct? if not - which part is wrong?

Incorrect. And, btw, since you keep bringing it up, posting those words as a "quote" is intellectual dishonesty. You knew specifically that it was an interpretation and a paraphrase, not a quote.

 

[jillio]

(M) A permit issued pursuant to this section does not authorize a permit holder to carry a concealable weapon into a:

(1) police, sheriff, or highway patrol station or any other law enforcement office or facility;

(2) detention facility, prison, or jail or any other correctional facility or office;

(3) courthouse or courtroom;

(4) polling place on election days;

(5) office of or the business meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special purpose district;

(6) school or college athletic event not related to firearms;

(7) daycare facility or pre school facility;

(8) place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law;

(9) church or other established religious sanctuary unless express permission is given by the appropriate church official or governing body; or

(10) hospital, medical clinic, doctor’s office, or any other facility where medical services or procedures are performed unless expressly authorized by the employer.

A person who wilfully violates a provision of this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not less than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than one year, or both, at the discretion of the court and have his permit revoked for five years.

Nothing contained herein may be construed to alter or affect the provisions of Sections 10 11 320, 16 23 420, 16 23 430, 16 23 465, 44 23 1080, 44 52 165, 50 9 830, and 51 3 145.

Right. Environmental restrictions.

 

[Jiro]

Are you really that dense? If you can't carry a gun into a school building, or within a certain distance of a school building that is an environmental restriction. School property = environment. Can't take it there? You have an environmental restriction.

Did you think environment only meant trees and rivers and stuff?

I googled and have found nothing that resembles to what you speak of - "Environmental Restriction". All I see is environmentalists demanding shooting ranges to be shut down because of lead poisoning or whatnot.

Driver's license is not comparable to a gun license. But keep using such ridiculous comparisons. You ruin your own argument without me having to do anything.

but..... you need a driver license in order to buy a gun except in NJ and NY.

 

[Jiro]

Right. Environmental restrictions.

can you please post an official source that used the term "Environmental Restriction" in context of firearm?

 

[DeafCaroline]

can you please post an official source that speaks of "Environmental Restriction" in context of firearm?

I think it's rather clear what jillio meant by environmental restrictions is where one is restricted from carrying arms. At least I would have interpreted it that way.

You're both right in this instance and it's starting to appear to be a game of fighting over semantics even though I'm pretty sure you both know exactly what the other person meant.

 

[jillio]

I googled and have found nothing that resembles to what you speak of - "Environmental Restriction". All I see is environmentalists demanding shooting ranges to be shut down because of lead poisoning or whatnot.

What are you talking about? Environmental restriction is a descriptive term applied to restrictions that occur in the environment. Already explained that to you. Yep, appears you are still looking at "environment" as being geographical. :roll:
but..... you need a driver license in order to buy a gun except in NJ and NY.

Or, a state ID.

 

[Jiro]

I think it's rather clear what jillio meant by environmental restrictions is where one is restricted from carrying arms. At least I would have interpreted it that way.

You're both right in this instance and it's starting to appear to be a game of fighting over semantics even though I'm pretty sure you both know exactly what the other person meant.

um.... I really had no idea what she meant by environmental restriction. I thought it was something like - no shooting at park because of lead poisoning or something.

again - if you can show me anything in google that resembles to what jillio speaks of.... then please do but I haven't been able to find any and I'll assume that you haven't been able to find any either so let's not play this silly game where everybody should understand what jillio says when such term does not exist.

 

[Jiro]

What are you talking about? Environmental restriction is a descriptive term applied to restrictions that occur in the environment. Already explained that to you. Yep, appears you are still looking at "environment" as being geographical.

I googled with this keyword - "environmental restrictions firearms guns" and all I got is environmentalists demanding for closure of shooting ranges and military training ground.

Or, a state ID.

there you go. it's a valid comparison. very few states... probably 3-4 states in America require Firearm License but what I do know for sure is that NJ and NY do require it. I don't know about other states.

 

[Jiro]

Incorrect. And, btw, since you keep bringing it up, posting those words as a "quote" is intellectual dishonesty. You knew specifically that it was an interpretation and a paraphrase, not a quote.

oh? then I apologize for misinterpreting your post.

this is what you said -

How many CCWs carry other people's guns? Generally, they would be the ones who are in a dangerous situation as the result of job duties. I have already said that I have no problem with people having CCWs when they need and need can be supported. I have trouble with CCWs being abused by people that are never in a dangerous situation, or could use other measures, carrying one.

and this is what I interpreted your post as

so please do correct me if I'm wrong. You are hoping to influence a change in the laws that would prohibit law-abiding citizens from carrying concealed weapons in public except those whose duties justify it such as off-duty police and security guards?

I expect you to say something like "also except those who ABSOLUTELY needs it" so please do give more examples of who would ABSOLUTELY needs it for what reason?

rape victim? abuse victim? who exactly?

since you said my interpretation of your post is incorrect. I'll keep it simple -

You stated -

Generally, they would be the ones who are in a dangerous situation as the result of job duties.

so who else can carry concealed weapons beside off-duty officers and security guards?

rape victims? assault victims?

 

[jillio]

um.... I really had no idea what she meant by environmental restriction. I thought it was something like - no shooting at park because of lead poisoning or something.

again - if you can show me anything in google that resembles to what jillio speaks of.... then please do but I haven't been able to find any and I'll assume that you haven't been able to find any either so let's not play this silly game where everybody should understand what jillio says when such term does not exist.

You are beginning to bore me. I have explained what is meant by environmental restrictions. Your refusal to process it is not my problem. But feel free to continue in your endeavor. It is making you look witless.

 

[Jiro]

Debunking specious arguments against concealed carry – Pt. 2 - The Broadside : Colorado Springs Gazette, CO

Hoplophobe claim: “Tactical considerations are not part of CCW training and certification, so civilians cannot be trusted to do the proper thing in a mass shooting scenario and therefore innocent civilians will get killed.”

In the better classes tactics are mentioned, but no, it’s not the focus of the CCW class, which is about basic firearms safety, proficiency and the law. But as has been belabored by those of us who actually know what we’re talking about, every CCW instructor tells his students that the permit class is merely the first step in becoming qualified and proficient with a handgun, and that extensive and ongoing training is a very good idea. And given the number of people who enroll in the advanced classes I’m familiar with, I’d say that the majority of people who obtain CCW permits do go on to obtain further training. But even if they don’t, the idea that they should be disarmed and thus rendered defenseless based on the specious argument that they might miss their target in a gunfight is unsupportable, particularly since police officers miss their targets on an alarmingly routine basis. Your demand for such a standard of perfection is irrational and is just an excuse, not a valid objection.

Hoplophobe claim: “You might have a gun, but an insane person with nothing to lose is going to shoot you without hesitation or remorse.”

Perhaps. This just goes to show you that sometimes you die. However, I’d rather die on my feet, exchanging fire with him than trembling on my knees, waiting for a bullet in the back of the head. Your mileage may vary.

Hoplophobe claim: “ You gun nuts are more concerned with yourself and you have no regard to the safety and well-being of anyone else around you.”

This is a bald-faced and reprehensible lie. I’ve carried a gun for 25 years because I’m concerned about the safety of others to a much greater degree than I am about my own safety. There is no evidence to suggest that those who choose to be armed are not fully cognizant of the risk to others in a gunfight. Factually speaking, civilians are eleven times less likely to shoot when faced with a deadly threat than police officers are. This indicates a high degree of concern with collateral damage, to the point where they don’t shoot when perhaps they should.

Worse, you suggest that people should not carry defensive arms because in a gunfight, a bystander might be injured, and you thereby argue that a citizen has a duty to simply capitulate to an armed aggressor and be victimized, raped, robbed or murdered because it’s selfish to defend themselves if anybody else might possibly be hurt. What a morally bankrupt argument. What a disgusting display of utter disregard for individual rights. What a noxious and pernicious lie as well, to suggest that armed citizens are going to disregard the safety of others and shoot wildly when attacked.

It’s an utter lie as demonstrated by the fact that the millions of citizens like me who do carry firearms simply do not discharge them recklessly in crowded places. I cannot think of a single notable incident where a citizen licensed for concealed carry has so much as wounded a bystander during a shootout. If what you suggest were even remotely true, we’d see Hollywood-style masses of injured or killed bystanders clogging emergency rooms. We don’t, and I conclude that you’ve been watching too many “Die Hard” movies.

 

[jillio]

oh? then I apologize for misinterpreting your post.

this is what you said -


and this is what I interpreted your post as


since you said my interpretation of your post is incorrect. I'll keep it simple -

You stated -

so who else can carry concealed weapons beside off-duty officers and security guards?

rape victims? assault victims?

Stop interpreting and just read and comprehend.:roll:

 

[Jiro]

Answers to the Most Common Arguments Against Concealed Carry on College Campuses

Argument: "Guns on campus would lead to an escalation in violent crime."

Answer: "Since the fall semester of 2006, state law has allowed licensed individuals to carry concealed handguns on the campuses of all nine public colleges in Utah. Concealed carry has been allowed at Colorado State University (Fort Collins, CO) for more than five years and at Blue Ridge Community College (Weyers Cave, VA) for more than thirteen years. After allowing concealed carry on campus for a combined total of more than seventy semesters, none of these eleven schools have seen a single resulting incident of gun violence, a single gun accident, or a single gun theft. Likewise, none of the forty ‘right-to-carry’ states have seen an increased rate of gun violence since legalizing concealed carry, despite the fact that licensed citizens in those states regularly carry concealed handguns in places like office buildings, movie theaters, grocery stores, shopping malls, restaurants, churches, banks, etc. Numerous studies*, including studies by University of Maryland senior research scientist John Lott, University of Georgia professor David Mustard, engineering statistician William Sturdevant, and various state agencies, show that concealed handgun license holders are five times less likely than non-license holders to commit violent crimes."

*“Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns,” John Lott and David Mustard, Journal of Legal Studies (v.26, no.1, pages 1-68, January 1997); “An Analysis of the Arrest Rate of Texas Concealed Handgun License Holders as Compared to the Arrest Rate of the Entire Texas Population,” William E. Sturdevant, September 1, 2000; Florida Department of Justice statistics, 1998; Florida Department of State, “Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report,” 1998; Texas Department of Public Safety and the U.S. Census Bureau, reported in San Antonio Express-News, September 2000; Texas Department of Corrections data, 1996-2000, compiled by the Texas State Rifle Association

Argument: "Guns on campus would lead to an increased number of suicides by college students."

Answer: "Studies* show that 90% of suicides are committed in the home. Because most college students over the age of twenty-one (the minimum age to obtain a concealed handgun license in most states) live off campus, allowing concealed carry on college campuses would have very little impact on the ability of college students to possess firearms in their homes and, therefore, little to no impact on the overall number of suicides by college students."

*“Youth and Adolescent Suicide: A Guide for Educators,” Oregon Resiliency Project, University of Oregon, 2003; After Suicide: A Ray of Hope for Those Left Behind, Eleanora Betsy Ross, 2001

NOTE: At the University of Texas—a major university with over 50,000 students—a quick comparison of campus housing statistics and concealed handgun licensing statistics reveals that there would likely be no more than ten to twenty concealed handgun license holders living in on-campus housing.

Argument: "Guns on campus would distract from the learning environment."

Answer: "Ask anyone in a ‘right to carry’ state when he or she last noticed another person carrying a concealed handgun. The word 'concealed' is there for a reason. Concealed handguns would no more distract college students from learning than they currently distract moviegoers from enjoying movies or office workers from doing their jobs.

“In most states with ‘shall-issue’ concealed carry laws, the rate of concealed carry is about 1%. That means that one person out of 100 is licensed to carry a concealed handgun. Therefore, statistically speaking, a packed 300-seat movie theater contains three individuals legally carrying concealed handguns, and a shopping mall crowded with 1,000 shoppers contains ten individuals legally carrying concealed handguns. Students who aren't too afraid to attend movies or go shopping and who aren't distracted from learning by the knowledge that a classmate might be illegally carrying a firearm shouldn't be distracted from learning by the knowledge that a classmate might be legally carrying a firearm.”

Argument: "Colleges are too crowded to safely allow the carry of concealed weapons."

Answer: "Colleges are no more crowded than movie theaters, office buildings, shopping malls, and numerous other locations where concealed handgun license holders are already allowed to carry concealed handguns. The widespread passage of shall-issue concealed carry laws has not led to spates of shootings or gun thefts at those locations."

Argument: "A person with a gun could ‘snap’ and go on a killing spree."

Answer: "Contrary to popular myth, most psychiatric professionals agree that the notion of a previously sane, well-adjusted person simply ‘snapping’ and becoming violent is not supported by case evidence. A Secret Service study* into school shootings concluded that school shooters do not simply snap and that a person’s downward spiral toward violence is typically accompanied by numerous warning signs."

*“Safe School Initiative: An Interim Report on the Prevention of Targeted Violence in Schools,” U.S. Secret Service National Threat Assessment Center in collaboration with the U.S. Department of Education with support from the National Institute of Justice, Co-Directors Bryan Vossekuil, Marissa Reddy PhD, Robert Fein PhD, October 2000

Argument: "A dangerous person might jump someone who is carrying a gun, take the gun, and use it to do harm."

Answer: "Even assuming that this hypothetical dangerous person knew that an individual was carrying a concealed handgun, which is unlikely, there are much easier ways for a criminal to acquire a firearm than by assaulting an armed individual."

Argument: "It’s possible that a gun might go off by accident."

Answer: "Accidental discharges are very rare—particularly because modern firearms feature multiple safety features and because a handgun’s trigger is typically not exposed when it is concealed—and only a small fraction of accidental discharges result in injury. SCCC feels that it is wrong to deny citizens a right simply because that right is accompanied by a negligible risk."

NOTE: Only about 2% of all firearm-related deaths in the U.S. are accidental, and most of those are hunting accidents and accidents involving firearms being openly handled in an unsafe manner. A person is five times more likely to accidentally drown, five times more likely to accidentally die in a fire, 29 times more likely to die in an accidental fall, and 32 times more likely to die from accidental poisoning than to die from an accidental gunshot wound.

ADDITIONAL NOTE: The accidental discharge that occurred in the cockpit of a U.S. Airways jet, on March 22, 2008, occurred during the application of a poorly designed trigger lock, which FAA regulations require be in place during landing.

Argument: "Colleges are emotionally volatile environments. Allowing guns on campus will turn classroom debates into crime scenes."

Answer: "Before shall-issue concealed carry laws were passed throughout the United States, opponents claimed that such laws would turn disputes over parking spaces and traffic accidents into shootouts. This did not prove to be the case. The same responsible adults—age twenty-one and above—now asking to be allowed to carry their concealed handguns on college campuses are already allowed to do so virtually everywhere else. They clearly do not let their emotions get the better of them in other environments; therefore, no less should be expected of them on college campuses."

 

[Jiro]

Stop interpreting and just read and comprehend.:roll:

so who else can carry concealed weapons beside off-duty officers and security guards?

rape victims? assault victims?

 

[Reba]

SECTION 16-23-430. Carrying weapons on school property; concealed weapons.

(A) It shall be unlawful for any person, except state, county, or municipal law enforcement officers or personnel authorized by school officials, to carry on his person, while on any elementary or secondary school property, a knife, with a blade over two inches long, a blackjack, a metal pipe or pole, firearms, or any other type of weapon, device, or object which may be used to inflict bodily injury or death.

(B) This section does not apply to a person who is authorized to carry a concealed weapon pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23 when the weapon remains inside an attended or locked motor vehicle and is secured in a closed glove compartment, closed console, closed trunk, or in a closed container secured by an integral fastener and transported in the luggage compartment of the vehicle.

(C) A person who violates the provisions of this section is guilty of a felony and, upon conviction, must be fined not more than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. Any weapon or object used in violation of this section may be confiscated by the law enforcement division making the arrest.

 

[jillio]

SECTION 16-23-430. Carrying weapons on school property; concealed weapons.

(A) It shall be unlawful for any person, except state, county, or municipal law enforcement officers or personnel authorized by school officials, to carry on his person, while on any elementary or secondary school property, a knife, with a blade over two inches long, a blackjack, a metal pipe or pole, firearms, or any other type of weapon, device, or object which may be used to inflict bodily injury or death.

(B) This section does not apply to a person who is authorized to carry a concealed weapon pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23 when the weapon remains inside an attended or locked motor vehicle and is secured in a closed glove compartment, closed console, closed trunk, or in a closed container secured by an integral fastener and transported in the luggage compartment of the vehicle.

(C) A person who violates the provisions of this section is guilty of a felony and, upon conviction, must be fined not more than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. Any weapon or object used in violation of this section may be confiscated by the law enforcement division making the arrest.

More environmental restrictions.

 

[Jiro]

More environmental restrictions.

can you provide an official source that speaks of "Environmental Restrictions" in context of firearm restriction?

 

[Steinhauer]

Are you really that dense? If you can't carry a gun into a school building, or within a certain distance of a school building that is an environmental restriction. School property = environment. Can't take it there? You have an environmental restriction.

Did you think environment only meant trees and rivers and stuff?

Driver's license is not comparable to a gun license. But keep using such ridiculous comparisons. You ruin your own argument without me having to do anything.

I sometimes wonder if Benjamin Varner and Eric Plunkett would be with us today if they had been armed.

You are right, you are not being intellectually dishonest. You actually have to possess intellect for that.