'Open Carry' Law Contoversy: Gun Owner Cited

Jiro said:
so you are in direct support of gun ban (or high gun restriction law)? and you believe LEO is citizen's Amendment 2?
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Stop making assumptions in an attempt to recover.:laugh2:
 
jillio said:
That's why we have LEO's.:cool2: They are trained to make those decisions, and d so often. Citizens aren't and don't.
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Actually, they can.. I looked up the incident and the whole situation on that motel shooting.

It occurred in Columbus, Ohio, 5 years ago. The then suspect's (now convicted) name is ANTOINE M STEPHENS, you can find him listed in the Ohio offender registry, he has been charged with 1st degree Felony.
Offender Details

Second, Ohio Deadly Force law states:

BE IT ENACTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE STATE OF OHIO

To enact sections 2305.61, 2305.62, 2305.63, 2306.64, 2305.65, and 2305.66 and to repeal section 2305.40 of the Revised Code to provide statutory criteria for when a person may use force or deadly force to defend the person or another person or to prevent or terminate a trespass on or illegal interference with property; to establish a presumption related to use of defensive force intended or likely to cause death or serious physical harm of when the user of the defensive force holds a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious physical harm; to provide that a person authorized to use deadly force or defensive force intended or likely to cause death or serious physical harm generally does not have a duty to retreat; and to repeal the existing statutory provisions regarding the immunity of an owner, lessee, or renter of real property as to self-defense or defense of others.
(Truncated whole document)


Third, the motel clerk was cleared in court and actually posted a response online about it. You can see it here:

Originally Posted by The Clerk
Thanks for all the responses. My roomate is excist and reflect. I'd like to start out saying that it looks as though I am shooting close to the baby, but I am not. The camera angle makes it look as though the little girl is right there, but is a good deal away. Even if the mother didn't grab the baby, the shots wouldn't have come close I don't think, but if the baby was in the way, I just wouldn't have pulled the trigger. The second thing I'd like to say is that I didn't get up in the morning saying I would sure love to pop someone today. The robber chose the time and the place, I didn't ask for it. There are two types of people in this world, those who will take action and those that won't. I assessed the risk as fast as I could at that exact moment. A .45 long colt looks very menacing when your on the buisness end of it. I have been tought to meet force with force, and to open up quick and violently. Things may have played out differntly had my coworker not have been there. Maybe I would have tried to draw down, maybe I wouldn't have, or maybe I would have looked for another oppritunity to draw. I had to get behind her so he couldn't see what was going on. I brought my gun up on to target and was in the middle of yelling for him to drop the weapon when he jumped back and pullled the gun up. I ducked out of the way for a moment and popped back up firing when my weapon was on target.

As far as using the front sights, I did, using my flash sight picture. Now with shooting in the back, yes, he got nailed in the back, but the time from when my gun clears my holster to when he's laying on the ground is roughly 2.9 seconds. That doesn't give you a whole lot of time to think, but even so, if he didn't want to get shot, he should have put the weapon down. You don't make a sudden movement, especially with a gun in your hand in that type of situation. I feel confident in my skills as I shoot almost every weekend, I hold a CCW, and am also an NRA instructor for home firearm safety, basic pistol, and personal protection. No one knows how they are going to respond to a situation when they get thrust into it. I felt very threatend and did what I have been tought to do.

Whoever called B.S on excist and reflect not bieng my friend, here is a pic. I also have a profile on Gunsnet.net, I am Rooftop voter on there which this is posted at I guess too. We regularly use each others accounts since we use the same computer each of our profiles pops up, no real need to log out and then back in.

Now as far as people bieng in the way and all that, I doubt you will ever get perfect conditions. You respond to situations as they come and make adjustments accordingly. If some crazy asshole opens fire in a mall, some of you with CCW may want to run, which is fine, it's a natural reaction and perfectly normal. I myself along with a few other would probably decide to take cover and stop the threat. I believe it is my job while armed to not only protect myself, but others that may be in harms way and that I believe I am in a position to help. Some of you may think that's the wrong way to think, which is also ok, but to each his own. I have to make my decisions as you may have to make yours, and nobody gets to make that decision for you.

By the way, the woman in the video was not pissed, actually just the opposite. She thanked me a whole lot, and so did my co worker. She also wrote me a long letter expressing her gratitude, and is now a firearm owner waiting to get a ccw. I was never charged with anything. The police, aswell as the prosecutors viewed this in a very positive light, especially with all the witness statements in my favor. The police tend to look at things more favorably when the person who gets hurt is a multiple felon in the middle of commiting a few more felonys.
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That's about it, the shooting was completely justified in the end.
 
naisho said:
Actually, they can.. I looked up the incident and the whole situation on that motel shooting.

It occurred in Columbus, Ohio, 5 years ago. The suspect's name is ANTOINE M STEPHENS, you can find him listed in the Ohio offender registry, he has been charged with 1st degree Felony.
Offender Details

Second, Ohio Deadly Force law states:

BE IT ENACTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE STATE OF OHIO

To enact sections 2305.61, 2305.62, 2305.63, 2306.64, 2305.65, and 2305.66 and to repeal section 2305.40 of the Revised Code to provide statutory criteria for when a person may use force or deadly force to defend the person or another person or to prevent or terminate a trespass on or illegal interference with property; to establish a presumption related to use of defensive force intended or likely to cause death or serious physical harm of when the user of the defensive force holds a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious physical harm; to provide that a person authorized to use deadly force or defensive force intended or likely to cause death or serious physical harm generally does not have a duty to retreat; and to repeal the existing statutory provisions regarding the immunity of an owner, lessee, or renter of real property as to self-defense or defense of others.


Third, the motel clerk was cleared in court and actually posted a response online about it. You can see it here:



That's about it, the shooting was completely justified in the end.
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In case you missed it, we are talking about NJ law.:cool2:

I already know what Ohio's law is. Jiro is just a tad confused about NJ law.

But, once again, you can't extrapolate one case to an entire population. You know better than that, naisho.
 
jillio said:
Read the law, Jiro. It will answer all of your questions. You stated that it was illegal to defend yourself in the state of New Jersey. It isn't. Period.
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I have and I did and I am licensed in this state. You seem to know NJ laws quite well so let's answer my question, shall we?

is it illegal for me to take gun outside my home and carry it on myself at parking lot?
 
Jiro said:
I have and I did and I am licensed in this state. You seem to know NJ laws quite well so let's answer my question, shall we?

is it illegal for me to take gun outside my home and carry it on myself at parking lot?
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It isn't about me knowing NJ law. I posted the link so you could read the law as it is on the books. Evidently, that isn't good enough for you.

These silly games are beginning to get very boring. See you!:wave:
 
jillio said:
It isn't about me knowing NJ law. I posted the link so you could read the law as it is on the books. Evidently, that isn't good enough for you.

These silly games are beginning to get very boring. See you!:wave:
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:)

there you go. It is in fact illegal for me to bring a gun outside my house and to carry it on me. it is illegal for me to defend myself against armed thug with a gun.
 
Jiro said:
:)

there you go. It is in fact illegal for me to bring a gun outside my house and to carry it on me. it is illegal for me to defend myself against armed thug with a gun.
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It is not illegal for you to defend yourself in New Jersey. That is what you claimed. The law states that you can not only defend yourself, you can use deadly force. End of discussion. You were wrong.:wave:
 
jillio said:
It is not illegal for you to defend yourself in New Jersey. That is what you claimed. The law states that you can not only defend yourself, you can use deadly force. End of discussion. You were wrong.:wave:
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is it illegal for me to take gun outside my home and carry it on myself at parking lot?

what's the matter? refusing to answer that simple question.... we both know why you're refusing to answer it.
 
jillio said:
But, once again, you can't extrapolate one case to an entire population. You know better than that, naisho.
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Just saw your edit, well, of course, my last few responses in this thread were all made on that the basis of the Columbus motel robbery incident. I did not and still do not state it applies to anyone, other than the deadly force law, it is different for civilians in the US, but the same for law enforcement. I'm merely trying to show you that the actions of the CCW holder were justified, and that the use of a drawn gun can be classified under act of deadly force which was legal there for Ohio's terms. It doesn't matter (to the law) if it looked like he was only going to rob the motel, even if it was really a BB gun.

In the end that particular case went the way it legally should have, but if we want to talk till we're blue on the basis of moral grounds then we can exchange points all day but it'll never get anywhere. Legally, again, much against anyone's dismay, that CCW civilian is waived from any wrongdoing.

If we don't like these kind of laws being around, then we gotta abolish them. People should vote/work to appeal those laws if they are not appreciated.
 
naisho said:
Just saw your edit, well, of course, my last few responses in this thread were all made on that the basis of the Columbus motel robbery incident. I did not and still do not state it applies to anyone, other than the deadly force law, it is different for civilians in the US, but the same for law enforcement. I'm merely trying to show you that the actions of the CCW holder were justified, and that the use of a drawn gun can be classified under act of deadly force which was legal there for Ohio's terms. It doesn't matter (to the law) if it looked like he was only going to rob the motel, even if it was really a BB gun.

In the end that particular case went the way it legally should have, but if we want to talk till we're blue on the basis of moral grounds then we can exchange points all day but it'll never get anywhere. Legally, again, much against anyone's dismay, that CCW civilian is waived from any wrongdoing.

If we don't like these kind of laws being around, then we gotta abolish them. People should vote/work to appeal those laws if they are not appreciated.
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exactly. let us look at FACTS.

1. Only 2 states do not issue CCW permit because it's illegal - Wisconsin and Illinois
2. Only 4 states are extremely restrictive in issuing CCW permit - CA, NJ, NY, MD
3. Rest of the states issue CCW permit without restriction or none of bureaucratic nonsense.
4. Several states allow students with CCW on college campuses
5. majority of CCW holders do not always pack a heat
6. I've been a CCW holder in over 40 states for a couple years now and during that time period, I've never ever carried a gun in public

hhhmmmmm......... in those states with highly-restrictive gun laws... how's it going?
 
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Jiro said:
exactly. let us look at FACTS.

6. I've been a CCW holder in over 40 states for a couple years now and during that time period, I've never ever carried a gun in public
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I've had mine for over nine years. I think I carried mine concealed once, just to get used to the feel.
 
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