It's A Parents Decision

[kayla123]

I am very passed on this thread, and don't know what's going on here, but I want to post my debate.

Even though I have a CI myself, I think parent's decision on newborn pro deaf baby to get CI is VERY VERY VERY wrong. Also I think it should be illegal.

The CI is a surgery option, not a communication option. If you want to find a cheaper way, just let the children to go to deaf school and stay there, let that children be happy what he/she is. You absolute don't have to learn sign, you can just write to your children! Simple. Or maybe you can make a home sign language. That is the cheapest way instead trying to rip government off, or wasting lot of money on the CI.

Also the CI do not help me to learn how to talk. It only help me to understand the sounds, but for my talking, no, not really. I only can talk very slowly, at very simple words.

If my children are hearing, I am deaf, would I force my children to sign? Of course not. It is UP to the children. If my hearing children don't want to learn the sign, fine with me, we can write.

It always hurt my feelings when parents say "It's not your business, that is my decision for our children". I feel like what about the children? Is that what children want? Will that children be happy with the parent's decision?

I believe those parents who decide that way absolute don't care about the children, but only the best for them.

Sorry for the angry response, but I just don't like the view of parent's decision.

First of all you were implanted older and thats why you did'nt learn to speak. Second of all i really don't care that sending my child to a deaf school would be cheaper. That has to be one of the most ridiculous excuses i've heard. My daughters implant was worth every cent that was spent on it, so please don't put a price on my daughters communication skills. Why in the world would i want to communicate with my own daughter with a paper and pencil?? Of course i would've make every effort to learn sign a lot sooner if i had noticed her oral language failing her. She will get a better education being mainstreamed especially after finding out that most kids in deaf schools graduate 8th grade with a 4th grade reading level.

 

[shel90]

Thanks, Shel. Well, I just thought if you put out what I know must be some positive things to say about some successful oral kids you see all the time, that you would be perceived as presenting a balanced view to the couple of posters who are getting to be a thorn in your side. So can you expound a little on the successful oralists you see daily? Besides speech therapy?

Thanks again and hang in there....

One example...there is a fist grader in the regular class at my school who is hard of hearing. She enjoys reading to herself using spoken language and talking with the hearing teachers without signing. She is doing well at being able to coverse without signing but there r times she needs ASL to help her to learn new and difficult concepts..once she masters them, she will alternate between ASL and spoken English. She yaps allll day with some of the other students who have CIs or are hard of hearing. I think it is awesome that she can do both and feel so confident in herself. Many of the deaf students who have no speech skills see that and they ask to take speech classes so the therapists recommends it to the parents. Nobody is saying "NO!" to speech therapy at the deaf schools despite what some people say.

I know one deaf teacher who has two deaf daughters who goes to the deaf high school. I went to the Eastern Deaf Timberfest last summer and he was there with his family. Since I had kids, my hubby and I hung out at the pond and several times I saw one of his daughters hanging out with the hearing guys who worked at the campgrounds. They didn't know sign but from what I saw she was doing fine chatting with them. She could pass for a hearing girl and she did interpret for her deaf girlfriends who didn't have any speech skills. I was shocked so I asked her father about it and he was like "yea, we put her in speech therapy when she was smal to see how she does and she just did well with it." His other daughter didn't like speech therapy and resisted it so they stopped making her go. It was so neat to see her alternate between both worlds and it was like u can see that she has confidence in herself. I just consider that so awesome.

Like some deaf people who say they r mad at their parents for implanting them, I am mad that I was told that I was too smart for sign language and didn't need it cuz I did just fine in the hearing world. Academically, yes I did great but socially/emotionally, I was a mess. I wonder if I had both would I be a much better adjusted person growing up? I can't live with the "what ifs" cuz nothing I can do in the past but I don't want deaf children to grow up with all these issues as I did.

So many of my deaf friends, especially my best friend, grew up orally and they all have some resentment of being raised oral-only. All of them are now involved in both worlds and they r happier or that's what they told me. None of them have shunned the hearing world completely though. They feel the same as I did..they wished they had a good balance of both instead of just one. All of them were oral success as far as academics goes.

As for deaf people growing up never being exposed to the hearing world, I haven't met one yet cuz the hearing world is everywhere.

It is a possibility that my 18 month old son may have hearing loss and sure I will put him in a program that offers both ASL and speech therapy. I don't believe in oral only programs cuz of the attitudes the specialists usually have about sign language. If he enjoys speech therapy and does well with it, great. If not, we won't force him to keep going. That's what my parents did to my brother until he was 5 years old. He threw horrible tantrums during speech therapy but the specialists told my parents that he must learn how to accept it so they made him go for 5 years. Finally they realized it was doing more harm than good. I guess I enjoyed them at first but by the time I was in middle school, I hated them. So boring...looking back, they shud have stopped when I turned 13 years old cuz my speech skills were already developed so it was a waste of my time.

I hope that answers your question?

I am considered by many hearing people as an oral success but I felt I paid a heavy but uneccessary price for that success.

Pls parents, don't use this post to defend yourself. I am just simply responding to Tousi. Thanks

 

[rick48]

He's never going to understand it, shel, because he has no desire to understand it. He has no desire to learn anything about what so many deaf children go nor does he have any empathy for these kids. His only cocncern is pushing his limited narrow minded viewpoint off on others. He is disrtespectful to the deaf posters on this board, and treats them as if their life experience doesn't count for shyte. It is useless to respond to his posts, because when you bring up a valid point, he twists your words to make them say whatever he wants them to. People like him are a complete waste of time.

Yet you feel compelled to respond to virtually everyone of my posts. Until the very end I thought you were engaging in self-analysis! As usual, you cannot complete a post without resorting to personal insults. But then again I do not resort to posting misinformation about someone's child in order to bolster my opinions.

 

[rick48]

On a more constructive note, I've posted this a long time ago here but I thought that some people would be interested to read some research out of Gallaudet again about parents, ethics and Cochlear implants. It's a bit old now but still an interesting read -:

http://clerccenter.gallaudet.edu/CIEC/conf-presentationsA.pdf

That is really interesting and very helpful to anyone considering a ci, especially parents. As it seems to have gotten lost in the cross-fire do you think you could re-post it as a separate thread? It really is very good.
Rick

 

[Hwy99]

First of all you were implanted older and thats why you did'nt learn to speak. Second of all i really don't care that sending my child to a deaf school would be cheaper. That has to be one of the most ridiculous excuses i've heard. My daughters implant was worth every cent that was spent on it, so please don't put a price on my daughters communication skills. Why in the world would i want to communicate with my own daughter with a paper and pencil?? Of course i would've make every effort to learn sign a lot sooner if i had noticed her oral language failing her. She will get a better education being mainstreamed especially after finding out that most kids in deaf schools graduate 8th grade with a 4th grade reading level.

If you don't want to communicate with your daughter wtih paper and pencil, then LEARN sign! It's better than giving you daughter suffering with the surgery things. I don't care if you don't give any damn about how cheaper, I am just stating my opinion.

And what's more, you should ask me which I go Deaf School or Mainstream. I was used to be at the deaf school till my 3 grade, and transferred to the hearing school, and I have interpreter, I never use my speaking skill, only signs, at hearing school, and I am VERY PROUD OF BEING DEAF AND SIGN IN PUBLIC SCHOOL! Even my Senior Project was about Discrimination and Rights of Deafness. CI is considered as discrimination of Deaf's Culture. This is the final.

Also are ALL of deaf schools that have students graduated with 4 grade level reading? No. California Deaf Scools and New York Deaf schools are very good education for the kind of deaf school.

No offense to your decision for your daughter, I just want to let you know to not forget to respect your daughter's deafness, as my post at other thread.

And thank to everyone for telling me that I have a good posting.

Also I don't want to be around in this CI threads anymore. It just giving me the hurt feelings.

 

[deafdyke]

She will get a better education being mainstreamed especially after finding out that most kids in deaf schools graduate 8th grade with a 4th grade reading level.

Maybe maybe not. Not ALL Deaf schools are that bad. They are like inner city schools. Some of them are horrible, but there are some that actually send some of their students to Harvard, and other Ivy League Schools, or even to just regular college! (and no, not just Inner City Ghetto Retard Community College) It's not that Deaf schools in general are horrible..........its just that a) there are a lot of kids there who didn't get the proper Early intervention, so they have to spend a lot of time catching up. b) Deaf kids approach English as a SECOND language. Some of them are pretty good at English........but they'll never be as good at English as a hearing person. Hey, even many hearing people who do ESL (English as a Second Language) have HUGE problems with expressing themselves in English. It's exactly the way that I can read and write third or fourth grade French, (due to taking French since jr high) but, I can't express or comprehend more complicated French.
And actually..........believe it or not, there's government stats that indicate that kids who attend speicalized schools, do BETTER then mainstreamed kids. I'm still thick in the middle of end of semester shit, so I don't have a cite off hand.......but I do remember seeing a poster made by an ed major with a quote from a government publication, that kids who attend specialized schools do better then mainstreamed kids.
Besides, haven't you ever heard of Western Pennsylvania School for the Deaf, Austine School for the Deaf, The Learning Center, the California Schools, Model Secondary School for the Deaf, Maryland School for the Deaf, Florida School for the Deaf and Blind and probaly some others? Those are actually pretty damn good programs!

 

[Tousi]

Why, thank you, Shel. All I can say now to whomever it was here.....Rick, I think....here you have it; Shel has given her all on the subject!

 

[Cloggy]

If you don't want to communicate with your daughter wtih paper and pencil, then LEARN sign! It's better than giving you daughter suffering with the surgery things. I don't care if you don't give any damn about how cheaper, I am just stating my opinion.

How about the daughter with other people, that do not know sign. Relatives, family friends, neighbours etc.....????

And what's more, you should ask me which I go Deaf School or Mainstream. I was used to be at the deaf school till my 3 grade, and transferred to the hearing school, and I have interpreter, I never use my speaking skill, only signs, at hearing school, and I am VERY PROUD OF BEING DEAF AND SIGN IN PUBLIC SCHOOL! Even my Senior Project was about Discrimination and Rights of Deafness. CI is considered as discrimination of Deaf's Culture. This is the final.

"CI is considered as discrimination of Deaf's Culture.".. but then, why is Deaf Culture trying to impose their opinion upon other deaf people and parents of deaf children.
Especially hearing parents do not have contacts in the Deaf world, and for them CI is a perfect way to have their child grow up in the Hearing world. Their child is NOT part of Deaf culture.
Getting back to "CI is considered as discrimination of Deaf's Culture."... how is it discrimunation? I have found out that people from Deaf culture that choose CI are discriminated....by Deaf culture... but how can it be the other way??

Also are ALL of deaf schools that have students graduated with 4 grade level reading? No. California Deaf Scools and New York Deaf schools are very good education for the kind of deaf school.

Not really a good help unless you're living next door.... or should all the family, friends of the family move over there....
You mention 2 good schools... I'll take your word for it that they are good.... but what about the other 598 schools??

No offense to your decision for your daughter, I just want to let you know to not forget to respect your daughter's deafness, as my post at other thread..

And thank to everyone for telling me that I have a good posting.

Also I don't want to be around in this CI threads anymore. It just giving me the hurt feelings.

It's a pitty you cannot feel happy for the deaf children that are growing up, able to hear.
As with all choices, some will thrive, some will not.
But success is based on the environment. If there is no Deaf society around, making the choice to let the child grow up deaf, using sign can be a terrible choice. Letting the deaf child grow up hearing in a Deaf society can be just as harmful..

 

[shel90]

Maybe maybe not. Not ALL Deaf schools are that bad. They are like inner city schools. Some of them are horrible, but there are some that actually send some of their students to Harvard, and other Ivy League Schools, or even to just regular college! (and no, not just Inner City Ghetto Retard Community College) It's not that Deaf schools in general are horrible..........its just that a) there are a lot of kids there who didn't get the proper Early intervention, so they have to spend a lot of time catching up. b) Deaf kids approach English as a SECOND language. Some of them are pretty good at English........but they'll never be as good at English as a hearing person. Hey, even many hearing people who do ESL (English as a Second Language) have HUGE problems with expressing themselves in English. It's exactly the way that I can read and write third or fourth grade French, (due to taking French since jr high) but, I can't express or comprehend more complicated French.
And actually..........believe it or not, there's government stats that indicate that kids who attend speicalized schools, do BETTER then mainstreamed kids. I'm still thick in the middle of end of semester shit, so I don't have a cite off hand.......but I do remember seeing a poster made by an ed major with a quote from a government publication, that kids who attend specialized schools do better then mainstreamed kids.
Besides, haven't you ever heard of Western Pennsylvania School for the Deaf, Austine School for the Deaf, The Learning Center, the California Schools, Model Secondary School for the Deaf, Maryland School for the Deaf, Florida School for the Deaf and Blind and probaly some others? Those are actually pretty damn good programs!

Yea...I did my student teaching at The Learning Center...wow!! That has to be the best deaf school I have ever seen. I wish I could work there but Boston is too cold! Lol!

As for deaf children graduating with a 4th grade reading level..BLAME it on the mainsteramed programs that failed them not on the deaf schools. Geez! Deaf kids from signing families who have attended deaf schools from the start do a lot better than deaf kids from hearing families who do not sign or deaf kids referred from the mainstreamed programs. How do I know that? I see it!

U r so right Deafdyke about what u just stated but of course some people won't see it that way so let them see the world in rose colored eyes.

Again..Cloggy u just implied that being hearing is better than being deaf so now I can understand why u get attacked. It makes us feel that u look down on us deaf people and u expect respect? That's a lot to ask from people who don't feel respected by u. Oh well...life is a bitch sometimes, heh?

 

[jillio]

I'm confused. An arguement is going here that parents who implant their children with CI's are ignoring their "deaf cultural" rights, and trying to fix them, and yet if a child with a CI goes to a deaf school they are "ending up" there as if its an afterthought? Is the concept of parents WANTING children to attend a deaf school so they can experience both hearing and deaf worlds such an alien thing?

One thing I would like to bring up, though - in defense of parents who go the mainstreamed/oral route in schools - deaf schools have such a poor performance rating that even *I* would be scared to send a child to one. When I attended RIT/NTID, my two roommates, *deaf-highschool graduates* could not read & understand a book they had to take for their NTID english class that I had read in 7th grade. I found that shocking! They both were constantly coming to me for tutoring in their math/english homework because they couldn't understand it. What *I* couldn't understand is how they could graduate a child who didn't even have a 7th grade level of English comprehension.

It's because these kids usually do not arrive at a deaf school until their high school or jr. high years because they have been mainstreamed and have fallen so far behind that they are sent to the deaf school as a last resort. I was refering towhat the professionals and educators call "oral failures".

On the other hand, there are those students whose parents choose to have them educated in the culturally supportive environment of the deaf school, even though they have already made the decision to implant. But these parents are all too rare in my experience.

 

[jillio]

First of all you were implanted older and thats why you did'nt learn to speak. Second of all i really don't care that sending my child to a deaf school would be cheaper. That has to be one of the most ridiculous excuses i've heard. My daughters implant was worth every cent that was spent on it, so please don't put a price on my daughters communication skills. Why in the world would i want to communicate with my own daughter with a paper and pencil?? Of course i would've make every effort to learn sign a lot sooner if i had noticed her oral language failing her. She will get a better education being mainstreamed especially after finding out that most kids in deaf schools graduate 8th grade with a 4th grade reading level.

You stats on kids graduating are either made up or outdated. And here's the problem that the deaf posters see in your attitude "I would have made every effort to learn sign alot sooner if I had noticed her oral language failing her." That's one big "if." Sign is not an option simply because oral language has failed. That attitude is the very reasont hat deaf children all over the US that have hearing parents are language deprived. And a language deprived child in the mainstream WILL NOT receive a better education. She will get ignored and fall further and further behind. Then they end up at the deaf school in need of so much remedial work that is is virtually impossible to catch them up. When they don't test out at the proper levels, all of a sudden its the deaf school's fault for not having educated them properly.

All I can to a parent who persists in that attitude is "Good luck, because you are sure as hell gonna need it."

 

[jillio]

How about the daughter with other people, that do not know sign. Relatives, family friends, neighbours etc.....????

"CI is considered as discrimination of Deaf's Culture.".. but then, why is Deaf Culture trying to impose their opinion upon other deaf people and parents of deaf children.

Why is it that the hearing community feels so compelled to push their views on the deaf community? Ehtnocentrism.


Especially hearing parents do not have contacts in the Deaf world, and for them CI is a perfect way to have their child grow up in the Hearing world. Their child is NOT part of Deaf culture.


When a prent is given a deaf child to raise , it is their responsibility to seek out contacts in the Deaf culture. That child is not a part of Deaf culture because that parent has made a conscious choice not to seek out those contact. That is negligent on behalf of the parents, as they are completing ignoring a developmental need of their child. And as you stated, the CI is the perfect way to have them grow up in a hearing world. Once again, you have validated the point that parents choose CI as much for their own needs as for their children.
Getting back to "CI is considered as discrimination of Deaf's Culture."... how is it discrimunation? I have found out that people from Deaf culture that choose CI are discriminated....by Deaf culture... but how can it be the other way??


Not really a good help unless you're living next door.... or should all the family, friends of the family move over there....
You mention 2 good schools... I'll take your word for it that they are good.... but what about the other 598 schools??


It's a pitty you cannot feel happy for the deaf children that are growing up, able to hear.
As with all choices, some will thrive, some will not.
But success is based on the environment. If there is no Deaf society around, making the choice to let the child grow up deaf, using sign can be a terrible choice. Letting the deaf child grow up hearing in a Deaf society can be just as harmful..

\

 

[jillio]

Yet you feel compelled to respond to virtually everyone of my posts. Until the very end I thought you were engaging in self-analysis! As usual, you cannot complete a post without resorting to personal insults. But then again I do not resort to posting misinformation about someone's child in order to bolster my opinions.

Yeah, for some strange reason, I thought perhaps you have the capacity to learn. OOps, I was wrong! I can stop wasting my time now.

 

[Hwy99]

How about the daughter with other people, that do not know sign. Relatives, family friends, neighbours etc.....????

Who care about other people who don't know sign language? It's about the child, not other people around her.

"CI is considered as discrimination of Deaf's Culture.".. but then, why is Deaf Culture trying to impose their opinion upon other deaf people and parents of deaf children.
Especially hearing parents do not have contacts in the Deaf world, and for them CI is a perfect way to have their child grow up in the Hearing world. Their child is NOT part of Deaf culture.
Getting back to "CI is considered as discrimination of Deaf's Culture."... how is it discrimunation? I have found out that people from Deaf culture that choose CI are discriminated....by Deaf culture... but how can it be the other way??

I am surprised that you don't think CI was a discrimination against Deaf Culture. I have been research and studying during my Senior Project, and the CI is making the Deaf Culture dying. That is why CI is more likely "Anti-Deafness". Sorry I am just saying the true fact.

Not really a good help unless you're living next door.... or should all the family, friends of the family move over there....
You mention 2 good schools... I'll take your word for it that they are good.... but what about the other 598 schools??

598 schools? Where did you find that number of deaf schools? There is only 50 states in America and there's one each. Only 3 states that don't have deaf school. If you don't want your children to go to deaf school, then send them to the public school with a interpreter, I have been raising that way and are very happy with that way.

It's a pitty you cannot feel happy for the deaf children that are growing up, able to hear.
As with all choices, some will thrive, some will not.
But success is based on the environment. If there is no Deaf society around, making the choice to let the child grow up deaf, using sign can be a terrible choice. Letting the deaf child grow up hearing in a Deaf society can be just as harmful..

I love my children more than the CI, and would let my child to decide when he/she get older. I respect my child's body much much much more than the CI. If I give my child the CI, that mean I don't care about that child, but only the best for myself.

Please stop trying to argue with me here, I want to leave here period.

 

[Cheri]

Who care about other people who don't know sign language? It's about the child, not other people around her.

Parents tend to keep forgetting that.

I can't image a parent would think of themselves before their own child.

 

[Hwy99]

Parents tend to keep forgetting that.

I can't image a parent would think of themselves before their own child.

Yeah, a greedy choice.

 

[Cloggy]

Who care about other people who don't know sign language? It's about the child, not other people around her.

VERY wrong... children learn from the people around them.

I am surprised that you don't think CI was a discrimination against Deaf Culture. I have been research and studying during my Senior Project, and the CI is making the Deaf Culture dying. That is why CI is more likely "Anti-Deafness". Sorry I am just saying the true fact.

I know that argument.... and it is NOT discrimination. Call it something else.... (Jillio has it...)[/quote]

598 schools? Where did you find that number of deaf schools? There is only 50 states in America and there's one each. Only 3 states that don't have deaf school. If you don't want your children to go to deaf school, then send them to the public school with a interpreter, I have been raising that way and are very happy with that way.

it's 600-2... so, 2 out of 50... the other 48 schools suck!?

I love my children more than the CI, and would let my child to decide when he/she get older. I respect my child's body much much much more than the CI. If I give my child the CI, that mean I don't care about that child, but only the best for myself.

Please stop trying to argue with me here, I want to leave here period.[/QUOTE]

"If I give my child the CI, that mean I don't care about that child, but only the best for myself."

Glad you're not judging people !!

 

[Hwy99]

VERY wrong... children learn from the people around them.

So a deaf child can't learn other people? Wrong. Look at those deaf people raise with no CI around this Deaf forum.

I know that argument.... and it is NOT discrimination. Call it something else.... (Jillio has it...)

Ur just twisting the English word.

it's 600-2... so, 2 out of 50... the other 48 schools suck!?

You can't expect me to know ALLLL of the schools in the world. New York, Riversdale, Fremont, Washington, Oregon is all I know the most about, but I do know there is more schools than that, but I don't know about them much.

"If I give my child the CI, that mean I don't care about that child, but only the best for myself."

Glad you're not judging people !!

That's right. I am a anti-judgement, and anti-discrimination, so there you meet me

 

[deafdyke]

for them CI is a perfect way to have their child grow up in the Hearing world. Their child is NOT part of Deaf culture.

Cloggy that is WRONG. That's based on the assumption that hoh kids are somewhat more hearing then deaf. A LOT of us grew up that way, and we're simply trying to tell hearing parents that that's not the case! Yes, the CI is new.....but functionally hoh kids are NOT new. Most hoh kids have been historcially pushed towards the hearing world. Our acheivement levels aren't better then deaf kids. That really is taking a VERY ethnocentric view of the world. You are very audist. (ie in the "hearing and talking is the best sort of way) I love being able to hear........but at the same time I love love being hoh!
jillo.....I think you were a bit too harsh on Kayla123.........although you're 100% right about mainstreaming. Kayla123....we've been having mainstreaming be the "norm" for over thirty years. If your hypotheisis was correct, then acheivement levels would have RISEN. But, they've basicly stayed the same b/c most public schools are targeted towards educating the mythical Average Learner. Hey..........even GIFTED kids aren't always " high honor role, going off to Harvard." There have been SOME kids who do well mainstreamed, but over all most mainstreamed kids haven't done well.

 

[neecy]

The problem is, though - even though this topic has been beaten to death, time and time again, years and years over, the fact remains that so many people are willing to JUDGE parents by what they do and how they parent, when in reality its not their choice. Nobody should tell a parent how to raise their child, so long as they are not doing anything that will endanger their health. The kind of reactions seen here, just as already stated, are the reason so many parents are terrified of getting involved in the Deaf world. Can you imagine, just IMAGINE, trying to do what you deem best for your child, working together with your child, trying to ensure they are healthy, happy, and well rounded, only to meet members of the Deaf world and be attacked for doing what they believed with all their heart was beneficial for their child/ren?
And quite often the reason the parents are attacked can be something as simple as "I don't like CI's and therefore nobody should ever use them." (just one example of MANY that have been given on this forum.)

Why can't people say "Its not MY child, and therefore I will support a parent's right to do what they believe to be in his/her best interest instead of trying to nose my way into their lives and dictate the way they should live." ? Is that such a hard thing to do? You don't see the parents of the deaf children going out into the Deaf world and telling THEM how to live. Why can't it be the same both ways?