i asked this elsewhere..

Beach girl said:
I've been wearing HAs for longer than you've been alive. I do have a wee bit of experience there knowing what hearing loss is like.
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Oh no ... Please don't do that.
 
Beach girl said:
I can sympathize.

I put off having a hysterectomy for probably 3 years beyond when it was first recommended to me, because of potential complications and not wanting to say bye-bye to all my internal girl bits. I am a very slow decider myself when it comes to major surgery where it's not absolutely essential right that minute.

After I did though, I thought "sheesh, this is great, no more pain and aggravation. What in the world was I waiting for!!!"

So - just saying - it's important to take everything into consideration, but everyone will still have their own point of saying "OK, benefits are greater than the risks here," or vice versa. Facts and emotions both have to be taken into account.

For me personally, I start with the facts and work through to emotions. Others might make decisions the other way around, emotions first and then facts.
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But the thing is.....I think the reason why infant implantation is so controversial is b/c a lot of times hearing parents make choices based on their emotions....b/c of grieving the loss of a "healthy normal" kid. So they opt for implantation or intense speech therapy and mainstreaming and things like that. Anything so they don't have to admit that their kid is *OH NO.....DIFFERENT!* That's not always the case no. But, it does seem to be a huge factor in a lot of parental decisions.
 
shel90 said:
I never really was strongly against implantation in little children. I am more of "I prefer that they dont get implanted at such a young age, but not my business as these are not my children." The reason for this is because it is a battle I chose not to fight since it is already being done. So, no..it wouldnt make a difference for me. I am just uncomfortable with the idea of needing sugery for something that is not life-threatening and the CI surgery is that.

However, it is the view that comes with the CI that I am against...like you mentioned before about how people see the CI as a way to make deaf children more like hearing kids who dont need ASL, Deaf culture, or the Deaf community.
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*nods* Exactly. There is NOTHING wrong with opting for implantation if the kid is deep profound. But it's very difficult to tell how well a kid can hear with a HA. There are still many kids with "deaf" losses who are functionally hoh with HAs. And I agree with you 100%. I think that the assumption that hoh kids (including CI and HA kids) don't need ASL, Deaf culture or Deaf community is SO fucking dumbassed. Those of us who are hoh should be able to take advantage of both the hearing and deaf worlds.....and you know...to those lurkers......a lot of the oral/.mainstream sucesses although they have achieved well and can hear and talk, STILL say they don't feel like they fit in to the hearing world. That says something. The goal of auditory verbal is for kids to grow up in typical listening and learning situtions ....but yet they don't feel like they fit in with the hearing world.....that really says something!
 
Beach girl said:
Age 31 when diagnosed, might have had some mild loss before that. Started wearing hearing aids at age 31.

Current loss is down around the 90 decibel range for most frequencies, around 50-ish for low frequency sounds.
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so.... you've been wearing HA since 31 years old and I've been wearing HA since 3 years old... the big box thing on my chest that I had to carry with suspenders.

1. I've never heard any natural sound like you did for 31 years.
2. You've never had to do speech therapy or any of those kind of auditory/oral intensive therapy classes for decades in school
3. You've never had to deal with what many deaf students deal with in schools
4. You've never had to deal with difficulty in communication especially with your parents and families during your childhood life
5. You don't see any needs to learn sign language nor interact with deaf community

so.... I don't know what do you know about deaf culture or deaf issue. The only thing you relate with us is that you wear HA and that's it. Perhaps you should stop fooling yourself that you "feel our pain". You should try to open your mind to learn and understand our deaf perspective in hearing world... not medical perspective by equating HA/CI with pacemaker or prosthetic leg. There's no cultural groups, no schools, no language system, or whatsoever for pacemaker or prosthetic leg...

In case you didn't know - we find it extremely insulting and demeaning when you keep comparing it that way. We're not holding it against you but you're making it very difficult for us to carry on without feeling disdain toward you.
 
GrendelQ said:
We already have that costly "ASL chip":
full immersion ASL classroom environment = $75K a year
transportation to school for the deaf =$25K a year
bilingual communication for life = priceless.
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What was she banned for? Bring her back!
 
Jiro said:
so.... you've been wearing HA since 31 years old and I've worn HA since 3 years old...

1. I've never heard any natural sound like you did for 31 years.

This is true. However, since I'm now 61 - that is a good long time to have had hearing loss, wouldn't you agree?

2. You've never had to do speech therapy or any of those kind of auditory/oral intensive therapy classes for decades in school

Hmm - semi-true, not completely. See more to follow....
3. You've never had to deal with what many deaf students deal with in schools.

Totally wrong. Due to my career, I was enrolled in language classes 4 times (4 different languages) for six months to a year of intensive language training. By the time I was taking the last two languages, I had to ask for accommodation (private classes and emphasis from the instructor on how to physically produce certain sounds). I had the same frustrations any HoH person faces when learning a language.

4. You've never had to deal with difficulty in communication especially with your parents and families.

Again, wrong re "never had to deal with difficulty in communication." Thankfully my mother (while she was alive) and currently my family and friends are patient with me, but that is not the same as "not dealing with any difficulty." Plus, professionally, I had to communicate at a professional level in languages that were learned after I had a hearing loss. Believe me, there were times when that was very challenging and stressful.
5. You don't see any needs to learn sign language nor interact with deaf community.

Hmmm.... re: sign language, maybe it might be interesting, and could be useful if my husband goes to class with me.

Re: interacting with the deaf community - I'm here, aren't I? Plus have attended a few professional events sponsored by SHHH/HLAA.

Actually I found this forum looking for more technical information (what hearing aids people liked, what TVs and telephones and such were deaf-friendly), and then thought it might be interesting to learn more about deaf culture. So I'm learning.

so.... I don't know what do you know about deaf culture or deaf issue. The only thing you relate with us is that you wear HA and that's it. Perhaps you should stop fooling yourself that you "feel our pain".

I'm not Bill Clinton. I've never said "I feel your pain." That said, there are many people here that I empathize with. Many face much tougher situations in life than I ever had, for reasons having little or nothing to do with hearing, and obviously many face tougher situations with hearing than I have had to. So? We're all different and I'd hope that participants don't have to pass a "misery index" (to quote another former President) in order to post.


You should try to open your mind to learn and understand our deaf perspective in hearing world... not medical perspective by equating HA/CI with pacemaker or prosthetic leg. There's no cultural groups, no schools, no language system, or whatsoever for pacemaker or prosthetic leg...

I'm not *equating* the two. Someone (Frisky Feline? I don't even remember.) said something about "foreign items in the body are not a good thing." I was just responding to that blanket statement about foreign items.

In case you didn't know - we find it extremely insulting and demeaning when you keep comparing it that way. We're not holding it against you but you're making it very difficult for us to carry on without feeling disdain toward you.
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Who is this "we" that you speak for? Some here don't care for me, some do. I'm sorry you feel insulted and I'm sorry you feel disdain toward me just because I have a different perspective than you do. I've been on the receiving end of plenty of insults and snarky remarks, though. Mostly I've refrained from replying in kind.

Re the particular issue under discussion, about CIs, I actually don't hold a position about whether infant/early childhood implantation is good or bad. WAAAYYYY back earlier in this thread, I just asked the question about number of deaths, number of complications, and such. ONE person posted a specific study about it.

My main point is just that every person is going to make a decision about such things in line with their own beliefs, attitudes, and expectations, and will consider the risks and benefits *as they see it,* and decide accordingly. That is hardly a stunningly original observation, and certainly isn't meant to insult anyone.
 
Beach girl said:
This is true. However, since I'm now 61 - that is a good long time to have had hearing loss, wouldn't you agree?
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not quite the same. You were never born with it. Your hearing loss experience is equivalent to your legs getting bad and having to use wheelchair and take physical therapy for it.

For majority of us - our deafness makes a huge impact on us at all four corners.

Beach girl said:
Totally wrong. Due to my career, I was enrolled in language classes 4 times (4 different languages) for six months to a year of intensive language training. By the time I was taking the last two languages, I had to ask for accommodation (private classes and emphasis from the instructor on how to physically produce certain sounds). I had the same frustrations any HoH person faces when learning a language.
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6 months to a year... and you had to do it for your career. Sorry but speaking foreign language is just not the same. See? you are trying to equate it with something else.

Many of us have to take intensive speech therapy for decades because our parents and schools believe it's in our best interest to learn how to communicate orally in order to succeed. It's a pure utter hell. It takes away our time to socialize with other students which is why handful of deaf kids are socially awkward or misfits.

Did you have to deal with that? Did you have to learn how to pronounce a word without knowing what it should sound like? Remember - you were born hearing... thus you already knew how to speak and what the sounds should sound like. We don't.

Beach girl said:
Who is this "we" that you speak for? Some here don't care for me, some do. I'm sorry you feel insulted and I'm sorry you feel disdain toward me just because I have a different perspective than you do. I've been on the receiving end of plenty of insults and snarky remarks, though. Mostly I've refrained from replying in kind.
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I have a very thick skin and I deal with difficult people on nearly daily basis. I don't feel insulted or disdain toward you. What I'm trying to tell you is that yes I know you have a different perspective but you're still not getting it and you just leap to defense of any hearing parents. You don't even consider our perspectives at all.

Beach girl said:
Re the particular issue under discussion, about CIs, I actually don't hold a position about whether infant/early childhood implantation is good or bad. WAAAYYYY back earlier in this thread, I just asked the question about number of deaths, number of complications, and such. ONE person posted a specific study about it.

My main point is just that every person is going to make a decision about such things in line with their own beliefs, attitudes, and expectations, and will consider the risks and benefits *as they see it,* and decide accordingly. That is hardly a stunningly original observation, and certainly isn't meant to insult anyone.
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it's your attitude and inability to try to understand our deaf perspective because you kept equating it with something else. It is considered demeaning and insulting for many deafies.
 
Jiro said:
Did you have to deal with that? Did you have to learn how to pronounce a word without knowing what it should sound like? Remember - you were born hearing... thus you already knew how to speak and what the sounds should sound like. We don't.
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I agree with this. I am not talking about just Beach girl but all hearing parents who don't just get it. I have been telling the hearing people not to lump those who are born deaf along with those who became deaf later on. Those two groups are not even the same and both have very different view on deafness with rare exceptions. The exceptions are those I have come across in AD like some who were born deaf, want to be hearing at all costs and others who became deaf at late age, want to stay deaf. Those are very rare.

The hearing people need to see those two groups as two separate groups. They haven't validate the deaf borns often so they need to pay attention to us on how we feel about the Deaf Education and how we should be taught.
 
Buffalo said:
I agree with this. I am not talking about just Beach girl but all hearing parents who don't just get it. I have been telling the hearing people not to lump those who are born deaf along with those who became deaf later on. Those two groups are not even the same and both have very different view on deafness with rare exceptions. The exceptions are those I have come across in AD like some who were born deaf, want to be hearing at all costs and others who became deaf at late age, want to stay deaf. Those are very rare.

The hearing people need to see those two groups as two separate groups. They haven't validate the deaf borns often so they need to pay attention to us on how we feel about the Deaf Education and how we should be taught.
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Totally agree with you and Jiro.

Beachgirl, it is not a personal vendetta towards you but it is the same old same old with hearing people not really understanding our experiences of growing up deaf. Risk of driving and risk of surgery for CIs are just not the same.
 
Jiro said:
not quite the same. You were never born with it. Your hearing loss experience is equivalent to your legs getting bad and having to use wheelchair and take physical therapy for it.

For majority of us - our deafness makes a huge impact on us at all four corners.


6 months to a year... and you had to do it for your career. Sorry but speaking foreign language is just not the same. See? you are trying to equate it with something else.

Many of us have to take intensive speech therapy for decades because our parents and schools believe it's in our best interest to learn how to communicate orally in order to succeed. It's a pure utter hell. It takes away our time to socialize with other students which is why handful of deaf kids are socially awkward or misfits.

Did you have to deal with that? Did you have to learn how to pronounce a word without knowing what it should sound like? Remember - you were born hearing... thus you already knew how to speak and what the sounds should sound like. We don't.


I have a very thick skin and I deal with difficult people on nearly daily basis. I don't feel insulted or disdain toward you. What I'm trying to tell you is that yes I know you have a different perspective but you're still not getting it and you just leap to defense of any hearing parents. You don't even consider our perspectives at all.


it's your attitude and inability to try to understand our deaf perspective because you kept equating it with something else. It is considered demeaning and insulting for many deafies.
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Yes. Sorry to join in the pig pile. BUT jiro is right. Your experiance is of a hearing impaired person. You were born and functioned as basicly hearing for DECADES. It's like the diffy between a kid born/early blinded and someone who lost their sight as an adult. Or even the diffy between a kid with CP and a person who became paralegic as a teen or an adult.
Even many if not most hoh as kids didn't have your experiance living life as a hearing person. Heck i remmy sitting in speech therapy as a third or fourth grader learning to say the "th" blend (which is a sound that most 4 year olds master) and learning to modulate my pitch and voice. I still get yelled at sometimes for talking too loud or screeching... :(
 
deafdyke said:
Yes. Sorry to join in the pig pile. BUT jiro is right. Your experiance is of a hearing impaired person. You were born and functioned as basicly hearing for DECADES. It's like the diffy between a kid born/early blinded and someone who lost their sight as an adult. Or even the diffy between a kid with CP and a person who became paralegic as a teen or an adult.
Even many if not most hoh as kids didn't have your experiance living life as a hearing person. Heck i remmy sitting in speech therapy as a third or fourth grader learning to say the "th" blend (which is a sound that most 4 year olds master) and learning to modulate my pitch and voice. I still get yelled at sometimes for talking too loud or screeching... :(
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I got constantly criticized for not using my voice correctly but then when I do, I got "Oh, you must be so smart because you speak so well!"

WTF?!
 
deafdyke said:
Yes. Sorry to join in the pig pile. BUT jiro is right. Your experiance is of a hearing impaired person. You were born and functioned as basicly hearing for DECADES. It's like the diffy between a kid born/early blinded and someone who lost their sight as an adult. Or even the diffy between a kid with CP and a person who became paralegic as a teen or an adult.
Even many if not most hoh as kids didn't have your experiance living life as a hearing person. Heck i remmy sitting in speech therapy as a third or fourth grader learning to say the "th" blend (which is a sound that most 4 year olds master) and learning to modulate my pitch and voice. I still get yelled at sometimes for talking too loud or screeching... :(
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I don't think late-deafened people were ever punished for not being able to say the word right. I was punished in the preschool for not able to say 'k' in 'cow'. I was made to sit on the floor behind the teacher while she had another kid to speech-trained. Well, the teacher ended up making the next few kids sit on the floor with me. She probably had a bad day but still that doesn't excuse her from that.
 
No, it doesn't. I feel for everyone who had terrible childhood experiences like that.

Still, can't we keep the "all" in "AllDeaf?" There are a lot of late-deafened people who post in the "adjusting to late deafness" thread, and never post elsewhere, in part because of so much hostility toward those who are late-deafened.

Jiro asked this:

Did you have to deal with that? Did you have to learn how to pronounce a word without knowing what it should sound like? Remember - you were born hearing... thus you already knew how to speak and what the sounds should sound like. We don't.
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Well, yes, I did, have to learn how to pronounce words - and entire languages - without knowing clearly what they should sound like. I knew what *English* sounded like, but the other four languages I had to learn without being able to hear all the sounds clearly. Spanish I knew to some degree because I had studied it in high school, but learning to speak it at the professional level was a whole 'nother ball-game. The other three languages (French, Portuguese, Serbo-Croatian) were all completely new to me.

And BECAUSE I had to learn those languages for my career, that was fairly stressful. My livelihood and my income depended on doing it sucessfully.

And I did it, despite having a hearing loss (moderate at first, more severe later on). So here I am, more than 30 years later, and if there is some late-deafened person who comes on the forum thinking "Oh no, my life is over now!", I'm one who can say "No it isn't, you can still do what you planned and dreamed of, you have options, I've been through it."
 
Beach girl said:
No, it doesn't. I feel for everyone who had terrible childhood experiences like that.

Still, can't we keep the "all" in "AllDeaf?" There are a lot of late-deafened people who post in the "adjusting to late deafness" thread, and never post elsewhere, in part because of so much hostility toward those who are late-deafened.

Jiro asked this:



Well, yes, I did, have to learn how to pronounce words - and entire languages - without knowing clearly what they should sound like. I knew what *English* sounded like, but the other four languages I had to learn without being able to hear all the sounds clearly. Spanish I knew to some degree because I had studied it in high school, but learning to speak it at the professional level was a whole 'nother ball-game. The other three languages (French, Portuguese, Serbo-Croatian) were all completely new to me.

And BECAUSE I had to learn those languages for my career, that was fairly stressful. My livelihood and my income depended on doing it sucessfully.

And I did it, despite having a hearing loss (moderate at first, more severe later on). So here I am, more than 30 years later, and if there is some late-deafened person who comes on the forum thinking "Oh no, my life is over now!", I'm one who can say "No it isn't, you can still do what you planned and dreamed of, you have options, I've been through it."
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And that is where you can be extremely valuable, but when you weigh in on the threads of CI and education of young deaf children, you are not an expert and you often do seem to side with the hearing just for the sake of taking their side.
 
Beach girl said:
No, it doesn't. I feel for everyone who had terrible childhood experiences like that.

Still, can't we keep the "all" in "AllDeaf?" There are a lot of late-deafened people who post in the "adjusting to late deafness" thread, and never post elsewhere, in part because of so much hostility toward those who are late-deafened.

Jiro asked this:



Well, yes, I did, have to learn how to pronounce words - and entire languages - without knowing clearly what they should sound like. I knew what *English* sounded like, but the other four languages I had to learn without being able to hear all the sounds clearly. Spanish I knew to some degree because I had studied it in high school, but learning to speak it at the professional level was a whole 'nother ball-game. The other three languages (French, Portuguese, Serbo-Croatian) were all completely new to me.

And BECAUSE I had to learn those languages for my career, that was fairly stressful. My livelihood and my income depended on doing it sucessfully.

And I did it, despite having a hearing loss (moderate at first, more severe later on). So here I am, more than 30 years later, and if there is some late-deafened person who comes on the forum thinking "Oh no, my life is over now!", I'm one who can say "No it isn't, you can still do what you planned and dreamed of, you have options, I've been through it."
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In the late-deafened thread that Jillio created, I dont see any prelingual deaf people telling them that it is awful for how they feel about becoming deaf later on. Most of us, if not all, leave it be for people like you to help them since you (general you) know what it is like while we dont.

However, when we share our feelings about childhood implantation and then it gets compared to situations that arent the same, it feels like our experiences are being discounted. Hope you understand.
 
But when I asked specific questions about what is the rate of specific risks, only one person responded to that. I was genuinely curious.

I don't actually have a position pro or con childhood implantation. But I don't think that those parents who have chosen it should be jumped on and insulted and told to shut up and all that because they have gone in that direction.
 
Beach girl said:
But when I asked specific questions about what is the rate of specific risks, only one person responded to that. I was genuinely curious.

I don't actually have a position pro or con childhood implantation. But I don't think that those parents who have chosen it should be jumped on and insulted and told to shut up and all that because they have gone in that direction.
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precisely why you still don't understand.
 
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