FL. Loses Appeal in Terri Schiavo Case

I have to admit that I didn't read these posts in several pages. Last time I read, this topic was about 15 pages and now it is 30 pages. Wow... anyway, yesterday, I researched and read approx 100 differents of articles about Theresa Schiavo (or Terri Schiavo if you like me to call her) to obtain a opinion of this bizarre case. I found several interesting facts about Schiavo cases which I would like to share with you people... Before I can say anything, I have already 'deattached' my emotions from this case so I can think rationally; it is best to cut away these 'veils' and form a opinion about this case.

I want to point out these hypocrites who dare to label Michael Schiavo or 'Liberals' as "murders" (I was not talking about these AD'ers in this topc. I repeat: I was NOT talking about these AD'ers in this topic. I am talking about these politicans and other people who personally or slightly-personally got involved in this Schiavo case). So here's these facts: (remember that I have already deattached my emotions from this case so I may sound like asshole for several minutes which I don't care if anyone will be 'gasp' by my emotionless comments)

1) Robert Schindler (Theresa Schiavo's Father) Removed Life Support from His Mother
But, given the vehemence with which he has been fighting to prolong Terri's life, it is a little surprising to learn that Robert [Teri's father] decided to turn off the life-support system for his mother. She was 79 at the time, and had been ill with pneumonia for a week, when her kidneys gave out. "I can remember like yesterday the doctors said she had a good life. I asked, 'If you put her on a ventilator does she have a chance of surviving, of coming out of this thing?'" Robert says "I was very angry with God because I didn't want to make those decisions."
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Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1077219,00.html

Interesting. No? Where are these so-called "Right-to-Life" Religious zealots screaming for Robert Schindler's blood like they did for Michael? Next!


2) DeLay's Own Tragic Crossroads

CANYON LAKE, Texas -- A family tragedy unfolding in a Texas hospital during the fall of 1988 was a private ordeal -- without judges, emergency sessions of Congress or the raging debate outside Terri Schiavo's Florida hospice. The patient then was a 65-year-old drilling contractor, badly injured in a freak accident at his home. Among the family standing vigil at Brooke Army Medical Center was a grieving junior congressman -- U.S. Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Texas.

More than 16 years ago, far from the political passions that have defined the Schiavo controversy, the DeLay family endured its own wrenching end-of-life crisis. The man in a coma, kept alive by intravenous lines and a ventilator, was DeLay's father, Charles Ray DeLay.

Then, freshly re-elected to a third term in the House, DeLay waited all but helpless for the verdict of doctors.

Today, as House Majority Leader, DeLay has teamed with Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., to champion political intervention the Schaivo case. He pushed emergency legislation through congress to shift the legal case from Florida state courts to the federal judiciary.

And he is among the strongest advocates of keeping the woman, who doctors say has been in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years, connected to her feeding tube. DeLay has denounced Schiavo's husband, as well as judges, for committing what he calls ''an act of barbarism`` in removing the tube.

In 1988, however, there was no such fiery rhetoric as the congressman quietly joined the sad family consensus to let his father die.

When the man's kidneys failed, the DeLay family decided against connecting him to a dialysis machine. "Extraordinary measures to prolong life were not initiated," said his medical report, citing "agreement with the family's wishes." His bedside chart carried the instruction: "Do Not Resuscitate."

On Dec. 14, 1988, the senior DeLay "expired with his family in attendance."
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Source: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...7mar27,0,5710023.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Again, where are these so-called "Right-to-Life" Religious Zealots screamed for DeLay and his family's blood for "murder"? DeLay's dad was in coma and kept alive by oxygen equipment and intravenous lines. DeLay's dad was in same but different situation as Theresa Schiavo is in. Where's the uproar? Next!


3) Baby at center of life support case dies

Source: http://www.alldeaf.com/showthread.php?t=15705

Once again, where are these Religious Zealots screaming for Bush's blood because of his Texas Futile Care Law? it is pure murder! murder! Let me quote DeLay's statement: "an act of barbarism". Oh wait, is it because Bush approved this "Right-to-Die" action which accorded to his law in 1999? It was against mother's wishes. My friends & enemies, that is perfect hypocrisy. Next!


4) Heart surgeon Frist (Bill Frist) has pulled the plug regularly

WASHINGTON - Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who has championed the "rescue" of Terri Schiavo, is a renowned heart surgeon who has pulled the plug on a "regular basis," his office acknowledged yesterday.

But Frist (R-Tenn.) ended life support only when the patient was ruled brain-dead, and he is convinced Schiavo is not brain-dead.

"He certainly has a lot of clinical experience" in the withdrawal of life support, said Frist spokeswoman Amy Call.
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Source: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/story/292714p-250596c.html

Well, Bill Frist did what these courts did with Theresa Schiavo. In other words, if any people want to call Michael as "cold-hearted husband" or "murder", be my guest but be sure to call George W. Bush, Bill Frist, Tom DeLay and Robert Schindler "cold-hearted murders" too. God bless Political Community and DailyKos for these wonderful links. More facts in next post due to limited characters.
 
I want to quote few wonderful statements from this article:

After all, when you spend your waking hours blaming all of society's ills on liberal, liberal, liberal commie pinkos like Jane Fonda, Charles Schumer, Barbara Boxer and that Tokyo Rose of the left, Hillary Clinton, consider how Terri Schiavo has bollixed the rhetorical Abu Ghraib of talk radio.

Imagine the funk Michael Savage, who is to talk radio what Saddam Hussein was to crowd control, must be in.

After it refused to hear appeals by the parents of Terri Schiavo, Bob and Mary Schindler, five - count 'em, five - times, how do you work up enough indignation to accuse the U.S. Supreme Court (that cabal of socialists) of being populated by ``activist'' judges?

William Rehnquist? Antonin Scalia? Clarence Thomas? Sandra Day O'Connor? Anthony Kennedy? David Souter? John Paul Stevens? All Republican appointees.

That would be like trying to smear Barbara Bush as a coat check girl for NOW.

And then there is the attempt to portray Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Court Judge George Greer, who has presided over the Schiavo case for the past seven years, as a graduate of the University of Satan School of Law, Moscow campus.

Sorry, Greer is not only a card- carrying conservative Republican, but he also is a devout Baptist.
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That bolded comment is indeed beautiful statement.

Just fathom the pickle the Yada Yada Yada Blah Blah Blah Viceroys of the Airwaves must feel to have such a juicy topic like Terri Schiavo to chew on only to discover just as many conservative Republicans are in favor of pulling the poor woman's feeding tube as the usual suspects of The New York Times meets the Kennedy compound?

Poor dears. If only it could be revealed that Terri Schiavo once dated John Kerry, maybe the Father Coughlin radio community would have its own reason to live.

Therein can be found the crisis the Axis of Sleazos found themselves in trying to stir up their legions of dittohead lemmings - they were forced to think for a change and run the daunting risk of actually stumbling upon an original concept that didn't have an ideological label attached to it.

The tragedy of Terri Schiavo's life and death isn't Republican or Democratic, liberal or conservative, right or left.

Judges, good, honest, dedicated people like George Greer, James Whittemore and others have ruled on this case based on the law, not the editorial pages, or the partisan think tanks, or the P.T. Barnums of the Bible, or the delusional ramblings of the talk radio Borgias.
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After reading approx 100 articles of Schiavo case alone, for me, it is pretty obvious that these judges just did their jobs based on the laws. Simple. Nothing complicated about their decisions.

These statements are from this: http://www.tampatrib.com/MGBONXF3U6E.html


Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped briefly from a chemical imbalance believed to have been brought on by an eating disorder. She left no living will.
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Source: http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2005/mar/25/032507564.html


Ok, I want to state the facts that I collected from these articles which I regretted that I didn't bookmark these on my computer but you can always google to find to see if I did get the facts right or not. To repeat myself: I collected what these articles offered me. Nothing more or less than that.


1) Pulling life support is bad in Florida when authorized by the legal next-of-kin, but pulling life support is good in Texas when you run out of money and the mother pleads not to pull the plug on her baby. (note: sarcasm)

2) I notice that some people said in PC topic or articles that Michael is after the money... I found it interesting because Michael turned down one million dollars and ten million dollars to sign over guardianship. Source: Businessman Offers $1 Million to Keep Terri Schiavo Alive and Transcript: Michael Schiavo on 'Nightline' (ten million dollars offer). (it is pretty obvious that he isn't after the money. He did what his wife wishes. I believe many guys will grant the guardianship to anyone immediately if offer the bunch of money like they offered to Michael Schiavo. I am sure if Michael accepted, many of people will claim that he is after the money... which he ISN'T. In other words if any people wants to accuse Michael for greed, save it because it is quite baseless accusation. I personally believe that Schiavo parents are the one who after the money, not Michael. I will post the article about it in next post)

3) 22 successive court battles that ended in the same way.

4) To my understanding that these so-called 'renowned neurologists' performed the diagnoses by watching highly editted videotape made by Randall Terry, a lawyer of Schinlder family. If I am a certificated doctor, I wouldn't perform any kind of diagnoses based on the videotapes... yet media bought their 'stories'. Whoever did these should be fired and thier licenses also should be revoked.

5) There is no cerebral cortex. It is just cerebral spinal fluid.

6) Supreme Court Justices were appointed by republican presidents.

7) 15 years in the same persistant state. Same.

8) A feeding tube that infuses nutritional substance is life support.

9) All judges who made decisions about Schiavo case are conservatives. None of these heart-bleeding liberals.

One more post to go in next post.
 
Some of you may remember what I mentioned this ""something is definitely missing" comment in my old posts? I think I found it. It was just stared at my face... it is right there. Here's the statement that I want to quote:

John Pecarek, a court-appointed guardian for Terri, described her husband as "a nursing home administrator's nightmare," adding, "I believe that the ward (Terri) gets care and attention from the staff of Sabal Palms (nursing home) as a result of Mr. Schiavo's advocacy and defending on her behalf."

Mary Schindler testified that, while her daughter was at one nursing home, her relationship with her son-in-law was "very good. We did everything together. Wherever he went, I went."

Schiavo and the Schindlers even sold pretzels and hot dogs on St. Pete Beach to raise money for Terri's care. But everything seemed to change on Valentine's Day 1993 in a nursing home near here.

In 1992, Schiavo had filed a medical malpractice lawsuit against two doctors who had been treating his wife before she was stricken. Late that year came a settlement: Schiavo received $300,000 for loss of consortium — his wife's companionship. Another $700,000 was ordered for Terri's care.

Mary Schindler later testified that Schiavo had promised money to his in-laws. They had helped him and Terri move from New Jersey to Pinellas County, let them live rent-free in their condominium and had given him other financial help.

"We all had financial problems" after Terri's crisis, she testified. "Michael, Bob. We all did. It was a very stressful time. It was a very financially difficult time. He used to say, 'Don't worry, Mom. If I ever get any money from the lawsuit, I'll help you and Dad.' "

By February 1993, Schiavo had the money from the lawsuit.

On Valentine's Day that year, he testified, he was in his wife's nursing home room studying. He wanted to become a nurse so he could care for his wife himself. He had taken Terri to California for experimental treatment. A doctor there had placed a stimulator inside Terri's brain and those of other people in vegetative states to try to stimulate still-living but dormant cells.

According to Schiavo's testimony, the Schindlers came into Terri's room in the nursing home, spoke to their daughter, then turned to him.

"The first words out of my father-in-law's mouth was how much money he was going to get," Schiavo said. "I was, 'What do you mean?' 'Well, you owe me money.' "

Schiavo said he told his in-laws that all the money had gone to his wife — a lie he said he told Bob Schindler "to shut him up because he was screaming."

Schiavo said his father-in-law called him "a few choice words," then stormed out of the room. Schiavo said he started to follow him, but his mother-in-law stepped in front of him, saying, "This is my daughter, our daughter, and we deserve some of this money."
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As I said before. I deattached my emotions from this case... From there, I figured out that parents wants the money while Michael isn't (check my previous post about million dollars offers)

I want to quote another statement that got my full attention:
Once Terri was unable to help herself, Michael became a demanding advocate.

John Pecarek, a court-appointed guardian for Terri, described her husband as "a nursing home administrator's nightmare," adding, "I believe that the ward (Terri) gets care and attention from the staff of Sabal Palms (nursing home) as a result of Mr. Schiavo's advocacy and defending on her behalf."

Mary Schindler testified that, while her daughter was at one nursing home, her relationship with her son-in-law was "very good. We did everything together. Wherever he went, I went."
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Michael Schiavo was very demanding advocate. Cold-hearted husband? To me, unlikely. If we want to talk about cold-hearted people... let's talk about Bill Frist, Tom DeLay, Robert Schinlder and George W. Bush first please before we can discuss how cold-hearted Michael Schiavo can be. Thank you very much.

Once again, next statement that got my full attention:

"There have been similar cases where people have been disconnected, but because they didn't reach the same level of in-law tensions, they didn't evoke such strong feelings," Mintz told the Associated Press.
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Note these two words: "Similar cases". Where's uproar? Where are these screaming for blood by Religious Zealots? Where's dramatic media?

Source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-03-24-schiavo-money-cover_x.htm

I want to post another wonderful statement by conservative. Yes, I just praised this conservative. Here it is:
"If the Schiavists are bucking for sainthood, that is their prerogative, though their behavior has been anything but saintly. But one may not demand saintliness of others."

"Many of the “strangulation”/“Michael wants to shut Terri up” stories seem to have originated with the Schindlers themselves. The Schiavists have portrayed Mrs. Schiavo’s parents as angels locked in mortal combat with her demonic husband. The truth is, the Schindlers are no angels. Their hatred of their son-in-law runs so deep, that they have for several years engaged in a ruthless campaign of defamation against him."
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Source: http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article4235.html

I want to post another wonderful statement by this fundamentalist. Yes... it was quite surprised that I praised this fundamentalist. Here it is:
As a fundamentalist, everyone in my fellowship stream believes SOLIDLY that life is NEVER to be prolonged artificially by hooking them up to any machine for the long term. Additionally, many of us are even a bit uncomfortable with the idea of heart transplants. Personally, I would chose to die rather than receive another person's cardial organ.

We do hold medicine and what it can do in high esteem. For example, with the combination of prayer and surgeons (some were fundamentalist friends of mine), I was saved from life of paralysis in a wheelchair by a seven hour spine operation. Additionally, in working out the diagnosis, we encountered times in which some enzymes in my body were 5000% over the tolerable level to live

We believe that Bush and his associates have completely misunderstood the fundamentalist tradition and Biblical perspective in the Schiavo case. Furthermore, we find it nefarious that Bush should try to tell us what we should believe when he is so ill equipped to understand the basic tenets of the conservative Christian faith
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Source: http://mediamatters.org/comments/latest/200503260001?p=1


Anyway, based on many, many facts and articles that I had been reading all day yesterday when I got home from the field trip. I finally formed a opinion about this case... What Michael Schiavo did is right thing since he did what his wife wishes. But... starvation? Thirsty to die? That is morally wrong... It is just wrong. I believe I am done with what I want to share. What I said about my opinion is just opinion.

Guys & Gals, Let's face it, the public is easily distracted... and we had been played by Corporate News/Media and politicans.

Later folks.
 
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Magatus, this is the one of the best postings I ever read across. Thanks for sharing!

-jeff
 
With all your respect, Magatsu, may I point out a few things to your posts?

What it seemed like hypocrisy when Tom DeLay disconnected life support machine to let his father to die, it was because his father suffered massive injuries and a brain hemorrhage. The elder DeLay was put on a ventilator and other machines to sustain him, but his health continued to deteriorate with no hope of recovery, so Tom and the rest of the family were in agreement to "let him go'. See the link: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-delay27mar27,1,1747897.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

Terri is different because she does not need machines to keep her alive - only a feeding tube is all she needed. And she was as healthy as she could be. Magatsu, some of us have no problem with life support machines - Some people who had their beloved ones on machines had to make decision to disconnect the life support machines if the injuries are too severe and there is no hope of recovery. And that is okay with me.

About Michael and his parents-in-laws fighting over the money, you overlooked one part in which Mary Schindler "testified that she and her husband found Schiavo studying. "We were talking about the money and about his money," she said. "That with his money and the money Terri got, now we could take her (for specialized care) or get some testing done. Do all this stuff. He said he was not going to do it." (from the same link you posted). The Schindlers were all for getting the therapy for Terri. In fact, much later they even told Michael he can have all the money if he wanted - only that he give their daughter back to them. (See the link: http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/SettlementLetter10-04.pdf ...it is in PDF format, hopefully you have the Adobe Reader to read it.) This shows that the Schindlers are not really after money after all...they only wanted their daughter back. But Michael utterly refused to give her up and stubbornly insisted it is Terri's wishes to die anyway.

And as for "Terri gets care and attention from the staff of Sabal Palms (nursing home) as a result of Mr. Schiavo's advocacy and defending on her behalf", however, the nurses who cared for Terri painted a very different picture of him. One nurse in particular gave an statement that Michael was very intimidating and he insisted no therapy be done for Terri, or allowed the nurses to feed Terri orally and asked repeatedly when Terri is going to die. I had posted this link before, so here it is again: http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/CIyerAffidavit090203.htm


And, about Michael turning down 1 million dollars (and 10 million dollars as well), it was because his lawyer George Felos told him not to accept them. I suspected that were it not for the lawyer Felos, Michael would probably cave in and accept the large amount of money. But then again, Michael probably can't think for himself without consulting his lawyer anyway. : P

I can't think of any more points to make here, so I think I'll get off the soap box for now, lol.
 
Toonces, with all your respect as well, I hope that you will understand there is two side in this messy case. I represented the other side of this case to offer the different perception about Schindler parents and Michael Schiavo.

Speaking of DeLay. How can it make any difference for him when he unplugged his dad's life support.... since he was the one who said, "''an act of barbarism" in removing the plug? Theresa Schiavo's body is, in fact, deteriorating due to cerebral spinal fluid too. 15 years? That is very long.

About nurse, to my understanding is that these nurses are not certificated or qualified to diagnose a persistant vegetative state. Maybe these nurses made up the stories. How do we really know what really going on. Why does people so fast believed in nurse's words than they can do for Michael? That is very, very disturbing, IMHO. Other people painted a different picture of Michael too as "care", "full of love", "patient person", etc etc.

Speaking of parents and money issue. Well, Michael clearly isn't after the money too. Even if not for his lawyer, I have no doubt that he will reject the offers. Maybe, good thing that Michael have that lawyer who stand up and urge him to stand firmly through these repeatedly hatred comments by so-called "Right-to-Live" fundmentalists. Anyone will cave in if they are plummeting by these so-called "Right-to-Live" fundmentalists who have lots of hatred and moral issues. I have this massive respect for Michael or even his lawyer.

Plus to these, even Supreme Court rejected Schiavo case... even with conservative judges. 22 times? With different judges? Something is definitely very wrong with this case, not judges or their decisions. After all, these judges have ruled on this case based on the law, not the editorial pages, or the partisan think tanks, or the P.T. Barnums of the Bible, or the delusional ramblings of the talk radio Borgias or even Fraud News (Foxnews).

*shrugs* after all, all cases have two sides.

Jeff, thanks ;]
 
I was not surprised when I read your post, Magastu because I KNEW it thru my feeling when I collect any information thru websites and TV etc. I has no good feeling about Terri's parents since I notice that they keep on make a bad picture about Michael than fight the rights against "remove feeding tube to starve" since he refused to give money to them in 1993.

One thing, I'm speechless to learn that Terri's father turn his mother's life support off. I was like wow when I read them... That's what I said in other thread and has the feeling that Terri's parents use "reglious" for an excuse. My Roman Catholic Grandma would of say something when she's alive. I know what reglious is because I was raised by my Grandparents.
http://www.alldeaf.com/showpost.php?p=306835&postcount=8

Funny what Terri's parents stated in the court that they have good team with Michael then label Michael as bad person in 1993. :ugh: Logically, it's money, Terri's parent see after.

3) Baby at center of life support case dies

Source: http://www.alldeaf.com/showthread.php?t=15705

Once again, where are these Religious Zealots screaming for Bush's blood because of his Texas Futile Care Law? it is pure murder! murder! Let me quote DeLay's statement: "an act of barbarism". Oh wait, is it because Bush approved this "Right-to-Die" action which accorded to his law in 1999? It was against mother's wishes. My friends & enemies, that is perfect hypocrisy. Next!
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One point, I'm strong disagree what the doctor did baby to against mother's wishes because the baby has no brain damage. :ugh:

I was like wow when I read this.

Mary Schindler later testified that Schiavo had promised money to his in-laws. They had helped him and Terri move from New Jersey to Pinellas County, let them live rent-free in their condominium and had given him other financial help.
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According to Schiavo's testimony, the Schindlers came into Terri's room in the nursing home, spoke to their daughter, then turned to him.

"The first words out of my father-in-law's mouth was how much money he was going to get," Schiavo said. "I was, 'What do you mean?' 'Well, you owe me money.' "

Schiavo said he told his in-laws that all the money had gone to his wife — a lie he said he told Bob Schindler "to shut him up because he was screaming."

Schiavo said his father-in-law called him "a few choice words," then stormed out of the room. Schiavo said he started to follow him, but his mother-in-law stepped in front of him, saying, "This is my daughter, our daughter, and we deserve some of this money."
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I see the clear that Terri's parents see after money and look something to revenage against Michael because Michael refuse to give money to them. I has no good feeling when I watch on the TV and read the newspapers, etc. etc about them. I has the feeling that they do something out of renevage against Michael since I saw on the list of date how Michael fall out with Terri's parents in 1993 and move out............ I feel the money issue is the mainly reason they fall out until I read your posts.
 
Toocnes's post
And as for "Terri gets care and attention from the staff of Sabal Palms (nursing home) as a result of Mr. Schiavo's advocacy and defending on her behalf", however, the nurses who cared for Terri painted a very different picture of him. One nurse in particular gave an statement that Michael was very intimidating and he insisted no therapy be done for Terri, or allowed the nurses to feed Terri orally and asked repeatedly when Terri is going to die. I had posted this link before, so here it is again: http://www.terrisfight.org/document...davit090203.htm
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Sorry, I don't believe ex-nurse's statement. It sounds fishy to me because Michael is not stupid.

He would not do that to doctors or nurses as what ex-nurse claimed. No, I don't buy her story. It's logically impossible.
 
It´s CRUEL and SELFISH to let Terri stay alive like this for other 15 years or rest of life.
It´s CRUEL and ABUSE to remove feeding tube to starving Terri to death.
It seem to me that Terri´s parents get medias and supporters around to against Michael and make a bad pictures about him which it´s SELFISH and CRUEL. Have you heard anything what Michael say against Terri´s parents? Nope, He only stated that he understood how Terri´s parents feel because Terri is their daughter. I can´t do anything to against Terri´s parents nor Michael but all what I listen their sides and respect them for that. I think Terri´s parents is the one who made a scandals and want supporters go to them.


To me, I rather let my hubby do for me, not my parents.
 
I agree with Liebling & Magatsu's views on this issue.

Let me share my personal experience on this - even though it's not the same, but my mother-in-law was in the hospital for several months, with doctors doing everything they could do for her, however, at end of few months, there was nothing they could do for her. My wife was there and her mother came close to death several times. After staying in ICU for few months, sleeping most of the time, but was able to communicate with her daughter (my wife), expressing her wishes to go home and free her spirit in her own place where she feels very comfortable & in peace, rather than in strange place like hospital. My wife supported her wishes, however, her son (my wife's brother) refused to respect her wishes and fought to keep her alive via feeding tube for several more months and it didn't make any difference. When he realized that, he finally respected his mother wishes to go home and she finally got to her peaceful place in two days.
 
Mag - you did a brilliant job of putting together the critical thinking essay of this case. I remained silent throughout other threads when everyone were using the word murderer or unfaithfulness.

I was reading LA Times everyday while was in LA for past ten days and you nailed it beautifully for me by posting what was said in LA Times.

Bottom line - this is between the son in law and the father. THe parents and son in law had a very close relationship and the parents even encouraged the son in law to move on and find girlfriends. Michael became a nurse in order to help her out. He was demanding but it shows that he cared.

It all soured when Michael won the judgements and the father wanted some piece of that.

I do not understand why people are fighting so hard to keep her in misery - she will never be happy in that state. Heaven is a much more pleasant place for her. Yes, starvation is a horrible way to go and I wish that there is a much more humane way to deal with this but I just cannot fathom her being happy in this vegetative state for next 15 years or whatnot.

Please do not lash out at me - I am entitled to my opinions as much as you do too and I really feel that Mr. Schiavo used Terri in his fight against Michael. Unfortunately the media got involved, unlike thousands of other situations like this.

I am not praising Michael but I can really understand where he is coming from and it is unfair that everyone is judging him so harshly. He devoted his life to Terri but after 15 years is enough. Michael even brought his girlfriend to visit and the Schiavos had no problem with that until the argument broke out over monetary judgements.

I really want to see Terri go in peace - she is being used by everyone - her parents, lawyers, media, religious folks, etc. Let her go. SHe never wanted to be a martyr.
 
Pfffft.....I still think otherwise, folks. :P



Anyway...oops...looks like lawyer George Felos goofed up. He claimed Michael Schiavo said he wanted autopsy after Terri's death. But it turned out it is not exactly true. Read on!




Autopsy Decision Not Made By Michael Schiavo, Official Says

By DAVID SOMMER
Published: Mar 30, 2005

CLEARWATER - It is not up to Michael Schiavo to decide whether his wife, Terri, should undergo an autopsy after death. ``He doesn't have any choice in the matter,'' said Bill Pellan, director of investigations for the Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner's Office.

Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin decides when an autopsy is required under state law, Pellan said.

On Monday, attorney George Felos announced that Michael Schiavo wanted an autopsy performed to silence critics who have accused him of planning to have Terri Schiavo's remains cremated to cover up wrongdoing.

"Claims have been made there is some motive behind the cremation,'' Felos said.

Pellan said Thogmartin had already decided that Terri Schiavo's situation requires him to perform an autopsy when another Schiavo lawyer called Monday to find out whether that was the case.

"There have been allegations that this is not a natural death,'' Pellan said.

Also, under state law, the medical examiner has the discretion of performing an autopsy when a body is to be cremated.

Michael Schiavo has obtained court permission to do so over the objection of Bob and Mary Schindler.

The Schindlers fought a seven-year legal battle with Schiavo over his desire to have his wife's feeding tube removed. They also objected on religious grounds to Schiavo's plans to cremate their daughter.

"Cremation is a very final form of disposition, and people want to make sure'' it is not done to cover up wrongdoing, Pellan said.

Michael Schiavo attorney Deborah Bushnell said her client wanted an autopsy performed when she called Monday to find out if that was Thogmartin's plan, Pellan said.

Felos and Bushnell could not be reached for comment.

source: http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBQWWF2X6E.html

Next to my extreme dislike for the tyrannical Judge Greer, I dislike George Felos even more. He's a manipulative snake, no doubt!
 
Meg/Swede/Liebling: Thanks and no problem ;]


This article blew me away. Right now, I really wish that I am able to hear the sounds because I want to hear Scarborough croaked when Neurologist Cranford confronted him.... Anyway, read on:


Neurologist Cranford confronted Scarborough, MSNBC daytime anchor: "[Y]ou're asking me if a CAT scan was done? How could you possibly be so stupid?"

On the March 28 edition of MSNBC's Scarborough Country, host Joe Scarborough interviewed Dr. Ronald Cranford, one of the two neurologists selected by Michael Schiavo to examine Terri Schiavo pursuant to an October 2001 appellate court mandate. As part of that duty, Cranford "reviewed her medical records and personally conducted a neurological examination of Mrs. Schiavo," according to the June 2003 Florida appeals court review of that hearing.

Following is the transcript of the interview:

SCARBOROUGH: Now, the question on everybody's mind tonight is this: How is Terri Schiavo doing? You know, it's been 10 days. She is starting her 11th day now without food and water. Let's go back to Pinellas Park [Florida], where Lisa Daniels [MSNBC daytime anchor] is standing by -- Lisa.

DANIELS: Well, Joe, at this point, we are going to delve into the medical aspect of the story. I want to bring in Dr. Ronald Cranford. He's a neurologist at Hennepin Medical Center in Minneapolis. And, Doctor, before we continue, I want our viewers to understand what your role was in the legal case. I understand that Michael Schiavo and his team asked you to examine his wife. Is that correct?

CRANFORD: Yes. Yes, they did.

DANIELS: And from my understanding, I just want to be accurate, you examined Terri Schiavo for about 45 minutes. Is that right?

CRANFORD: I think 42 minutes, but 45 is fine, sure.

DANIELS: All right. Well, we want to be accurate here. What was your conclusion at the end of --

[crosstalk]

CRANFORD: Wait a minute. You are not accurate on a lot of things here. You're saying a lot of -- she's not starving to death. Do you understand that? She is dehydrating to death.

DANIELS: Well, why do you say that? Tell us how you came to that conclusion?

[crosstalk]

CRANFORD: Can I tell you why? Because I have done this 25 to 50 times. I don't know how many times Joe has done it, but I've done it 25 to 50 times in similar situations. And they die within 10 to 14 days.

Nancy Cruzan did not die in six days [as guest Patrick Mahoney of the Christian Defense Coalition suggested earlier in the program]. She died in 11 days, 11.5 hours. And Terri Schiavo will die within 10 to 14 days. And they are dying of dehydration, not starvation. And that's just a lie. And Joe doesn't have any idea what he is talking about. And you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

DANIELS: Well --

CRANFORD: I have been at the bedside of these patients. I know what they die from. I've seen them die. And this is all bogus. It's all just a bunch of crap that you are saying. It's totally wrong.

DANIELS: Well, with all due respect, Doctor, it sounds like you think that you know what you are talking about, so let's ask you about that.

CRANFORD: Sure.

DANIELS: Are you 100 percent correct in your opinion that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state? Do you agree with that?

CRANFORD: I am 105 percent sure she is in a vegetative state. And the autopsy will show severe irreversible brain damage to the higher centers, yes.

DANIELS: Why are you so sure, Doctor?

CRANFORD: Because I examined her. The court-appointed guardian examined her. Four neurologists at the hospital where she was has said she's carried a diagnosis of vegetative state for 12 years. Every neurologist that examined her, except for Dr. [William] Hammesfahr [a neurologist selected by Terri Schiavo's parents], who is a charlatan, has said she is in vegetative state. That's what the court found. Just because you don't like --

[crosstalk]

DANIELS: Doctor, was a CAT scan -- Doctor, your critics would ask you, was a CAT scan used? Was an MRI taken? Were any of these tests taken?

CRANFORD: You don't know the answer to that? The CAT scan was done in 1996, 2002. We spent a lot of time in court showing the irreversible -- you don't have copies of those CAT scans? How can you say that?

The CAT scans are out there, distributed to other people. You have got to look at the facts. The CAT scan is out there. It shows severe atrophy of the brain. The autopsy is going to show severe atrophy of the brain. And you're asking me if a CAT scan was done? How could you possibly be so stupid?

SCARBOROUGH: Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait a second.

[crosstalk]

SCARBOROUGH: Hold on a second, if I can interrupt here.

CRANFORD: Go ahead. Joe, interrupt me.

SCARBOROUGH: Why don't you go ahead and tell the rest of the story there? Why don't you tell us that the radiologist that looked at the two CAT scans said she showed improvement in 2002 over 1996? You know, you seem so sure of yourself. The Associated Press reported yesterday --

CRANFORD: Joe, the judge didn't believe him.

SCARBOROUGH: Hold on a second. Hold on a second. You're so sure of yourself -- respond to this. AP had a report yesterday. They said seven doctors have looked at her. Four said she was in persistent vegetative state. You were one of them, hired by Michael Schiavo to do that. There were three others that looked at her that disagreed. How can you be so absolutely sure that everybody that agrees with you is 100 percent accurate and everybody on the other side is a charlatan?

CRANFORD: Joe, Judge -- Judge [George W.] Greer disallowed, didn't believe what [Dr. William] Maxfield [a doctor selected by Terri Schiavo's parents] said. You got your numbers wrong. There were eight neurologists saw her. Seven of the eight said she was in a vegetative state. Only one said she wasn't.

SCARBOROUGH: I am quoting an Associated Press report from yesterday.

CRANFORD: Joe, you've got to get your facts straight.

SCARBOROUGH: I have got my facts straight.

CRANFORD: Get your facts straight. You've got your facts way off.

SCARBOROUGH: Why don't we talk about -- hold on a second.

CRANFORD: Go ahead.

SCARBOROUGH: You talked about a 1996 scan.

CRANFORD: No, 2002, 2002.

SCARBOROUGH: Let's talk about it. A radiologist told the court that the 2002 scan actually showed improvement over the 1996 scan. Is that inaccurate? Did the AP report that wrong?

CRANFORD: Absolutely. Maxfield said it was improved. And Judge Greer didn't buy it because the others said it wasn't improved. It was probably worse than it was before.

SCARBOROUGH: Is he a charlatan also?

CRANFORD: Yes. Maxfield is an HBO [hyperbaric oxygen], vasodilator -- look it up, Joe. See what vasodilator does. See what hyperbaric oxygen, see in these cases, and you tell me they are not charlatans. Just because you don't agree with me -- I don't call everybody a charlatan. I'm not calling [Dr. Richard] Cheshire [who has argued that Terri Schiavo is not in a persistent vegetative state] a charlatan. I think he's a reputable neurologist. I think he examined her, he interviewed her. So, just because I disagree, I don't call them charlatans. But you have got your facts so far off that it's unbelievable, Joe. You don't have any idea what you are talking about. You've never been at the bedside of these patients. And this will come out in the next three to five years about this condition and starvation.

SCARBOROUGH: You were there 42 minutes, Doctor.

CRANFORD: Yes, I was.

SCARBOROUGH: You are only one doctor that's been there. And somehow, in your 42 minutes of observing her, you have all the answers and everybody that disagrees is dead wrong, I guess.

CRANFORD: No, that's just a -- you know what? You've gotta see what Judge Greer said. You've gotta see what the appeals court said. If you read that, Joe, you will understand why the judge decided the way he did.

SCARBOROUGH: All right.

CRANFORD: He didn't believe Hammesfahr. He didn't believe Maxfield. And it's not starvation. And Nancy Cruzan did not die in six days. She died in 11 days and 11.5 hours, 11 days and 11.5 hours.

SCARBOROUGH: All right.

CRANFORD: OK?

SCARBOROUGH: Thank you, Doctor.

CRANFORD: My pleasure.

SCARBOROUGH: You know what? This is the disappointing thing. You try to have a conversation. You try to talk about what is going on. And I found this as an attorney, too. I have been attorneys for plaintiffs. I have been attorneys for defendants. And what I always find out is, there are certain doctors -- I am not claiming that this doctor is a charlatan. I don't know his body of work. I am not claiming that he is a hired gun.

But too many doctors out there can be bought off by attorneys on either side. And then they come out, instead of telling you the facts, you get into debate like you are talking to an attorney. It is very, very disappointing.

I want to apologize to Lisa for interrupting her, but the thing is, Lisa was getting attacked because of what I said. I think that is unfair.

Source: http://mediamatters.org/items/200503290005


Wait a minute, I want to discuss a bit about this excerpt:

There were eight neurologists saw her. Seven of the eight said she was in a vegetative state. Only one said she wasn't.

My gosh. 7 out of 8 neurologists determined that she was in a vegetative state. That's 7 out of 8! Bill Frist clearly isn't neurologist, he is a heart surgeon and yet media bought his 'bogus' diagnose of Terri Schiavo based on highly editted video tape. How stupid the corporate media can be? Seriously...
 
Court rejects latest Schiavo appeal

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. -- With time running out for Terri Schiavo, a federal appeals court Wednesday rejected her parents' latest attempt to get the brain-damaged woman's feeding tube reconnected.

The Atlanta-based 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals agreed to consider an emergency bid by Bob and Mary Schindler for a new hearing in their case, raising a flicker of hope for the parents after a series of setbacks in the case. But the court rejected the bid 15 hours later -- the fourth time since last week the court ruled against the Schindlers.

"Any further action by our court or the district court would be improper," Judge Stanley F. Birch Jr. wrote. "While the members of her family and the members of Congress have acted in a way that is both fervent and sincere, the time has come for dispassionate discharge of duty."

Birch went on to scold President Bush and Congress for their attempts to intervene in the judicial process, by saying: "In resolving the Schiavo controversy, it is my judgment that, despite sincere and altruistic motivation, the legislative and executive branches of our government have acted in a manner demonstrably at odds with our Founding Fathers' blueprint for the governance of a free people -- our Constitution."

To be granted, the parents' request would have needed the support of seven of the court's 12 judges. The court did not disclose the vote breakdown.

The Schindlers visited their daughter Wednesday morning at her hospice and urged their supporters to keep trying. "I was pleasantly surprised by what I saw," Bob Schindler said. "So she's still fighting, and we'll keep fighting." "We know that some of her organs are still functioning. ... It's not too late," he said.

In requesting a new hearing, the Schindlers argued that a federal judge in Tampa should have considered the entire state court record and not whether previous Florida court rulings met legal standards under state law. The Schindlers' motion also said the federal appellate court in Atlanta didn't consider whether there was enough "clear and convincing" evidence that Terri Schiavo would have chosen to die in her current condition.

Source: http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-ustube0331,0,4989072.story?coll=ny-top-headlines
 
cclough said:
In the 11th Circuit decision the courts finally spoke in regards to the Constitutionality of the law passed by Congress, namely that it is a violation of the separation of powers under Article III of the Constitution.
Click to expand...
Anyone who have the acrobat reader installed can download this: 11th Circuit decision and read. Thanks to this: cclough for information.

About time that the court spoke up about Congress and their unconstitutional intervention.
 
Toonces, well I will ask my professors to find out. One thing that does puzzled me when I read that article you posted in other topic... I want to ask you a question, why does it legitimate for heart surgeon like Bill Frist to diagnose Theresa's condition through heavily editted video tape while it is not legitmate (possibly) for neurologist(s) to diagnose her condition? I mean, Media took Bill Frist's words like it was Bible's holy verse or something.


Addition: The Court ruled 9 to 2 against the Schindler's petition. The two dissenting Justices (1- Ford appointee, 1-Clinton appointee). All 6 Reagan/Bush appointees voted against the Schindlers.

Judge Stanley Birch, appointed in 1990, by George Bush Sr., writing in the majority, delivered this rebuke:
"A popular epithet directed by some members of society, including some members of Congress, toward the judiciary involves the denunciation of "activist judges." Generally, the definition of an "activist judge" is one who decides the outcome of a controversy before him according to personal conviction, even one sincerely held, as opposed to the dictates of the law as constrained by legal precedent and, ultimately, our Constitution. In resolving the Schiavo controversy it is my judgment that, despite sincere and altruistic motivation, the legislative and executive branches of our government have acted in a manner demonstrably at odds with our Founding Fathers' blueprint for the governance of a free people -- our Constitution. Since I have sworn, as have they, to uphold and defend that Covenant, I must respectfully concur in the denial of the request for rehearing en banc."
Click to expand...
Source: 11th Circuit Rebukes Delay, Frist, Bush
 
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Huh, a heart surgeon like Bill Frist diagnosing Theresa's condition through heavily editted video tape? I guess I could say he would get inaccurate results just by looking at the videotapes. And do I dare to say that a heart surgeon is not the right person to have a look at Terri, because he doesn't have any expertise with the brain area? To tell the truth I really am not familiar with Dr. Bill Frist at all. ^^;;; *Needs to research some more*



Hmmm...does that mean Judge Stanley Birch is covertly supporting "activist judges"?
 
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