Do you support abortion as

Do you support abortion as

  • a legal?

    Votes: 39 63.9%
  • an illegal?

    Votes: 22 36.1%

  • Total voters
    61
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You have clearly demonstrated ignorant, misinformed, biased nature of overly-emotional, overly-sensitive anti-abortionist because:
1. the "fetus/embryo" which you call it as "baby" or "child" just for emotional impact
2. Ignoring the well-established scientific and legal definition for fetus at different stages
3. By hearing the word "parasite" for a "child".... you get all hot and angry.

You view parasite as a blood-sucking leech or some slimy tapeworm thus an inappropriate word for baby. I agree that the word "parasite" does not bode well with the description of fetus but technically... fetus is of a parasitic nature. That is not my word nor my opinion. That is not Jillio or Byrdie's opinion nor word either. This was debated and argued and established and understood and finally agreed by scientific and medical community.

I know we want to view fetus as a sacred, beautiful life growing inside us. So lovely and beautiful. But we have to put away emotional, abstract feeling for a moment. This is science and law. We need to establish a concrete guideline for legal purpose. That's why a miscarriage does not receive a legal recognition as a person. That's why there are terms like "1st... 2nd.... 3rd trimester." So on...
 
Now you bring emotion into it......
It was a silly joke to Jiro, How do you must know how I feel behind the Internet?

And if he had a problem with my post, he is entitle to say so, not you or Jillio. It wasn't quoted to either one of you.
 
Ok Hermes and Cheri and all..... let's put away dictionary, encyclopedia, etc for a moment..... Let's use our basic biology knowledge that we have learned from schools.

1. Can you kindly tell me what is the basic nature of parasite and its function?
2. Is it not true that parasite needs a host to survive?
3. Is it not true that if the host dies, the parasite will die as well?

MMMMMMMMMM?

You can not make these kind of general assumptions in science. Using your method I can prove a virus is a bacteria then:

1. They both make people ill
2. You take medicine against both or their effects.
3. They are both microscopic creatures living in a host body.

Are you telling me I proved a virus is a bacteria now? No this is not the method. You can not classify things in science using common features. For example not everything that lives on ground, feeds and dies is a human.

I am saying it again, do you know where fetus is a parasite comes from? Abortion debates. Do you know why its said? Here we go:


If anything, a fetus is merely a parasitical creature that uses the mother as its host.

Tapeworms are parasites that house themselves in the intestinal tracts of humans, feeding off the food the host consumes. Comparatively, a fetus is little more than a tapeworm. It is quite common for humans to annihilate parasites with medications or toxins, so why not allow for fetuses to suffer the same fate?

http://www.alldeaf.com/topic-debates/52387-do-you-support-abortion-25.html#post1095512


Its from an article I posted here. First its called parasite while no scientific data supports it and then its being said, if its a parasite it can be annihilated like a tapeworm with toxins. It even asks , why not allow the fetuses to suffer from the same fate .

No source , or scientist or scientific data calls fetus a parasite. Only people who wants to annihilate it like a tapeworm do.
 
Nor did it say, "This post is only for Jiro." That is what PM is for. This is an open forum, and any member is entitled to comment on any post made.
 
Nor did it say, "This post is only for Jiro." That is what PM is for. This is an open forum, and any member is entitled to comment on any post made.

And you took my post the wrong way, you let your emotions start flying out of nowhere.
 
You can not make these kind of general assumptions in science. Using your method I can prove a virus is a bacteria then:

1. They both make people ill
2. You take medicine against both or their effects.
3. They are both microscopic creatures living in a host body.

Are you telling me I proved a virus is a bacteria now? No this is not the method. You can not classify things in science using common features. For example not everything that lives on ground, feeds and dies is a human.

I am saying it again, do you know where fetus is a parasite comes from? Abortion debates. Do you know why its said? Here we go:

This is completely absurd. Bacteria and virus are two different organisms. And no one with any knowledge of science knows that living on the ground and feeding is not criteria for falling into the homosapien genus.

And virus and bacteria exist outside a host, as well.



Its from an article I posted here. First its called parasite while no scientific data supports it and then its being said, if its a parasite it can be annihilated like a tapeworm with toxins. It even asks , why not allow the fetuses to suffer from the same fate .

Scientific data support the very fact that a fetus is totally dependent upon a host for existence. Again, show me a case where a fetus has ever been conceived and gestated without a female body. You cannot do it, because it has never been done.

And a fetus can be annilated with toxins. There are many substances that cross theplacental barrier to the fetus and destroy it so that a spontaneous abortion occurs.


No source , or scientist or scientific data calls fetus a parasite. Only people who wants to annihilate it like a tapeworm do.

You are completely incorrect in that statement. And here's a little grammar tip for you. Saying something is of a parasitic nature is not the same as saying it is a parasite. Stop misquoting in an attempt to support your position.
 
You can not make these kind of general assumptions in science. Using your method I can prove a virus is a bacteria then:

1. They both make people ill
2. You take medicine against both or their effects.
3. They are both microscopic creatures living in a host body.

Are you telling me I proved a virus is a bacteria now? No this is not the method. You can not classify things in science using common features. For example not everything that lives on ground, feeds and dies is a human.
but... that's not how I approach to conclusion. You're missing several more steps :cool2: and plus - virus and bacteria are irrelevant to this subject since it is not of a parasitic nature. they do not rely on host. they simply infect and propagate.

I am saying it again, do you know where fetus is a parasite comes from? Abortion debates. Do you know why its said? Here we go:

Its from an article I posted here. First its called parasite while no scientific data supports it and then its being said, if its a parasite it can be annihilated like a tapeworm with toxins. It even asks , why not allow the fetuses to suffer from the same fate .

No source , or scientist or scientific data calls fetus a parasite. Only people who wants to annihilate it like a tapeworm do.
We've already proved that fetus can be "annihilated" by mother's immune system. It's happen all the time. If the fetus is in its very early stage, the doctor does provide pills for mothers to take to kill it.
 
And you took my post the wrong way, you let your emotions start flying out of nowhere.

I'm not emotional at all, in this case. I provided a quite logical response. Perhaps you don't know how to tell the difference between logic and emotion any better than between a fetus and baby.
 
No, sweetie, I read thoroughly. But obviously you don't. No one here wants a fetus to be parasitic in nature. Desire doesn't have anything to do with it. The hard fact is a fetus is of a parasitic nature. Show me a case of a pregnancy that has been conceived and full gestated outside the support of a woman's body. You cannot do it, because one does not exist.

Read my post I wrote Jiro above. Not everything shares some features classifiyed as such. I am still waiting a source supporting your notion. I gave you one where fetus is called parasite and asked to be inhiliated from a abortion debate. But you still didnt give me one scientific source making this conclusion. You were saying fetus is a parasite , now it became parasitic nature. Which is not true either.

Like I said just because human lives on ground , feeds and dies, dont make anything shares these features have a humanly nature. This is not the method.

Its your personal idea. And you dont use scientific methods for making this conclusion. You are selectively picking data and try applying it to wrong cases.

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Read my post I wrote Jiro above. Not everything shares some features classifiyed as such. I am still waiting a source supporting your notion. I gave you one where fetus is called parasite and asked to be inhiliated from a abortion debate. But you still didnt give me one scientific source making this conclusion. You were saying fetus is a parasite , now it became parasitic nature. Which is not true either.

Like I said just because human lives on ground , feeds and dies, dont make anything shares these features have a humanly nature. This is not the method.

Its your personal idea. And you dont use scientific methods for making this conclusion. You are selectively picking data and try applying it to wrong cases.
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I have no idea what you are waiting on because I, as well as several other posters have given you evidence that a fetus is of a parasitic nature. You, on the other hand, have provided absolutely nothing to support your claim that a fetus is not of a parasitic nature.

You logic has huge gaps. You are using circular and fallicious reasoning to reach your claims.

Please show me scientific evidence, that for a fetus to exist, it can be created and gestated with full dependence on the female's body. When you can do that, you will have supported your claim that a fetus is not of a parasitic nature. I have already provided you evidence that a fetus must have a female body to exist and to gestate. Medical science has provide that evidence. Biology has provided that evidence. Many, many posters have provided that evidence. You simply choose to ignore it because you can't refute it.

And, yes I do use scientific methods for reaching my conclusions, as well as scientific evidence. Nor is it my personal idea that a fetus cannot exist and gestate without support of the female body for all of its biological developmental needs. It is scientific fact. If you want to argue fact, you need to come up with fact that refutes the scientific evidence. You have come up with nothing but emotion and semantics.
 
but... that's not how I approach to conclusion. You're missing several more steps :cool2: and plus - virus and bacteria are irrelevant to this subject since it is not of a parasitic nature. they do not rely on host. they simply infect and propagate.

Ohh Jiro, you asked me sources , I showed them to you . You said ok lets ignore official sources :) .. You gave me example of how you make scientific classification , I showed you science doesnt work that way . You said virus bacteria is irrelevant you didnt even listen what I am saying about "method" . :) I gave you facts in other threads, you didnt want to read them :) Besides all that I kept asking one source saying fetus is categorized as a parasite out of abortion debates. One scientific source but you denied providing it .

What can I say.. My aim is not changing your mind, since it is impossible for you and Jillo. I put enough source, information and conclusion on the table. People reading you notion of "Fetus is a parasite" will also read my posts and decide for themselves. At least they wont be misinformed.

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Ohh Jiro, you asked me sources , I showed them to you . You said ok lets ignore official sources :) .. You gave me example of how you make scientific classification , I showed you science doesnt work that way . You said virus bacteria is irrelevant you didnt even listen what I am saying about "method" . :) I gave you facts in other threads, you didnt want to read them :) Besides all that I kept asking one source saying fetus is categorized as a parasite out of abortion debates. One scientific source but you denied providing it .

What can I say.. My aim is not changing your mind, since it is impossible for you and Jillo. I put enough source, information and conclusion on the table. People reading you notion of "Fetus is a parasite" will also read my posts and decide for themselves. At least they wont be misinformed.

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You have not provided anything that proves that a fetus can exist and gestate without total dependence on a woman's body. You have presented opinion. Opinion and emotion do not decide law. Fact and medical evidence decides law. And the scientific evidence and medical fact is what was used to decide the legal principles of elective abortion for women, as well as the restrictions placed on 2nd trimester abortions.

Again you are misquoting. Do you not realize the distortions you are creating in context, or are you doing it purposely?
 
What can I say.. My aim is not changing your mind, since it is impossible for you and Jillo. I put enough source, information and conclusion on the table. People reading you notion of "Fetus is a parasite" will also read my posts and decide for themselves. At least they wont be misinformed.

You mean you use a very selective source, information to form a conclusion that favors you? Let's get one thing correct. very important -

Fetus is OF A PARASITIC NATURE.
 
You mean you use a very selective source, information to form a conclusion that favors you? Let's get one thing correct. very important -

Fetus is OF A PARASITIC NATURE.

Absolutely. It cannot survive without the full biological support of its host. A virus or a bacteria, as the poster attempted to classify as a parasite, is not, as it exists independently in various and sundry environments.
 
I found this randomly in google. It was rather amusing.

Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry aka CARM.
Jamie: I don't think many people would refer to their pregnancy as a parasite, but it is in fact, scientifically descriptive and provides a basis for understanding the built-in traps inherent in discussing the "right to life" arguments.

Matt: In order for is to make our sins more palatable, we often use words that are void of morality. For example, adultery is called an affair. The word "adultery" carries with it the issue of sin. But, the term "affair" doesn't. Secularism tells us people had an affair, not that they committed adultery and broke their covenant with each other and with God.

Likewise, the term "parasite" contains a negative connotation. The use of the term "parasite," when describing a life in the womb, strongly tilts the emotional reaction to that life towards the negative. When that negativity takes root, it is far easier to destroy that life. This is why it is so important to use proper terms when discussing such a moral issue, and abortion is a moral issue!

Don't be mistaken, the built-in trap is when ethics and morality are stripped away through sterilized words which avoid the ethical and moral responsibility given to us by God to protect and defend the innocent and weak. Just because something might be technically correct in the definition does not mean that it is sufficiently descriptive and is proper to use. We are more than technicalities. We are human beings living in a moral world and we will be held accountable for our actions by a very moral God.


Jamie: A human fetus ceases to become a "parasite" when it can sustain an independent existence outside the womb.

Matt: All right, for the sake of argument, since you are a male named Jamie, I'll now appoint you a pregnant wife for this dialogue:


Matt: Hello, Jamie. [I look at your wife's abdomen] I see you are with parasite.
Jamie: What?
Matt: With parasite. [I point to her abdomen]
Jamie: Well, I wouldn't exactly call it a parasite. It is our future child.
Matt: It is not a child now, correct?
Jamie: Correct, it is a fetus.
Matt: Is it not sucking the life from your wife, feeding off of her body, taking nourishment from her, and forcing her to go through various unpleasantries, as she works hard to increase her food intake so as to provide for her own life as well as the parasitic life in her womb?
Jamie: Well, technically, yes, but...
Matt: And is the fetus giving anything back in return?
Jamie: No, except maybe, well...
Matt: So, it is feeding off of your wife and not giving anything back. Therefore, you have a parasite growing in her. Wouldn't the smart thing to do be to kill it?
Jamie: Wait, you are being way too cold and rude about this.
Matt: I am being perfectly logical. Can you please tell me if you have decided to kill the parasite or not?
Jamie: Look, I don't like how this conversation is going. You are being insulting.
Matt: How, by calling what is in your wife a parasite? How is that insulting? Is that not an accurate description?
Jamie: Yes, but it is demeaning.
Matt: What do feelings have to do with the technically correct term? I fail to see the wisdom in continuing to have a parasite indwelling your wife when you know it is sapping her strength and feeding off of her body. I think you are illogical.
Jamie: Look, I've had about enough of this. You are insulting to our child.
Matt: It is technically not a child according to you, and it is also technically correct to call the thing a parasite. Can you please tell me if you have decided to keep or kill the parasite?
Jamie: We have chosen to have this child. We are going to have a baby.
Matt: I see. So you have chosen to retain the life of the pre-viable parasite.
Jamie: I suppose you're correct. [Jamie's wife smacks me upside the head.]

Jamie: The humanness of the fetus does not depend upon its status as a parasite or as a viable independent organism. Parasite is a descriptive term of a developmental phase of humans. Conceding that life begins at conception does not alter the developmental phases of the fetus or its pre-viability parasitic nature.

Matt: If the humanness of the fetus is independent of its status as a parasite or viable organism, then what you are saying is that its nature is not contingent upon its dependence on the mother. This means that it has human nature (since it is the product of human sperm and a human egg) and the argument of location (in or out of the womb) is irrelevant to the nature of the life. The parasite is inside of a woman, according to you, but when that same life is outside the woman, it is no longer a parasite. Therefore, it is you who is not being consistent.

Also, a correction. Life does not begin at conception. Life continues at conception since the sperm and the egg are both alive, come together, and produce a fertilized egg -- which is human in its essence.


Jamie: The relevance of the parasitic status of the fetus comes into play in determining whether or not the fetus may or may not be at a viable stage in its development at the time of an abortion, in which case life support measures could be undertaken to sustain its existence.

Matt: So clean and sterile a description. How distant it is from morality and decency. This is the formula of death -- an appeal to the neutered description of barren fact so that "objective" measurement can be made to determining whether or not the parasite should live or die. Its humanity is irrelevant. Only the convenience of the mother should be the deciding factor over life and death.


Jamie: The arguments for an elective abortion end at the point that the fetus is capable of independent existence, at which point, the fetus is entitled to some protection. However, the mother's choice to terminate a pregnancy still trumps that of a viable fetus when serious medical complications arise. Most 3rd trimester abortions are done to save the life of the mother, or because the fetus is seriously deformed or suffering from a disease that will cause it to have a brief, but miserable life. There is no state that allows 3rd trimester abortions merely for "convenience."

Matt: Secularism does not agree with you. The option of abortion continues up to the moment of birth in the atrocity known as partial-birth abortion. You offer nothing morally to object to that heinous act. You simply state that the fetus is entitled to some form of protection at viability. By what standard do you assert that? Do you make it up? Why is viability the point where protection should be offered? What you're promoting is arbitrary and subjective opinion. What moral standard do you have by which you claim this?

To say that the mother's choice trumps the right of protection of the life in the womb is to say that the life, which is human by nature, has no inherent human value. If it did have inherent human value, due to its human nature, it would automatically be entitled to full protection. But this cannot be the case when you offer us stripped, sterilized, and amoral descriptions of that human life. With such hygienic terms, you provide a cold and hard surface on which to build the doctrine of death.

Late trimester abortions of badly developed children is a more complicated topic worth deeper discussion. But, let me tell you that I have personally experienced that exact situation with my son Jacob who had a birth defect that killed him shortly after birth. My wife and I never entertained the idea of destroying him because he was not perfect. If the world were to live by that standard -- that the destruction of life is related to its "perfectness" -- then we'd better hope and pray that a despotic government doesn't take over and redefine what is perfect as it looks out upon the field of its population in order to decide what is chaff and what is wheat.


Jamie:Of course, not many people, if any, use the term "parasite" in reference to the unborn; it is still, however, scientifically descriptive and helps us understand violations of bodily integrity that an unwanted pregnancy presents.

Matt: It is a parasite when you don't want it. It is a baby when you do. This is a dangerous precipice to draw near to. Once you fall into the pit of granting value to human life based upon what you desire about that life, then you cannot complain when someone stronger than you deems your life less valuable and seeks to destroy it for the same rationale. You cannot retreat into the "viability" option and the inherent value of human life at this point, because the antagonist needs only to strip you of your humanity by describing you in sterile and cold words in order to justify his action.

Jamie: The innocence of the fetus in its pre-viable parasitic phase has no relevance. The innocence of the third party does not make a difference in whether or not a forced pregnancy is a violation of bodily integrity. You have the right to guard the integrity of your bodies using whatever means necessary even when that integrity is threatened by a non-sentient organism such as a fetus. Courts have even upheld a person's right to defend via force or killing against the advances of an attacking somnabulist.

Matt: When you use the terms "pre-viable parasitic phase" to describe the baby in the womb, then of course the morality that underscores innocence has no footing. There can be no innocence with parasitic material because innocence implies humanity, purpose, integrity, and morality. As soon as these are introduced into the discussion, the coldness of your descriptions become glaringly insufficient and the consequences of morally reprehensible behavior is made evident. What you have convinced me of the most is the ploy used by the unbelievers to strip the child of humanity, of emotional attachment and natural value, and replace it with pre-viable parasitic sterility so that they can justify killing it for their own comfort.

When your wife gets pregnant, please make sure that you have a T-shirt made for her to wear out in public that says, "Developing, pre-viable, nonhuman, parasite inside."
 
Excellent post, Jiro. It condenses everything we have already said very nicely, and refutes all of the unsubstantiated emotional claims jsut as nicely.
 
I have no idea what you are waiting on because I, as well as several other posters have given you evidence that a fetus is of a parasitic nature. You, on the other hand, have provided absolutely nothing to support your claim that a fetus is not of a parasitic nature.

You logic has huge gaps. You are using circular and fallicious reasoning to reach your claims.

Please show me scientific evidence, that for a fetus to exist, it can be created and gestated with full dependence on the female's body. When you can do that, you will have supported your claim that a fetus is not of a parasitic nature. I have already provided you evidence that a fetus must have a female body to exist and to gestate. Medical science has provide that evidence. Biology has provided that evidence. Many, many posters have provided that evidence. You simply choose to ignore it because you can't refute it.

And, yes I do use scientific methods for reaching my conclusions, as well as scientific evidence. Nor is it my personal idea that a fetus cannot exist and gestate without support of the female body for all of its biological developmental needs. It is scientific fact. If you want to argue fact, you need to come up with fact that refutes the scientific evidence. You have come up with nothing but emotion and semantics.

Ok lets try it together. Both a virus and bacteria live in host, and make it ill. If you use taking common features and ignoring rest as your method yes we can say a fetus is a parasite and a virus is a bacteria.

Parasites are not created by their hosts. Fetus does. I can not show you how a fetus can be created out of the host because all offsprings are created by their parents. Being created by the parent organism makes fetus an offspring not a parasite.

Fetus depends on female body. Also HIV virus depends on human body to survive. HIV virus is not a parasite. Everything depends on host do not fall into category parasite.

Besides that I gave you definitions from official sources, the moment you saw them you ignored it and said think out of the box. :)

I gave you all these sources , information, I challenged the scientific validity of your method. Besides that I dont have to prove a fetus is not a parasite because there is no scientific source categorize it as such at the first place. You deny providing sources probably because you couldnt find one yet. This argument is not like you brought all the scientific sources and I am trying to prove otherwise.

Since I gave enough information on the subject for helping other people to make up their mind, there is no need to keep arguing more with petrus. If you bring any real scientific source classifying fetus as a parasite, if you can show everybody here fetuses are considered parasites instead of offsprings, I will read it and respond to that. Otherwise there is no need to keep repeating same thing again and again..

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You have not provided anything that proves that a fetus can exist and gestate without total dependence on a woman's body. You have presented opinion. Opinion and emotion do not decide law. Fact and medical evidence decides law.

Just tell me one thing and then I will step back: Is everything depending on the host a parasite? You say yes and I will apologize from you.

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Besides that I gave you definitions from official sources, the moment you saw them you ignored it and said think out of the box. :)

I gave you all these sources , information, I challenged the scientific validity of your method. Besides that I dont have to prove a fetus is not a parasite because there is no scientific source categorize it as such at the first place. You deny providing sources probably because you couldnt find one yet. This argument is not like you brought all the scientific sources and I am trying to prove otherwise.
We ignored your post the moment your logic became horrendously erroneous.

Since I gave enough information on the subject for helping other people to make up their mind, there is no need to keep arguing more with petrus. If you bring any real scientific source classifying fetus as a parasite, if you can show everybody here fetuses are considered parasites instead of offsprings, I will read it and respond to that. Otherwise there is no need to keep repeating same thing again and again..
I fear for people who took your word because what you gave is a gross misinformation and very misleading. I believe my post about CARM is more than enough to help other people to make up their mind. It is clean of bias and emotion.
 
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