Do I Understand?

pek1 said:
Okay . . . so, since you and jackie are both educated, as well as shel, perhaps there needs to be a consensus to agree to disagree and leave it as that? Research may show that both ways of educating work. Can this be a possibility?
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jillio said:
:topic:
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......or is it an awkward suggestion?
Both - I guess
:topic:

I know
 
Cloggy said:
Being the mother of a deaf child.... wouldn't that be "second party"?
Who is, according to your counting, the "second party". (CODA perhaps?)
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Cloggy,

Second party isn't factored in. You're the mother of a deaf child, hence first party (and second [you] if so chosen), third party is someone who has no direct ties (family member, et al) to a situation. For example, you and husband have a disagreement and can't come to concensus. You go to a counselor who becomes third party. This is the part jillio plays, as outsider looking in (no pun inteded, although I know I'm gonna get called on that remark!).
 
pek1 said:
Cloggy,

Second party isn't factored in. You're the mother of a deaf child, hence first party (and second [you] if so chosen), third party is someone who has no direct ties (family member, et al) to a situation. For example, you and husband have a disagreement and can't come to concensus. You go to a counselor who becomes third party. This is the part jillio plays, as outsider looking in (no pun inteded, although I know I'm gonna get called on that remark!).
Click to expand...

Cloggy is not first party. He is a father of a deaf child same as Jillo who is a mother of a deaf child (in her case the child has grown up). That mkaes them 2nd party while we, as deaf individuals, r first party, right?
 
Cloggy said:
From everything you write, you go through great deals to understand the Deaf community...
And when one wants to learn signlanguage perfectly in order to comunicate with your son, it's only natural to become as much involved as possible.

But why do you need to ask the question.... Why the need to get it verified by others??
If you know... isn't that enough... Do you need verification from others?
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Becasue cloggy, I not only have a Deaf son, but am also personally and professionally involved with the deaf community. Because of my son, and because of my personal ties to the deaf community, I have seen untold injustices perpetrated against deaf individuals in the educational environment, in the work environment, and in the social environment. That fact spurred me to continue my education, and take it to a level whereby I would have the educational AND the personal experience necessary to be effective in taking the action necessary to begin changing some of those injustices.

It is the deaf/Deaf community that I work for, in effect. In order to take the action to make changes and rectify situations that are unjust for them, I must know what it is they feel, and why they feel that way. I must know what their needs are,and why those needs are valid. I must understand why one thing is more effective than another, and why that is so. The deaf community themselves are the source ofthat information. It is my intent and my goal to advocate for the deaf community fromthe perspective of the deaf community. To otherwise is to advocate from the hearing perspective, or the perspective of telling an entire population that I, as a hearing person, understands what it is that they need better than they themselves do. I find the second perspective to be extremely arrogant and it only serves to perpetrate the injustice. There is amazing potential in the individuals withinthe Deaf/deaf community and it is potential that is being wasted; not because of the deafness, but because of the ethnocentric attitudes of those that hearing people that attempt to interact with and set policy for the deaf/Deaf. I have a strong ethical and moral objection to that situation. If I don't want my son to be treated unjustly, or to be judged incorrectly on his talents and his capabilites simply becasue he is Deaf. then I cannot idly stand by and watch it happen to any member of the deaf/Deaf community. Not if I wish to consider myself an ehtical human being.

Why doI need confirmation fromthe deaf/Deaf community? You are assuming that I am looking for confirmation that I have raised my son in a manner that permits him to function fully to his capabilites. You are incorrect inthat assumption. I do not need confirmation of the job I have done as a parernt. I know for a fact that I have done an excellent job with that duty, as the results speak for themselves. I seek confirmation from those I continue to serve...it has gone beyond my son. Only through that confirmationthat I am understanding what it is they experience, and what it is they need, can I take action that will truly be of a benefit to them, and not simply a convienience for the hearing society. I am not deaf. Therefore, there is always the risk that I will be viewing a situation from hearing eyes. Only through feedback, both positive and negative, can I be certain that I am operating from the proper stand. I have to ask, and I have to listen. To refuse to do so, and to fail totake to heart what the deaf community tells me simply puts me inthe category of one more ethnocentric hearing person who believes that the goal is to change the deaf individual. I prefer to see the goal as a change in educational and societal situations so that the deaf/Deaf individual will be permitted to live and to achieve on their terms. They deserve nothing less.

I see the best way to accomplish that goal through education. Changes need to be made in the elementary stages in order that the deaf children of today receive sufficient education to be able to advocate for themselves and make themselves heard without my help.
 
Cloggy said:
......or is it an awkward suggestion?
Both - I guess
:topic:

I know
Click to expand...

No, cloggy, it is an attempt to look at the deaf persepctive without the cloudingof the issue that CI brings to the discussion. Deaf is deaf, whether assissted with technology or not. Technology is a wonderful thing, but it hasn't solved the core problems in education or the social problems created by those ethnocentric hearing professionals. If it had, the problems would not still exist. However, they do exist, and as the technological advances have not proven to be the answer, we need to look at the situation from another perspective.

And if it is your intention to attempt to divert yet another thread with insults and accusations, as well as clouding the issue with discussions regarding CIs, I would appreciate your takingthose attempts to another thread.
 
pek1 said:
Cloggy,

Second party isn't factored in. You're the mother of a deaf child, hence first party (and second [you] if so chosen), third party is someone who has no direct ties (family member, et al) to a situation. For example, you and husband have a disagreement and can't come to concensus. You go to a counselor who becomes third party. This is the part jillio plays, as outsider looking in (no pun inteded, although I know I'm gonna get called on that remark!).
Click to expand...

No, Pek, I am second party, as I not only have a Deaf son, but numerous deaf/Deaf friends and acquaintences that I relate to on a ppersonal basis. It is those personal ties that led tothe professional development. Through those personal ties, I say that I had the abiltiy and the talents to help make the changes I see as necessary from a personal perspective. So, I am very much second party, and even much closer in my association that the typical hearing parent of a deaf child who has no ties to the deaf community themselves. I am involved not just because I have a Deaf son. That is waht started it, to be sure. But I have moved even beyond that to personal association that has nothing to do with my son. It is not just a part of his life that I share in, it is a part of my life, as well. A very valuable part, I might add, because it has made me a better person who has developed a tolerance and a respect for all differences.
 
shel90 said:
Cloggy is not first party. He is a father of a deaf child same as Jillo who is a mother of a deaf child (in her case the child has grown up). That mkaes them 2nd party while we, as deaf individuals, r first party, right?
Click to expand...

That is correct.
 
pek1 said:
Okay . . . so, since you and jackie are both educated, as well as shel, perhaps there needs to be a consensus to agree to disagree and leave it as that? Research may show that both ways of educating work. Can this be a possibility?
Click to expand...
:gpost: I honestly believe that the reason so many methods to teach deaf children have evolved becuase no single method works for all. The Hands and Voices tag line says it all.
"What Works for your Child is what makes the Choice right"
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Also something that King Jordan said at the HLAA convention in his keynote speech rings truth.
"I believe that the decision on how to educate an individual deaf child should be based on the needs and characteristics of that child, not on a person's passion or passionate beliefs."
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I know that's a bit off topic but though it's worth a response. To answer the original question .. From my view you can't possibly see things from a deaf perspective if you are not deaf and have not experienced life as a deaf person. You can (and do) certianly try and sometimes you might even be able to. But to get the full deaf perspective I believe you must life your life as a deaf person. IMHO
 
rockdrummer said:
:gpost: I honestly believe that the reason so many methods to teach deaf children have evolved becuase no single method works for all. The Hands and Voices tag line says it all. Also something that King Jordan said at the HLAA convention in his keynote speech rings truth. I know that's a bit off topic but though it's worth a response. To answer the original question .. From my view you can't possibly see things from a deaf perspective if you are not deaf and have not experienced life as a deaf person. You can (and do) certianly try and sometimes you might even be able to. But to get the full deaf perspective I believe you must life your life as a deaf person. IMHO
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And that is exactly what I have said all along, rd. That I cannot know what it is to live as a deaf individual....however, by listening to what I am told by those whodo live with deafness every single day of their lives, I can gain as complete an understanding as is possible for any hearing person. I beleive my question was, "Do I seek to understand.....? And the deaf posters that have rsponded have agreed that I do.

Once again, the hearing perspective on this subject is not much use to me. I requested feedback fromthe deaf for a specific pirpose. It is the hearing who seem to think that I do not seek to understand the deaf perspective. That opinion has already been voiced. However, the deaf seem to think otherwise.
That is what I needed to know.
 
rockdrummer said:
:gpost: I honestly believe that the reason so many methods to teach deaf children have evolved becuase no single method works for all. The Hands and Voices tag line says it all. Also something that King Jordan said at the HLAA convention in his keynote speech rings truth. I know that's a bit off topic but though it's worth a response. To answer the original question .. From my view you can't possibly see things from a deaf perspective if you are not deaf and have not experienced life as a deaf person. You can (and do) certianly try and sometimes you might even be able to. But to get the full deaf perspective I believe you must life your life as a deaf person. IMHO
Click to expand...

Actually, the reason so many methods have evolved is because hearing professionalized teachers of the deaf have been led to believe that a system that worked well, and a system that the deaf say they need, could not possibly be as effective as one that is designed by hearing people.
 
jillio said:
Actually, the reason so many methods have evolved is because hearing professionalized teachers of the deaf have been led to believe that a system that worked well, and a system that the deaf say they need, could not possibly be as effective as one that is designed by hearing people.
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I dont believe that's true and have cited in another thread some of the reasons were to address deficiencies and also that some of the methods were created by deaf people. I don't believe its "us against them". What I do believe is that there are educators out there that are genuinely interested in the education of deaf people by whatever means are effective. I also believe those methods are measured, compared and contrasted against others in an attempt to find the most effective. Now that may not be true throughought the entire educational system however from where I sit I don't get the impression it's happening in our local school system.
 
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jillio said:
...........
And if it is your intention to attempt to divert yet another thread with insults and accusations, as well as clouding the issue with discussions regarding CIs, I would appreciate your takingthose attempts to another thread.
Click to expand...
Not at all.. sorry you feel that way.
 
rockdrummer said:
I dont believe that's true and have cited in another thread some of the reasons were to address deficiencies and also that some of the methods were created by deaf people. I don't believe its "us against them". What I do believe is that there are educators out there that are genuinely interested in the education of deaf people by whatever means are effective. I also believe those methods are measured, compared and contrasted against others in an attempt to find the most effective. Now that may not be true throughought the entire educational system however from where I sit I don't get the impression it's happening in our local school system.
Click to expand...

I agree, there are those educators out there who are really trying to make a difference. And the methods have been compared and contrasted in numerous studies. And what the preponderance of the evidence shows is that deafa children exposed to both sign and speech in an academic environment consistently perform at a higher level than those exposed to oral only.

I was speaking from an historical perspective, rd. Deaf education was revolutionized witht he advent of oralism, and that definately was amove toward professionalized hearing teachersof the deaf. The influx of hearing becoming responsible for deaf student's educational needs is what caused the push toward both oralism, and when strict oralism proved ineffective, the move to MCEs to compensate. All of these were the hearing perspective of what deaf students needed, and as a result, literacy rates have continued to plummet.
 
jillio said:
Becasue cloggy, I not only have a Deaf son, but am also personally and professionally involved with the deaf community. Because of my son, and because of my personal ties to the deaf community, I have seen untold injustices perpetrated against deaf individuals in the educational environment, in the work environment, and in the social environment. That fact spurred me to continue my education, and take it to a level whereby I would have the educational AND the personal experience necessary to be effective in taking the action necessary to begin changing some of those injustices.

It is the deaf/Deaf community that I work for, in effect. In order to take the action to make changes and rectify situations that are unjust for them, I must know what it is they feel, and why they feel that way. I must know what their needs are,and why those needs are valid. I must understand why one thing is more effective than another, and why that is so. The deaf community themselves are the source ofthat information. It is my intent and my goal to advocate for the deaf community fromthe perspective of the deaf community. To otherwise is to advocate from the hearing perspective, or the perspective of telling an entire population that I, as a hearing person, understands what it is that they need better than they themselves do. I find the second perspective to be extremely arrogant and it only serves to perpetrate the injustice. There is amazing potential in the individuals withinthe Deaf/deaf community and it is potential that is being wasted; not because of the deafness, but because of the ethnocentric attitudes of those that hearing people that attempt to interact with and set policy for the deaf/Deaf. I have a strong ethical and moral objection to that situation. If I don't want my son to be treated unjustly, or to be judged incorrectly on his talents and his capabilites simply becasue he is Deaf. then I cannot idly stand by and watch it happen to any member of the deaf/Deaf community. Not if I wish to consider myself an ehtical human being.

Why doI need confirmation fromthe deaf/Deaf community? You are assuming that I am looking for confirmation that I have raised my son in a manner that permits him to function fully to his capabilites. You are incorrect inthat assumption. I do not need confirmation of the job I have done as a parernt. I know for a fact that I have done an excellent job with that duty, as the results speak for themselves. I seek confirmation from those I continue to serve...it has gone beyond my son. Only through that confirmationthat I am understanding what it is they experience, and what it is they need, can I take action that will truly be of a benefit to them, and not simply a convienience for the hearing society. I am not deaf. Therefore, there is always the risk that I will be viewing a situation from hearing eyes. Only through feedback, both positive and negative, can I be certain that I am operating from the proper stand. I have to ask, and I have to listen. To refuse to do so, and to fail totake to heart what the deaf community tells me simply puts me inthe category of one more ethnocentric hearing person who believes that the goal is to change the deaf individual. I prefer to see the goal as a change in educational and societal situations so that the deaf/Deaf individual will be permitted to live and to achieve on their terms. They deserve nothing less.

I see the best way to accomplish that goal through education. Changes need to be made in the elementary stages in order that the deaf children of today receive sufficient education to be able to advocate for themselves and make themselves heard without my help.
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:gpost::gpost::gpost::gpost::gpost:

Jillio, I will do the same when I am a Social Worker for the deaf and hoh community.
 
Tousi said:
Yes, Jillio understands and continually seeks to understand. And Pek, for what it's worth adding to your evolving (lol) opinions, did you know that Jillio has a deaf son?
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:ty: Thanks, Tousi! I think that fact must have escaped him.:giggle:
 
pek1 said:
Someday, when we have more deaf/hoh people in places of authority in government and education and the like, you will learn that we will not take things sitting on our hands.
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I am praying for that day to come.
 
jillio said:
Good for you, Sue!
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Ditto on that too. Spekaing of your question, I was reminded of myself with the "hearing" view...

Before taking my studies in Deaf education, Linguistics, and language acquisition, I really saw things from a hearing perspective about deaf education. I used to think that ASL would interfere with speech development, that deaf schools were doing bad jobs in educating deaf children as opposed to public schools, that ASL prevents deaf children from being able to read and write, and most of all..thought being oral and being totally assimilated in the hearing world was better than being non-oral and the Deaf community. Going to Gallaudet, my classes, socializing with people from the Deaf community, and working with deaf children at the deaf school and the public schools really changed all those old views completely. It seemed like I was under a spell all those years about deafness and ASL and that spell was completely shattered after my years at Gallaudet.

So, sometimes even dhh people have hearing perspectives...before the spell was broken, I didn't even know nor recognize my needs as a deaf person so if u had asked me that question 10 years ago, u bet u probably would get a completely different answer. During those times, I was always working my hardest to be a "hearing" person and denied my deafness.Just wanted to add this food for thought because like u, I had to go thru all these life changing steps to take before I could really understand my own needs and limitations despite being deaf all my life.
 
shel90 said:
Ditto on that too. Spekaing of your question, I was reminded of myself with the "hearing" view...

Before taking my studies in Deaf education, Linguistics, and language acquisition, I really saw things from a hearing perspective about deaf education. I used to think that ASL would interfere with speech development, that deaf schools were doing bad jobs in educating deaf children as opposed to public schools, that ASL prevents deaf children from being able to read and write, and most of all..thought being oral and being totally assimilated in the hearing world was better than being non-oral and the Deaf community. Going to Gallaudet, my classes, socializing with people from the Deaf community, and working with deaf children at the deaf school and the public schools really changed all those old views completely. It seemed like I was under a spell all those years about deafness and ASL and that spell was completely shattered after my years at Gallaudet.

So, sometimes even dhh people have hearing perspectives...before the spell was broken, I didn't even know nor recognize my needs as a deaf person so if u had asked me that question 10 years ago, u bet u probably would get a completely different answer. During those times, I was always working my hardest to be a "hearing" person and denied my deafness.Just wanted to add this food for thought because like u, I had to go thru all these life changing steps to take before I could really understand my own needs and limitations despite being deaf all my life.
Click to expand...

Very well put, shel. Being able to take another perspective is a growth process. In order to do that, one must open themselves to new experiences and knowlege without bias. Sometimes it is necessary to understand what one doesn't know before one can actually learn. Or what one thinks one knows is only part of the picture.
 
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