District files appeal against deaf student

[jillio]

Not everyone has access to libraries and professional journals. Some people are parents at home with their children, or working.
YOu might have the luxury of a universaty library, but not everyone reading along here.....
You could email the article without problems... but you would rather accuse people of being lazy and incompetent....


And if the article is so easy to find and one does not need to pay for it, why not put a link to it...

You're great at showing off how much you read, where you find your stuff and copying APA formats; sharing information is not developed yet with you. Must be some competition going on around you...

For me, I can connect to the internet at home. That's a long way from sitting on some high-speed university database with free access to any article you want...
Thanks for sharing .... (and not just with me...)

I have posted the citation. Not everyone has access to a university library, but everyone does have access to a public library. The citation includes not only journal, but the volume #, the issue, and the page numbers. That is sufficent. Would you like me to refer you back to your recent posts where yourefused toprovide even that amount of information that would allow someone to access the articles you were using as reference?

And, you have spent a great deal of time posting personal insults since I did as you requested and supported my arguments with research. Now it is time for you do to the same, or bow out gracefully. You have already managed to prove that you have nothing on which to stand. You cite research, I will use your citation to access the articles, or the books, or whatever you choose to cite, and then I will get back with you. Until you are able to do that, my discussion with you is over.

 

[jillio]

Same with my mom and she thought I was happy and well adjusted..boy did I fool her and MYSELF too. Many of my deaf friends admitted that their parents only knew a small part of what was really going on with them. Maybe your children tell u everything but other people's children that u are teaching may not tell their parents everything from A to Z.

Life experience has taught me that NO child tells a parent EVERYTHING. It is the nature of the parent/child relationship. Clinical experience inthe counseling field has confirmed that. You'd be amazed at after some time in family and group therapy, a deaf child will admit to feelings that the parent had no idea the child had.

 

[jillio]

\
Did u see the other threads about deaf schools in danger of closing? Yes, the children's needs come first and one of those needs is having day to day contact with deaf adult role models. It is said that it is very important that inner city black children have male teachers or even better yet, if they were black for role models. Deaf children need that too but with more and more children being implanted and the belief that signing will interfere with the development of spoken language (which is a myth if the child can hear pretty well with a CI..I have seen many cases) so widespread then parents will believe that and wouldnt want any chances to interfere with their children's spoken language development so the demand for a signing environment will go down causing many deaf people to lose their jobs. Pretty sad,

***nodding agreement***

 

[jillio]

Many deaf people want BOTH...yes, many who were not exposed to oral language wish they can talk same with those who were not exposed to sign language. That's why I am advocated for the BiBi approach cuz it offers both so nobody gets denied anything. U keep denying many children sign language cuz u want them to focus on oral language only at first while we are not denying children spoken language.

That is such a simple concept, I really don't understand why they can't seem to understand it. They are the ones that are limiting linguistic exposure.

 

[jillio]

I used to believe that signing would impede the development of oral language until I met many deaf or hoh people (without CIs) who were first exposed to signing first and then took speech classes at the deaf schools they attended who have pretty good speech skills. That changed my view plus the research I studied during my grad school showing the same too.

And now, the most current research shows that the highest performing group of deaf children with CIs are those that are in an academic placement that utilizes both sign and speech.

 

[jillio]

http://www.alldeaf.com/deaf-news/42413-district-files-appeal-against-deaf-student-35.html#post819217

Sorry I do need to remember that some people take things very literally, my experience with a co worker was he had a more difficult time dealing with things not exactly the way they seem, or more abstract. He is an intelligent man but does have problems with abstract thinking.

When you say it's (to paraphrase) ironic that oral programs will put deaf teachers out of a job simply because they can't talk. You seem to be saying parents should pick the method in which they'd raise their child simply because of the impact it might have on those working in deaf education who are deaf. You work in a deaf school which 'could' close because to many deaf students might be put in oral programs so you could lose your job. (theoretically) Thus my question. And yes I do see the part where you say lose their job just because they don't speak. But if a deaf school closes because not enough students are enrolled because they all went to oral programs then even those staff who are deaf and speak would lose their jobs. My guess is even they (you, as one of those who speak) would have problems getting a job in education in a 'normal' school. Would it be impossible no but more difficult then when you got the job in your current school.

I really don't think that will happen. One size does not fit all in education, espeically education of a child who can't hear. Parents and staff do need to remember what the I in IEP stands for. sigh.

Dificulty with abstractions is a hallmark symptom of language deprivation. Because language has never been internalized, one cannot use it with native fluency, but only in the most concrete sense.

 

[jag]

Dificulty with abstractions is a hallmark symptom of language deprivation. Because language has never been internalized, one cannot use it with native fluency, but only in the most concrete sense.

Jillio, the man I mentioned grew up using only ASL. He went to the deaf school. He told me that he lost his hearing as an infant, before his 1st birthday, something about a high fever and he couldn't hear after that. I have no idea exactly when he began school at the academy tho. which could mean his deafness was not immdiately noticed and he lost some time there. Since he graduated from HS in the mid 90's that would have put him losing his hearing back in the late 70's or earl 80's, a time when they still were not sending the kids home every weekend and holiday. The support for EI(home based) at that time probably not that great since it was still a pretty new concept. I would 'assume' that he was placed fairly early because that's what they seemed to do at that time. But I admit I really am not sure.

 

[Cloggy]

And in the meantime, we are experimenting on deaf kids.

Experimenting.....
Haven't noticed.
I have noticed sound technology that is improved upon continously. Getting better and better all the time.
For the deaf who want it , it's there. For those who don't like it, no worries.
And for the parents of deaf children, another option for their child..

But experimenting, no, haven't seen it....

 

[Cloggy]

....... U keep denying many children sign language cuz u want them to focus on oral language only at first while we are not denying children spoken language.

You know... when you make a statement like that, and nobody says it's incorrect.... that doesn't make it true..

So, I'll say it.....
Not true,
Focus might be on oral, until a certain age, that's a parents decision. That doesn't mean sign is denied. When language is established, sign can be started, or when language is not developing, sign can be used.

I have never heared anyone say on this messageboard that "Sign language is Denied" except by you..... as wrong interpretation and/or a false argument.

When oral works for the child.... why spend time on sign ??
Perhaps, you ARE denying the child speech ?? (just wondering..)

 

[Cloggy]

I have posted the citation. Not everyone has access to a university library, but everyone does have access to a public library. The citation includes not only journal, but the volume #, the issue, and the page numbers. That is sufficent.

I thought so to, actually, just the title is enough, isn't it..
Anyway, when I provide the the whole info you cannot find it , and still it's my fault (Have a look here...)... funny how that works in your bubble...

Would you like me to refer you back to your recent posts where yourefused toprovide even that amount of information that would allow someone to access the articles you were using as reference?

Yes, please refer me back to any of such an incident...

And, you have spent a great deal of time posting personal insults since I did as you requested and supported my arguments with research.

No you haven't. You posted part of an article, assuming that everyone has (access) to it...

Now it is time for you do to the same, or bow out gracefully. You have already managed to prove that you have nothing on which to stand. You cite research, I will use your citation to access the articles, or the books, or whatever you choose to cite, and then I will get back with you. Until you are able to do that, my discussion with you is over.

"Nothing on which to stand".... Well, if you call a child, that learned sign, then learned to hear, learned to listen, learned to talk call "nothing".... then you are right.
For me and other persons having personal experiences with these kind of children, it's a lot more than nothing.

It's a pity you only see children that do not do well. Assuming that this is the norm....

You are confusing posting articles that are interesting with posting arguments to support a position.

Still, looking forward to some information that we all can read...

 

[shel90]

You know... when you make a statement like that, and nobody says it's incorrect.... that doesn't make it true..

So, I'll say it.....
Not true,
Focus might be on oral, until a certain age, that's a parents decision. That doesn't mean sign is denied. When language is established, sign can be started, or when language is not developing, sign can be used.

I have never heared anyone say on this messageboard that "Sign language is Denied" except by you..... as wrong interpretation and/or a false argument.

When oral works for the child.... why spend time on sign ??
Perhaps, you ARE denying the child speech ?? (just wondering..)

I was directing this comment to another AD member who does not believe in introducing sign to children who have been implanted unless they show signs of strugggling with oral language. This person's words were "the focus should be on oral language first." I disagree with that and it was directed to that person, not u.

How am I denying speech to the children if I am advocating for both oral and sign? U explain it to me cuz I don't see it.

 

[shel90]

That is what I find the key to how a successful a child is, is parent involvement no matter what type of child, not matter what type of program.

I can tell you fom the short years of teaching experience I have that within the first week of school before I meet the parents I can tell you what type of parents they are.

Oh really? I do not do that at my job, I dont make any judgements or assumptions until I meet the parents but even after one meeting I still dont know enough to make judgements.

Yes, I get frustrated at the behaviors of the parents such as not learning to sign or not giving money for field trips but I dont make judgements about what kind of parents are they cuz I am not at their house to see what they are doing so how should I know? How do u know?

 

[Cloggy]

I was directing this comment to another AD member who does not believe in introducing sign to children who have been implanted unless they show signs of strugggling with oral language. This person's words were "the focus should be on oral language first." I disagree with that and it was directed to that person, not u.
..............

Just noticed how you translate "...the focus should be on oral language first... " to " keep denying many children sign language ".....

To me there's quite a difference....

 

[jillio]

Jillio, the man I mentioned grew up using only ASL. He went to the deaf school. He told me that he lost his hearing as an infant, before his 1st birthday, something about a high fever and he couldn't hear after that. I have no idea exactly when he began school at the academy tho. which could mean his deafness was not immdiately noticed and he lost some time there. Since he graduated from HS in the mid 90's that would have put him losing his hearing back in the late 70's or earl 80's, a time when they still were not sending the kids home every weekend and holiday. The support for EI(home based) at that time probably not that great since it was still a pretty new concept. I would 'assume' that he was placed fairly early because that's what they seemed to do at that time. But I admit I really am not sure.

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. There are a lot of variables there. Inthe late 70's and early 80's the average age of diagnosis for prelingually deaf children was 2.5 years. That a relatively late diagnosis, and can cause problems with languge inand of itself. Most assistance durig that time was oral early intervention programs, and that, agian caused difficulties for this age cohort. When you say he grew up with ASL only, were his parents deaf, as well? Or perhaps native signers?

 

[shel90]

Just noticed how you translate "...the focus should be on oral language first... " to " keep denying many children sign language ".....

To me there's quite a difference....

This person admitted that by introducing sign language to children will interfere with their ability to learn spoken language so isnt that denying them sign language? I think if u go back to and read all the threads, u would find it...I am not talking about u..talking to that person.

 

[jillio]

This person admitted that by introducing sign language to children will interfere with their ability to learn spoken language so isnt that denying them sign language? I think if u go back to and read all the threads, u would find it...I am not talking about u..talking to that person.

O course it means that shel. The person you are talking about has admitted in numerous posts that a child should not be introduced to sign language until they have been in an oral environment for at least 2 years and then, if they fail to develop language skills, they can start to learn sign.

 

[jag]

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. There are a lot of variables there. Inthe late 70's and early 80's the average age of diagnosis for prelingually deaf children was 2.5 years. That a relatively late diagnosis, and can cause problems with languge inand of itself. Most assistance durig that time was oral early intervention programs, and that, agian caused difficulties for this age cohort. When you say he grew up with ASL only, were his parents deaf, as well? Or perhaps native signers?

Well he only uses ASL, he does not seem to be able to lipread as I tried, since my finger spelling is slow I figured he could read my lips (since I read lips) but he didn't seem to be able to. His family is not deaf. i'm not sure exactly how the deaf education for toddlers was done around here back then, now teachers of the deaf/hoh are included in the EI teams and help families communicate with sign. But he was able to tell me that his deafness occured before age 1 so I would assume that his behavior changed alot after the illness and his deafness was diagnosed fairly soon after it happened.

 

[sculleywr]

I just posted the opening post at a mainly hearing debate website. Here is the link:

District Files appeal against Deaf Student - Volconvo Debate Forums

Check it out and join in if you guys want. We need more people from the Deaf community representing, since I am the only person in it on that site that I know of and I am only a terp-in-training. Anyone willing to help may join in if they like.

 

[jillio]

I just posted the opening post at a mainly hearing debate website. Here is the link:

District Files appeal against Deaf Student - Volconvo Debate Forums

Check it out and join in if you guys want. We need more people from the Deaf community representing, since I am the only person in it on that site that I know of and I am only a terp-in-training. Anyone willing to help may join in if they like.

Well, I can't be sure,either, but chances are probably pretty good that his first exposure to ASL would have been after he entered the deaf school, judging from the time period. EI during that time period mostly focused on oral methods.

 

[deafdyke]

When oral works for the child.... why spend time on sign ??

So they can function both WITH and WITHOUT hearing aids/CI/hearing technology.
So that if they run into oral only downsides, they can take advantage of the good parts of the deaf world.
Cloggy, I am an oral sucess. I can hear and speak pretty well. My language is very advanced. I'll never forget getting a word on the verbal section of an IQ test (when being evaluated for IEP) that NOBODY ELSE had ever gotten.
Even with the fact that I am a hardcore English savant, I STILL experianced MAJOR downsides with oral only and mainstreaming.
You have NO idea what its like to be thought of as retarded b/c your voice sounds funny, you have NO idea how fucking frustrating it is to have to repeat yourself constantly or have to say "never mind" when you don't quite "get" something someone said. You have NO idea what its like to havea circumstiszed social life, you have no idea what its like to feel like you're the only person in the world who has to wear hearing aids, you have NO idea how embarassing it is to have someone constantly correct your speech (Pygmalion anyone? "the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain?") Do you know how fucking boring speech is? You just don't know. You're still so enamoured by the fact that Lotte can be somewhat oral..........and that's a good thing. Just be prepared for the possible downsides. Not all oral sucesses are honor roll students.

To me there's quite a difference....

Granted Jackie isn't being old school oralist about this, but SHE is being really audist about oral speech. Speech is a great skill...........BUT why should it be the be all and end all of a dhh kids' life?