District files appeal against deaf student

[shel90]

Shel, it is not the same having friends with implants as raising children with implants. As parents we are there every step of the way. We sit with our kids when they go to the implant centers. We sit in IEPs. We talk to the teachers. We fight for our children's rights. And we work with our children every single day. There is no way you can compare what we as parents do with our children that have implants.

Same with my mom and she thought I was happy and well adjusted..boy did I fool her and MYSELF too. Many of my deaf friends admitted that their parents only knew a small part of what was really going on with them. Maybe your children tell u everything but other people's children that u are teaching may not tell their parents everything from A to Z.

 

[shel90]

I think it can go both ways. Several of my daughter's friends have told me that they wish their parents were like me and wished they could talk. I think as parents we really have to listen to our children. I know that my children and I talk about this all the time.

Many deaf people want BOTH...yes, many who were not exposed to oral language wish they can talk same with those who were not exposed to sign language. That's why I am advocated for the BiBi approach cuz it offers both so nobody gets denied anything. U keep denying many children sign language cuz u want them to focus on oral language only at first while we are not denying children spoken language.

 

[SJCSue]

When I read that post, I immediately thought lab rats. Why do we deaf people are put under experimental approaches in the education setting while hearing people arent. I really think that is very unfair. We have rights too. Geez!

 

[shel90]

As Jillo and you have stated before aren't we suppose to focus on what the kids need not if us as educators need jobs. It will be my job that will be eliminated first. I am really OK with this because I am sure that I will find another job elsewhere. Well actually by the time this happens I will be a cert AVT so I am already lining up my next job.

Why oral language only because we need to focus on the implant first. If a parent is seeking an implant then they focus on developing oral language. Once a child has a strong oral base then I think adding signing like at the age my children did is a great tool for them.

Shel I really do not think you will ever be out of a job. An implant is not for everyone. It is a parent personal choice if they want their child to get implant. There will still be many parents that choose the signing path, which is great for them.

\
Did u see the other threads about deaf schools in danger of closing? Yes, the children's needs come first and one of those needs is having day to day contact with deaf adult role models. It is said that it is very important that inner city black children have male teachers or even better yet, if they were black for role models. Deaf children need that too but with more and more children being implanted and the belief that signing will interfere with the development of spoken language (which is a myth if the child can hear pretty well with a CI..I have seen many cases) so widespread then parents will believe that and wouldnt want any chances to interfere with their children's spoken language development so the demand for a signing environment will go down causing many deaf people to lose their jobs. Pretty sad,

 

[shel90]

Exactly. The focus needs to be on language acquisition, not the implant. The intention of the implant is to provide increased auditory input. It is incorrect to assume that simply becasue increased auditory input has been achieved, oral language will increase as a result. As was stated in research I posted in this thread. It wa also found that the CI users who comapred most favorably to hearing controls were those who had been given sign and speech skills, and were included in an academic environment that utilized both. In addition, the premise of sign impeding the development of oral language was disproven years ago.

I used to believe that signing would impede the development of oral language until I met many deaf or hoh people (without CIs) who were first exposed to signing first and then took speech classes at the deaf schools they attended who have pretty good speech skills. That changed my view plus the research I studied during my grad school showing the same too.

 

[shel90]

QUOTshel90;818924[]E=The CI has nothing to do with it...deaf children with HAs, mild hearing losses, CIs or nothing are still being placed in oral only programs in which they struggle before finally they are placed in a signing environment but by then it is almost too late for most of them due to passing the critical years of language development. .

Oh NO!! You mean myself and my daughter should have been in classes at the deaf school because our formative years included hearing loss in the mild/mod area? No Shel don't think so. Each child is indivdual. All of us deaf/Deaf/ hoh people are individuals. Parents vary, staff vary and neither my daughter or I feel deprived because we were raised in an 'oral' enviroment. Were there challenges to living with a mod/severe hearing loss, sure and for myself they were actually more then for my daughter since I never did do very well with HA's.

I'm happy you want to advocate for the children, I agree that both options should be used from birth and after implantation of a CI, but then people like you do need to realize that those children using both will choose which to use as their 'base' language. Many like Cloggy's Lotte choose to use verbal communication, and that is her choice. I do believe that MSAD has developed a program or was working on one for the kids who use the CI, to give them both options. So even deaf schools are having to adapt to kids who can hear with their implants. That is good.[/QUOTE]

I didnt say anything about deaf schools..just in a signing environment. I am realistic..I know not all people live close to Deaf schools.

 

[shel90]

QUOTshel90;818924[]E=The CI has nothing to do with it...deaf children with HAs, mild hearing losses, CIs or nothing are still being placed in oral only programs in which they struggle before finally they are placed in a signing environment but by then it is almost too late for most of them due to passing the critical years of language development. .

Oh NO!! You mean myself and my daughter should have been in classes at the deaf school because our formative years included hearing loss in the mild/mod area? No Shel don't think so. Each child is indivdual. All of us deaf/Deaf/ hoh people are individuals. Parents vary, staff vary and neither my daughter or I feel deprived because we were raised in an 'oral' enviroment. Were there challenges to living with a mod/severe hearing loss, sure and for myself they were actually more then for my daughter since I never did do very well with HA's.

I'm happy you want to advocate for the children, I agree that both options should be used from birth and after implantation of a CI, but then people like you do need to realize that those children using both will choose which to use as their 'base' language. Many like Cloggy's Lotte choose to use verbal communication, and that is her choice. I do believe that MSAD has developed a program or was working on one for the kids who use the CI, to give them both options. So even deaf schools are having to adapt to kids who can hear with their implants. That is good.[/QUOTE]

Also, I wanted to mention that my work is doing the same thing which is fine. Whatever works as long as the child is not put at risk for language deprivation and can be active learners instead of passive learners.

 

[shel90]

You expect families with deaf children to make decisions based on your ability to get a job?

Did I say that?

 

[shel90]

Jackie, u said this..

You are wroong I have never said that signing is a crutch, I have said that if my kids are able to be oral they will have more opportunities in life. I completely undestand and agree that ASL is a complete language on its own. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Can u pls elaborate how by being oral, kids will have more opportunities in life?


I dont see the difference..I see deaf signers without oral skills and deaf people with oral skills having the same opportunities if they have the desire and willingness to grab those opportunities.

Many of my deaf friends who have no oral skills are:

seasoned travelers without the need of assistance.

hold jobs..heck some of the are engineers working at IBM

interact with hearing people but in a different way..nothing wrong with that

can watch TV, talk on the phone (VP or relay), can get on the Internet


so what opportunities are u talking about that oral deaf people will have that non-oral deaf people dont have?

 

[shel90]

That is what I find the key to how a successful a child is, is parent involvement no matter what type of child, not matter what type of program.

I can tell you fom the short years of teaching experience I have that within the first week of school before I meet the parents I can tell you what type of parents they are.

Ok..my mom was very involved in my and my brother's education so can u explain why my brother couldnt pick up on spoken language during the first 5 years of his life causing him to be delayed in language?

 

[shel90]

jag,

I was in Sioux Falls, SD yesterday and arrived back this morning at 3:30 so I was unable to see them in church, as I was exhausted. I have a foster cousin that tried teaching, but in his student teaching, decided that after spending four years to become a teacher, not to become one.

My mother was supportive and fought for me, but what can she do since she didn't have a driver's license at the time and her own family putting her down about everything, not only during her growing up years, but into adulthood as well? She wanted me to attend MSAD, but my dad said, "costs money" as if it cost an arm and a leg. As long as he had money for deer hunting, that's all that mattered. He even told my mom that if she hadn't gone back to work when she did (stayed at home for 15 years), we would have lost everything. Now that she runs the checkbook (or did before her heart attack), he finally realized (after almost 50 years of marriage) she was the one who should have handled the money to begin with. He told her nothing and would never even discuss anything related to the bills with her or what was in the bank.

As for this discussion, jag, I am still very concerned that deaf and hoh kids (and adults) are STILL put on the back burner and these sports programs and all that crap comes before us. I've had dreams of what it's going to be like when I become an attorney and I can assure you, all of us will put people like Jackie out of work and barred from employment anywhere until they comply. I won't hesitate to represent cases that will jam the courts and force a lot of cases into litigation . . . basically, creating such a backlog that these schools will start screaming 'enough' and help will be there "card blanche." Yes, I believe in equal rights, but, what I'm seeing is that these people with sports teams and universities with blank checks for sports think, "just as long as we're covered, we don't give a damn about anything or anyone else." These people, under my system enacted into law, will be required to go through sensitivity training, just like one does for sexual harrassment now in the workplace and all that money will be distributed equally. If one person suffers without help, we all suffer.

I'm totally in favor of jamming and creating backlog so blank checks will appear for deaf and hoh kids/adults. They can get the help they need right now, not whenever. "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND" will also include deaf/hoh kids, regardless of the parents income or social status. Unlike what it is today.

If you're a Republican, you won't like me. I don't want you to. Just hand over the money for deaf and hoh kids/adults to get us help we need so we can compete (with you) on a level playing field. I promise I won't let you win!

 

[jag]

Did I say that?

http://www.alldeaf.com/deaf-news/42413-district-files-appeal-against-deaf-student-35.html#post819217

Sorry I do need to remember that some people take things very literally, my experience with a co worker was he had a more difficult time dealing with things not exactly the way they seem, or more abstract. He is an intelligent man but does have problems with abstract thinking.

When you say it's (to paraphrase) ironic that oral programs will put deaf teachers out of a job simply because they can't talk. You seem to be saying parents should pick the method in which they'd raise their child simply because of the impact it might have on those working in deaf education who are deaf. You work in a deaf school which 'could' close because to many deaf students might be put in oral programs so you could lose your job. (theoretically) Thus my question. And yes I do see the part where you say lose their job just because they don't speak. But if a deaf school closes because not enough students are enrolled because they all went to oral programs then even those staff who are deaf and speak would lose their jobs. My guess is even they (you, as one of those who speak) would have problems getting a job in education in a 'normal' school. Would it be impossible no but more difficult then when you got the job in your current school.

I really don't think that will happen. One size does not fit all in education, espeically education of a child who can't hear. Parents and staff do need to remember what the I in IEP stands for. sigh.

 

[pek1]

Interesting take. I was told by an older man who's daughter with DS is now oh she must be somewhere over 30 that when congress passed the law in 1975 they 'promised' the states that they'd fund it up to 40% or something like that. In reality the democrat congresses never provided state funding over 5% I think he said. (if i wasn't on slow dial up actual reseach would be faster and easier, lol) It wasn't until like 1995 or so that the funding to states was increased (under a republican congress with a democrat president) funding is still well below the 40% promised all those years ago.
We now have a democrat legislature and they even control the senate, so how much have they talked about funding for sped? Are they going to try to get closer to that 40%?


Now having said that, if i have time I'll see if I can find the article or whatever that discussed funding. We should all know by now that a president proposes and congress decides. Sure the president can ask for things but congress controls the purse strings, and ALL those egotistical people want their name on as many buildings or whatever as they can get or so it seems. We have the bridge for a few people in Alaska (that I believe was a republican proposal, but is now not going through) the big dig that leaks alot from what i've read (a democrat proposal) etc etc. Everyone says that No child left behind is all Bush's bill. Not really, he stated what he would like to have in it, then compromised with TK and others to get part of what he wanted. Be relistic none of them are really working for us.

Yeah, that I do know. Maybe we could get shel to run for a senate seat in her state, then when the next presidential cycle goes through, plug her to be the candidate and make sure she wins all the elections, primaries, etc.

On another note (off topic) regarding Alaska, there had been talk for quite a number of years to move the capitol to Houston or somewhere in that vicinity, as my parents had purchased land because of it. They have since sold the land, but the capitol is still in Juneau.

 

[jillio]

Deafsyke you need to get your story straight. I know that ASL is a complete language base. I also know that if I would have exposed my children to sign language when they were toddlers they would not have developed such a strong oral base. I also know that I am glad my children have learned some sign language this has helped to exposed them to more deaf people. And if I had to do everything over again, the only thing I would change is not having my daughter diagnosis at a younger age.

As oral parents we heard how mean the Deaf community can be to us oral families and I was scared to expose my children to that hatred but I am so happy to say that the Deaf people we have met are very accepting of my children and our way of life. The only hatred that I have come across has been on this site.

Research finds exactly the opposite...that signed communication does not impede the development of oral language skills. Infact, it has been found that signed language actually facillitates the learning of oral language.

You stated that oral language must be focused on first. I've asked this before, but have yet to receive ananswer. Why? Why must oral language be focused on first?

 

[jillio]

You expect families with deaf children to make decisions based on your ability to get a job?

As those deaf children will one day be adults, I would thinkthat employment opportunites for the deaf would be a concern for all parents of deaf children.

 

[jillio]

I am (or was) 'hoh'. I was never in any mainstream programs since I was just in my local school. (neither was my hoh daughter) My guess is you probably got even more out of your HA's then I did since you think you did so well with them. Not me. I CAN through experience again repeat that what comes through from a CI is nothing like what you get from a HA. I function much better as hoh with my CI (and I am still under 90% in sentence recognition) then I ever functioned with a HA. Just my expericence. The two are completely different technologies and both have thier place.

BTW, if you are really reading what Jackie is writing, she is a teacher in an ECSE program or an EI program. She says that she does prod parents toward sign language withing a year and never more then two of working with thier child if that child is not making progress.

And that is 2 years of lost opportunity for language acquisition for these kids. This wouldn't happen if these kids were being exposed to both.

While I myself see nothing wrong with using both from the beginning, it does seem that when the child actually is the one who chose method (and many parents here started with signs) by dropping the sign certain people refuse to believe that it was the childs choice.

No one is the same, neither my daughter nor myself regret going to our local schools as one of the normal population, we fit in just fine. Many of these kids coming up will do just fine, some will not. I do not need you to continue to lamant about how all kids with HA's or CI's need this that or the other. And how you and other teachers of the deaf/hoh have all the right answers. All are individuals.

Parental involvement can make a hugh difference in whatever method they choose for their child.

Parental involvement can and does make a difference for any child...hearing, hoh, or deaf. But it is not the single most influential variable. The parent can be involved, but the parent cannot be the child. Well, in most cases, anyway. There are times that the parent appears to be more immature than the child, but that's another situation).

 

[jillio]

Jillo you did say "extremely limited" in my exposure to other methods but your exact words were, "And personally, I agree with Pek. Jackie experience is extremely limited, as she herself has admitted that she has not been exposed to any method of education other than oral."

This is what you said that I have not been exposed to any other methods except for oral. That is not correct. You said that I admitted to not being exposed to other methods, I have never said. I have said that I am not an expert in other methods.

I agree that I am not verse enough in other methods but I have been exposed to other methods and tell parents to seek out information of these other methods from people who are expert in them.

I never metion before but I also have knowledge on CUED because one of the teachers I went through my master's program had a CUED speech interpeter. I also have a cousin who was in a CUED speech program for a short time.

Jackie, you also stated that you had only 40 hours observation, and no student teaching experience, in any program other than oral. Given the time spent observing and participating in various methods that certified teachers for the deaf are supposed to complete prior to even taking exams, that is minimal enough exposure to be considered no exposure. Especially since this exposure occourred several years ago during your training at John Tracy Clinic. John Tracy Clinic is one of the most infamous oral institutions in the nation.

And once again, you may have some slight second hand knowledge of CS based on what you have just said, but you have no real experience with it.

 

[jillio]

I am in no way discounting this parent's frustration and pain, nor am I pointing fingers or laying blame. But I would like to point out that this situation is no different from the situation that occurs on a daily basis within the educational system. Parnets agree to oral educational placement on the mistaken belief that it will provide their child with a better educaiton and more opportunity to integrate into the oral world. It has exactly the opposite effect, and in actuality, the child is deprived of a complete education an d is handicapped far more than deafness is responsible for. Opportunity is denied, not extended in these situations. And this is the main reason that shel, dd, and many other posters to this forum object so strongly to a strictly oral philosophy. It is truly a shame that our deaf students continue to go through these situations, and are continuing to be denied adequate education. What is even more of a shame is that we can hear these stories, and still be so ethnocentric and narrow minded that we do not learn from them and continue to make the same mistakes over and over.

This is post #96 but I am not sure how this post states that I admitted to not having an exposure to other methods besides oral. This is a post you posted not me.

If you will go back and check, you will see that I was replying to a post of yours. I copied it into my reply.

 

[jillio]

That is what I find the key to how a successful a child is, is parent involvement no matter what type of child, not matter what type of program.

I can tell you fom the short years of teaching experience I have that within the first week of school before I meet the parents I can tell you what type of parents they are.

Wow! You make snap judgements like that based on no meeting with the parents? That is soooooooo wrong!
But typical.

 

[jillio]

My daughter would be the perfect candidante for CART, because she is reading close to grade level and once she is able to read everything doing on in class then she will be able to participate.

Could you explain to me how it will facilitate her participation, please?