District files appeal against deaf student

[shel90]

So they can function both WITH and WITHOUT hearing aids/CI/hearing technology.
So that if they run into oral only downsides, they can take advantage of the good parts of the deaf world.
Cloggy, I am an oral sucess. I can hear and speak pretty well. My language is very advanced. I'll never forget getting a word on the verbal section of an IQ test (when being evaluated for IEP) that NOBODY ELSE had ever gotten.
Even with the fact that I am a hardcore English savant, I STILL experianced MAJOR downsides with oral only and mainstreaming.
You have NO idea what its like to be thought of as retarded b/c your voice sounds funny, you have NO idea how fucking frustrating it is to have to repeat yourself constantly or have to say "never mind" when you don't quite "get" something someone said. You have NO idea what its like to havea circumstiszed social life, you have no idea what its like to feel like you're the only person in the world who has to wear hearing aids, you have NO idea how embarassing it is to have someone constantly correct your speech (Pygmalion anyone? "the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain?") Do you know how fucking boring speech is? You just don't know. You're still so enamoured by the fact that Lotte can be somewhat oral..........and that's a good thing. Just be prepared for the possible downsides. Not all oral sucesses are honor roll students.


Granted Jackie isn't being old school oralist about this, but SHE is being really audist about oral speech. Speech is a great skill...........BUT why should it be the be all and end all of a dhh kids' life?

I hate those "Never mind" or "I will tell u later" comments. It used to make me want to turn into a pycho and go crzy on those who have disregarded me with those comments. It is the feeling of not being worthy of anyone's attention (iam speaking as a kid growing up and into my early adulthood).

Now, when people say that to me, it doesn't bother me cuz I have my friends and co workers in the signing community who won't say these kinds of things to me so those people who make those comments to me are not important to me anymore. Apparently I am not important to them so they are no longer important to me like they were before.

Point is, it really does suck to have that said to u constantly. Makes a person feel like nobody wants anything to do with that person. It is hard on a child when the child feels like that.

Yea, hearing people really don't know what it is like...just like we don't know what it is like to be hearing. Simple as that.

 

[pek1]

Where's Jackie everyone? She said she was going to call me last night?

 

[rockdrummer]

maybe she is taking a break from it all.

 

[Cloggy]

So they can function both WITH and WITHOUT hearing aids/CI/hearing technology.
So that if they run into oral only downsides, they can take advantage of the good parts of the deaf world.

When I said "When oral works for the child.... why spend time on sign ??" I had Lotte in mind. My mistake.
For Lotte, she is learning two languages simultanously, so for us, sign would be a third. Plus, sign would then be something used regurarly, which would be involvement in deaf society. Where I live, that's not an option.

Do you know how fucking boring speech is? You just don't know.

How can you say that?? To you it might be. The rest of the world has a different opinion... looking at all the radio programs, discussions, etc. Speech is far from boring... (Ask any female that can hear..) I can imagine that learning to speak without audial feedback is tedious and in the end boring. And you claiming you're a succes, and claiming that speech is fucking boring.. it must be even worse for deaf people (that cannot hear) that are not succesfull.

So, sorry about my personal view.
The more tools a child has the better, as long as there's a good chance of learning it. Learning 4 tools a little bit wis probably not very effective..

 

[shel90]

When I said "When oral works for the child.... why spend time on sign ??" I had Lotte in mind. My mistake.
For Lotte, she is learning two languages simultanously, so for us, sign would be a third. Plus, sign would then be something used regurarly, which would be involvement in deaf society. Where I live, that's not an option.


How can you say that?? To you it might be. The rest of the world has a different opinion... looking at all the radio programs, discussions, etc. Speech is far from boring... (Ask any female that can hear..) I can imagine that learning to speak without audial feedback is tedious and in the end boring. And you claiming you're a succes, and claiming that speech is fucking boring.. it must be even worse for deaf people (that cannot hear) that are not succesfull.

So, sorry about my personal view.
The more tools a child has the better, as long as there's a good chance of learning it. Learning 4 tools a little bit wis probably not very effective..

I know what u are saying and I know what deafdyke is saying. I think she meant differently than what u interpreted as. I had to laugh at this one..I think Deafdyke was refering to speech classes and drills not speech in general. However, I do get what u mean by speech in general and I dont blame you. That is why I wont deny the opportunity for speech development in all deaf/hoh children. Just prefer it not to be the only approach offered to them, that's all.

 

[jillio]

I hate those "Never mind" or "I will tell u later" comments. It used to make me want to turn into a pycho and go crzy on those who have disregarded me with those comments. It is the feeling of not being worthy of anyone's attention (iam speaking as a kid growing up and into my early adulthood).

Now, when people say that to me, it doesn't bother me cuz I have my friends and co workers in the signing community who won't say these kinds of things to me so those people who make those comments to me are not important to me anymore. Apparently I am not important to them so they are no longer important to me like they were before.

Point is, it really does suck to have that said to u constantly. Makes a person feel like nobody wants anything to do with that person. It is hard on a child when the child feels like that.

Yea, hearing people really don't know what it is like...just like we don't know what it is like to be hearing. Simple as that.

There it is! Everything that needs to be said in one sentence. And to assume that hearing know better than deaf what deaf need is arrogant.

 

[jillio]

Where's Jackie everyone? She said she was going to call me last night?

Still looking for all that research she said she had that supported not using sign until a child proves they can't make it orally, too.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Oh really? I do not do that at my job, I dont make any judgements or assumptions until I meet the parents but even after one meeting I still dont know enough to make judgements.

Yes, I get frustrated at the behaviors of the parents such as not learning to sign or not giving money for field trips but I dont make judgements about what kind of parents are they cuz I am not at their house to see what they are doing so how should I know? How do u know?

I am not making a judgement I am just able to tell how involved parents are in their child's education.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

O course it means that shel. The person you are talking about has admitted in numerous posts that a child should not be introduced to sign language until they have been in an oral environment for at least 2 years and then, if they fail to develop language skills, they can start to learn sign.

I said a year to 2 years max but I did not say at least 2 years and that 2 years was max I needed and that it is a parents' choice but in my class I do not use sign language.
Some of my students do know signs that they use at home but I do not use sign language in my class because it is an oral class. When a child uses signs in my class I recognize their sign and repeat what they sign in oral language.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Still looking for all that research she said she had that supported not using sign until a child proves they can't make it orally, too.

Jillo are you assuming thinga again. I have life. You are right I did say I was working on that research but things happen in life that need attending too. I will get to that research when I can.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Where's Jackie everyone? She said she was going to call me last night?

Pete, there have been some things I have needed to take care of. These last couple of nights I haven't gotten home until 8 or 9 at night and I think that is after 11:00 pm where you are, I am not sure what time you go to bed. What is the time difference between you and I.

 

[deafdyke]

Point is, it really does suck to have that said to u constantly.

Ah yes, and it sucks to have people constantly correcting your speech/language (if I recall from an Oticon pamphelt oral dhh kids often have difficulty with syntax of spoken language. Like they will say " How many spiders have legs?" for "how many legs do spiders have?) I'm still VERY self conscious about the way I talk, since I got teased about my voice, and corrected CONSTANTLY on pronounciation and other stuff like that (I had 100% caught up on my language delays by my second year of special needs preschool)
I am not talking about language...........I am a language maven. I love English.....but that said, speech therapy in of itself is pretty damn boring. It's like language is listening to Bob Dylan or reading Hemingway. Whereas speech and its mechanics are the equalivant of listening to someone with a boring droning voice. Even after YEARS of speech I still have a distinctly "deaf" voice. I still have to be reminded to enunicate and articualte, and modulate my voice.
Cloggy, keep an open mind as to Lotte maybe someday actually needing Sign. That's my best advice. Its great that she's doing OK orally BUT the fact that she still has spoken language delays (even thou she was implanted late) sends up a red flag. She may eventually "need" to attend a deaf school (and a lot of kids do well elementary school, but start doing not so well around middle school/jr high age) My best advice............concentrate on the speech, but ALSO keep Sign and deaf culture and deaf schools in the background as a possibilty. Don't forget that Sign and "the deaf way" might be a really good resource to utilize. Don't dismiss it as something that could possibly help your daughter really acheive.

 

[jillio]

I am not making a judgement I am just able to tell how involved parents are in their child's education.

And you can do that without ever having met the parents and had a conversation with them? Did they teach you how to do that at John Tracy Clinic?

 

[jackiesolorzano]

And you can do that without ever having met the parents and had a conversation with them? Did they teach you how to do that at John Tracy Clinic?

No they did not teach me at John Tracy Clnic. You sure make a lot of judgements about JTC. Have you heard gone to JTC? Have you ever spoke to the staff at JTC? I am assuming you never have and have made your judgement without knowing them really? Isn't that also making judgements?

By the time my student arrives in my class, I have already read their file plus have had written communication with their parents. I have a really good sense of people. The other thing I do is call all of my parents before school starts so I have communicated with them.

 

[jillio]

No they did not teach me at John Tracy Clnic. You sure make a lot of judgements about JTC. Have you heard gone to JTC? Have you ever spoke to the staff at JTC? I am assuming you never have and have made your judgement without knowing them really? Isn't that also making judgements?

By the time my student arrives in my class, I have already read their file plus have had written communication with their parents. I have a really good sense of people. The other thing I do is call all of my parents before school starts so I have communicated with them.

I am not the only one making judgements about John Tracy Clinic. Have youread some of the posts in here about JTC? And what I do know is that JTC is one of the most infamous oral clinics in the country...it is widespread knowledge. Tehy advertise themselves as an oral instituion. You admit that they are an oral institution. You were trained at JTC. How is that making a judgement? It is merely stating facts. And doesn't JTC make the judgement in regard to all deaf children, that they should be taught oral language first, and not be exposed to sign? That is making a judgement about an entire population of people based on nothing more than their own philosophy.

You said in your previous posts that you could make these judgements without contact with the parents. So which is it? You really need to stop contradicting yourself. And please go back and answer the questions posed to your earlier.

 

[shel90]

I said a year to 2 years max but I did not say at least 2 years and that 2 years was max I needed and that it is a parents' choice but in my class I do not use sign language.
Some of my students do know signs that they use at home but I do not use sign language in my class because it is an oral class. When a child uses signs in my class I recognize their sign and repeat what they sign in oral language.[/QUOTE]


Umm..what if the child doesnt understand u in oral language? Maybe that is why the child is using sign cuz that is his/her only access to communication that they can comprehend?

 

[shel90]

I just posted the opening post at a mainly hearing debate website. Here is the link:

District Files appeal against Deaf Student - Volconvo Debate Forums

Check it out and join in if you guys want. We need more people from the Deaf community representing, since I am the only person in it on that site that I know of and I am only a terp-in-training. Anyone willing to help may join in if they like.

That was interesting to read from hearing people's perspective. Here, we are arguing about deaf children needing both spoken and visual languages while the hearing people on that blog are arguing about the cost of the CART for one kid. Hmmmm..

 

[shel90]

I am back to my old argumentive and questioning self in that other forum. Wow, some people really think deaf children dont have rights to equal access to education as hearing children. That is really depressing! I am so sick of hearing people thinking they know it all what is best for deaf children's educational needs. That is why there are programs that focus on deaf education or deaf studies only cuz there is so much that is involved when it comes to the education of the deaf. :roll:

 

[rockdrummer]

I am back to my old argumentive and questioning self in that other forum. Wow, some people really think deaf children dont have rights to equal access to education as hearing children. That is really depressing! I am so sick of hearing people thinking they know it all what is best for deaf children's educational needs. That is why there are programs that focus on deaf education or deaf studies only cuz there is so much that is involved when it comes to the education of the deaf. :roll:

I understand your frustration. I am really sick of getting generalized with all hearing people because you know what Shel, NOT all hearing people are like that. Please don't generalize me or others. You come across to me as an audist when you do that and I know that is not your intention.

 

[shel90]

I understand your frustration. I am really sick of getting generalized with all hearing people because you know what Shel, NOT all hearing people are like that. Please don't generalize me or others. You come across to me as an audist when you do that and I know that is not your intention.

Ok sorry..I was just typing away and didnt realize my error.