District files appeal against deaf student

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. . . Jackie, can you please do me a favor? You are obviously experienced in what you are doing. But, that experience (training, as well) cannot substitute for life experience that many, if not all of us, have experienced. You may need to learn how to rewrite the books that you learned all your information from.

Okay, Jackie. I believe this is the comment you are referring to, as you think I am angry. I am not anymore.

First, I commend you with your experience, as others have as well. The experience and the training you have received cannot substitute for life experience of many of us. That's a given. Now, this last sentence is what you need to focus on, as it is NOT an insult. I said, "You may need to learn how to rewrite the books that you learned all your information from." What it means is this: Of the experience you have from the training you have received, can you improve the training you received so that others can and will benefit from it (i.e. you don't give this information away for free)? In other words, you may have to get your doctorate and make this area your dissertation, which would then become a book. That means that the book (s) you learned from would be rendered obsolete and your writings would supercede them.

Obviously, Jackie, you're one heck of an intelligent woman. How can you direct that for more to the common good for deaf and hoh people, not just kids? :hmm: I haven't counted how many people you are in discussion here, but this would just be the beginning to start laying the groundwork in how future training can be done. Yes, granted, this will probably take a few years and many consultations with many teachers of the deaf in all areas of it. So be it. This, Jackie, is what I meant. Oh, by the way, I think you can do it!
 
WHOA!! Hold your horses, let me catch up, okay? I promise I will clarify what I said as it did come across as an insult. Seriously, it was not. Let me explain to Jackie and respond to her and you read it, too, okay?

Pek, you said nothing insulting. The insult was created in the minds of others. You are not responsible for that.
 
Pek, you said nothing insulting. The insult was created in the minds of others. You are not responsible for that.

Thank you! I didn't think I did, but reading through what I said, I did detect a little bit that could have been misconstrued as an insult. I won't apologize for that, as that was the perception of the reader. I'm positive you knew what I meant, as I explained in full detail above.

Again, :ty:
 
Thank you! I didn't think I did, but reading through what I said, I did detect a little bit that could have been misconstrued as an insult. I won't apologize for that, as that was the perception of the reader. I'm positive you knew what I meant, as I explained in full detail above.

Again, :ty:

You are very welcome!
 
rick and jackie it is NOT just the parents who are at fault. There are TONS of parents who are invovled but whose kids don't do really well for whatever reason. Not all kids who don't do well have noninvolved parents. Matter of fact if I recall correctly, research has shown that while there may be kids who can really do well
through therapists and things like that, most oral sucesses are the result of the private school(private oral schools) effect. That measn that you'll get many high acheiving parents, with good health insurance, good family dynamics, relatively wealthy (I bet the number of working class or poor oral sucesses is VERY small)

As I said it before it is not just the parents, parents are one piece of the puzzle, please read the post where I list 4 different parts of this puzzle. I am not sure about Rick but my children have gone through public school. Also my son's implant was paid through CCS and Medical because we did not have medical insurance until after I started teaching. Another point in our case, we were working class when we started this journey. My most successful student so far also comes from a working class family. All of these points you mention we did not have any of them in the beginning. Even the family dynamics were not good in the beginning. My husband and I separated 4 times in the first 3 years of our marriage.

That's true, but I mean you raving about implants and oral methodology is like an '80's oral mom raving about hearing aids and oral schools. There were many "oral sucesses" back then too you know!
Why I remember reading about an oral sucess girl who went through CID (if I recall correctly) with no hearing aid despite having a profound loss. She didn't get her first aid til she graduated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (this was in the '40's)
You don't get that even WITH the improved technology, there are still signficent number of kids who while they can hear somewhat, they aren't hoh . Just like with hearing aids. There were (and are) kids with profound losses who are pretty much hoh with hearing aids. That doesn't mean EVERY kid is like that. Same with CI!

Yes, every kid is different but hearing aids and implants are not the same. A child with a profound hearing loss no matter how good the hearing aid is cannot hear a lot of speech sounds where an implant gives children access to all the speech sounds, it just depends on what the child is able to do with what he/she can now hear. If you cannot understand this then there really is nothing that can be done to help you understand the differences.
 
Jackie,

You stated that you were only exposed to a small amount of observation in a TC environment because that wa not your focus area. That you focused on the oral method because that was the area you were entering. And yes, if the amount of exposure that you have had to deaf education in its entirety is as minimal as you have said, then you do need more exposure to methods other than oral if you are indeed responsible for making recommendations to parents of deaf children. If you choose not to have this knowledge in making decisions for your own children, that is onething. But when you take on the responsibility for making recommendations regarding other people's children, you have an obligation to both the parents and the children to be as well informed and knowledgable as is possible.


And personally, I agree with Pek. Jackie experience is extremely limited, as she herself has admitted that she has not been exposed to any method of education other than oral. Quantity in and of itself is not superior to quality

Jillo,
I have cut and paste what you said. You said that I admitted to not being exposed to other methods. I never said that. I can see where you think I do not have enought exposure. I think I have enough but that is my opinion. I am a preschool teacher so when parents come to talk to me they are brought to me by early start teachers. I explain to parents about my program and what I do. I do mention the other programs but since that is not my area of expertise, I do not go into detail because I am not the expert in the TC programs. I do is tell them to seek out information on these programs and I offer the number to these teachers.
 
Sure jackie. Some of them are even in AD. However, if I go to the trouble to post those references for you, I expect you to actually read the studies in their entirety....methodolgy, statistical analysis, control groups, and conclusions...not just the abstracts. And to think, open mindedly about what you are reading; not just reading the parts that you think you can refute.

Jillo, if you provide me the links or names of journals I will read completely with an open mind. I hope that when I provide you the research articles I said I would you do the same.
 
Much better to offer both and have one dropped than to concentrate on one only to find it isn't going to work. That is how time is lost in the acquisition process and delays are created. Oral language exposure will not interfere with the sign development of a child that is going to be sign based, and sign will not interfer with a child that is going to be orally based. And unless both are offered, then there is no choice. The child has to focus on the single method being offered. Then when the parent decides to make a turn in the road when the child is 6 or 7, they must start over, still with the focus only on one.

Jillo it used to be 6 or 7 years the time to think about switching. Even when my kids were young it was closer to 4 or 5 years old. And now with early identification as long as everything is in place we should know if a child can oral between 2 to 3 years old.
 
Okay, here's a start.

Marshark, M., Rhoten, K. and Fabich, M. (2007). Effects of cochlear implants on children's reading scores and academic achievement. Journal of Deaf Studies and Deaf Education. 12:3. pp.269-282. Oxford University Press.

"The results are easily summarized: In none of the 4 years evaluated has there been any significant difference between the implant group and the matched comparison group on any of the seven subtests. What trends have been observed are just as likely to favor the nonimplanted group as the implanted group. Further, a 2005 analysis including 17 children with implants and their matched peers indicated no significant correlations between achievements and either length of time woth an impalnt or age at implantation."

"In one analysis, Fabich examine the relations of cochlear implants and learning among 35 students with implants and 35 randomly selected students with hearing aids. No significant difference in learning was observed. In a second analysis, Fabich examined nine entrance and placement tests available for deaf students enrolled at RIT during the 2004-05 school year. Scores were available for 83 students identified as using cochlear implants, and they were compared to 71 randomly selected peers with hearing aids. No significant differences were observed on any of the tests."

"Implicit is both studies was the assumption that deaf students with implants should be performing at a higher level than peers without implants."

".....age of implantation was not associated with better reading scores (i.e. younger is normally better). Variables related to speech therapy, parent involvement, and private vs. public school were unrelated to reading skill."

"....the children that performed better had later hearing loss onsets and hence longer (pre-hearing loss) exposure to spoken language."

".....these results suggest that there are alternative routes to reading other than skilled phonological processing."

"Most children with cochlear implants function like hard-of-hearing children, at best, and hence are likely at a disadvantage with regard to phonological processing and phonemic awareness as well as incidental learning from auditory information."

"It is only when we understand the whole functioning of deaf children in social, language, and academic domains that we will be able to fully support their needs and take advantage of their strengths."

"The Spencer, et al. study also is noteworthy becasue it is the only one available in which deaf children with implants have been found to performing at a level fully equivilent to hearing age-mates in academic performance, and the students had utilized both sign and speech during the school years."

"Indeed, it appears a tacit assumption in the field--and certainly one taken home by many parents of deaf children--that enhanced language skills typical of most deaf children who receive cochlear implants will allow then to function at the level of hearing peers in regualr school classtooms. Given the findings thus far, however, one should not assume that academic differences between deaf children and their hearing peers will disappear if the former receive cochlear implants."

".....children with implants do not have hearing, speech, or language skills that are equivilent to those of hearing peers, and thus, are likely to miss some amount of inforamtion in the classroom. A similar argument would apply to informal learning situaiton (both explicit and incidental) prior to the school years as well as during them. It may be that the advantage seen in studies by Toblin, Spencer, and their colleagues for children who use sign language and speech in school with support from sign language interpreters is a consequence of those children having greater access to classroom discourse with 2 modes of communication rather than one."

"Clearly, the purpose of cochlear implantation is to improve hearing, and the expectation is that speech and language will not be far behind. Although there still has not been any demonstration that visual forms of communication will impede development of oral-aural forms of communication among children with implants, there nonetheless is is a strong propensity in the field for emphasizing auditory information over potential sources of visual information for such children."

There is an example of the research that supports the claims that people such as shel and I make regarding CI and oral environments. For instance, support for the claim that CI users exposed to sign and speech perform more closely related to hearing peers than do oral CI students. That sign does not impede the development of oral language skills in CI children. That CI children do not outperform in reading tests. That there is no correlation between academic achievement and length of time with implant. Etc, etc,etc. I'll give you time to read and syntesize this information, and then will continue with other supporting evidence.


I haven't read the post yet but I was wondering is this the complete article.
 
Okay, Jackie. I believe this is the comment you are referring to, as you think I am angry. I am not anymore.

First, I commend you with your experience, as others have as well. The experience and the training you have received cannot substitute for life experience of many of us. That's a given. Now, this last sentence is what you need to focus on, as it is NOT an insult. I said, "You may need to learn how to rewrite the books that you learned all your information from." What it means is this: Of the experience you have from the training you have received, can you improve the training you received so that others can and will benefit from it (i.e. you don't give this information away for free)? In other words, you may have to get your doctorate and make this area your dissertation, which would then become a book. That means that the book (s) you learned from would be rendered obsolete and your writings would supercede them.

Obviously, Jackie, you're one heck of an intelligent woman. How can you direct that for more to the common good for deaf and hoh people, not just kids? :hmm: I haven't counted how many people you are in discussion here, but this would just be the beginning to start laying the groundwork in how future training can be done. Yes, granted, this will probably take a few years and many consultations with many teachers of the deaf in all areas of it. So be it. This, Jackie, is what I meant. Oh, by the way, I think you can do it!

I actually have thought a lot about going back and getting my ph.d. It is a joke in my family. I tell my husband that once I get my ph.d he will have to call me Dr. Jackie. He said that if I did, he would be more then happy to call Dr. Jackie. It is a lot of work and money plus since my kids are still in high school there is still a lot that I need to do for them right now. My goal is once they are in college I will go back.

Cochlear Implants are fairly new. And every time you turn around the technology improves. There is such a difference between my son's and daughter's implant.

I am acutally right now currently working on getting my certification in Auditory Verbal Therapy. I am learning a lot right now with this process. I am working with one of the original AVTs in southern California. I am very lucky to be able to learn from years of being in the field.
 
Thank you! I didn't think I did, but reading through what I said, I did detect a little bit that could have been misconstrued as an insult. I won't apologize for that, as that was the perception of the reader. I'm positive you knew what I meant, as I explained in full detail above.

Again, :ty:


Pek, I did not feel insult, I felt that maybe I said something to offend you. I do at time blurt things out and have a way of offending people without meaning. And was what I was afraid I did.

Thank you so much clarifying your point.
 
Cloggy,

You must never forget that the Hackie Sack Queen has already told us that she has read every bit of research that has been written in the last 20 years! Do you actually expect her to cite at least one of the numerous articles and studies that she says she always is providing?
Rick

Very true,
She read everything, knows that everything we read is wrong, and she has all the articles to back it up.

However, NONE have been shared with us. We just have to take her word for it, because she's doing a masters, so she knows, so she's right...

So, she's not showing us the articles, not citing any books, and when confronted with it she say's she has done that SOOO many times, and it's US that is not interested and too lazy to do our own research...

And you know what... I think she actually believes herself. When you say it in your mind time and time again, you start believing it...

For the record.....

I have yet to see any documentation from her....

Actually, with her raving about the size of the groups regarding a scientific article, my guess is that is not able to find ANY article that is actually satisfying her own standards.. in effect, she is unable to show to us she is right using the same criteria that she is using to show we don't get it....

Well, we get it !!
 
Okay, here's a start.

Marshark, M., Rhoten, K. and Fabich, M. (2007). Effects of cochlear implants on children's reading scores and academic achievement. Journal of Deaf Studies and Deaf Education. 12:3. pp.269-282. Oxford University Press.
...................
Excellent, thanks very much.....

A study with "17 children with implants and their matched peers " and "35 students with implants and 35 randomly selected students with hearing aids" and "83 students identified as using cochlear implants, and they were compared to 71 randomly selected peers with hearing aids."

Now I wonder, these are students that made it to that level. The question now is:
How many (as a percentage) of the children with CI never made it to that level, and how many children without CI made it, or never made it..?
 
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In the same journal, same issue I also found:
Reading Comprehension of Deaf Children With Cochlear Implants
from Journal of Deaf Studies and Deaf Education - current issue
by Vermeulen, A. M., van Bon, W., Schreuder, R., Knoors, H., Snik, A.

The reading comprehension and visual word recognition in 50 deaf children and adolescents with at least 3 years of cochlear implant (CI) use were evaluated. Their skills were contrasted with reference data of 500 deaf children without CIs. The reading comprehension level in children with CIs was expected to surpass that in deaf children without implants, partly via improved visual word recognition. Reading comprehension scores of children with implants were significantly better than those of deaf children without implants, although the performance in implant users was substantially lagging behind that in hearing children.
Visual word recognition was better in children with CIs than in children without implants, in secondary education only. No difference in visual word recognition was found between the children with CIs and the hearing children, whereas the deaf children without implants showed a slightly poorer performance.
The difference in reading comprehension performance of the deaf children with and without CIs remained present when visual word recognition was controlled for. This indicates that other reading-related skills were also contributing to the improved reading comprehension skills of deaf children with CIs.

(The underlining and fatt print are done by me.)

I have to say, unlike you, my focus goes to "Reading comprehension scores of children with implants were significantly better than those of deaf children without implants, although the performance in implant users was substantially lagging behind that in hearing children."

So is the one study more relevant compared to the other.... Guess not, unless, like you you weigh the validity of the study by the size of the group..... in that case.....

POP
 
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I am not sure about your program but the TC programs out here, I would say the same thing as John Hopkins, there is not enough spoken language going on in these classes so I would also recommend parents if they want an implant to find a good oral program but monitor their child closely in case they do need to include sign.
If a parent is going to implant their child they need to focus on developing oral language. Now maybe your school is different.

Why only oral language? Why not both?

Another thing, by encouraging more and more children to be put in oral-only programs will endanger many jobs that deaf people hold as teachers, teacher aides and counselors. Ironic that the education of the deaf will put deaf people out of jobs simply because they cant "talk". :roll:
 
Yes, every kid is different but hearing aids and implants are not the same. A child with a profound hearing loss no matter how good the hearing aid is cannot hear a lot of speech sounds where an implant gives children access to all the speech sounds, it just depends on what the child is able to do with what he/she can now hear. If you cannot understand this then there really is nothing that can be done to help you understand the differences.

That would depend on a lot of varibles, jackie, as there are childrenwith profound losses that can perceive much of the speech frequency as well as accomplish things such as telephone conversations with an HA.
 
And personally, I agree with Pek. Jackie experience is extremely limited, as she herself has admitted that she has not been exposed to any method of education other than oral. Quantity in and of itself is not superior to quality

Jillo,
I have cut and paste what you said. You said that I admitted to not being exposed to other methods. I never said that. I can see where you think I do not have enought exposure. I think I have enough but that is my opinion. I am a preschool teacher so when parents come to talk to me they are brought to me by early start teachers. I explain to parents about my program and what I do. I do mention the other programs but since that is not my area of expertise, I do not go into detail because I am not the expert in the TC programs. I do is tell them to seek out information on these programs and I offer the number to these teachers.

Shall I go back and find the post for you jackie? I'd haqte for you to think people are picking on you again, so I will ask your permission before I actually quote the words you used.
 
I haven't read the post yet but I was wondering is this the complete article.

Geez. No, jackie, it is not the complete article. If you will look at the above citation, you will see that the entire journal article is several pages long, and is a review of numerous studies performed in the past 5 years. Ever hear of a library?
 
Very true,
She read everything, knows that everything we read is wrong, and she has all the articles to back it up.

However, NONE have been shared with us. We just have to take her word for it, because she's doing a masters, so she knows, so she's right...

So, she's not showing us the articles, not citing any books, and when confronted with it she say's she has done that SOOO many times, and it's US that is not interested and too lazy to do our own research...

And you know what... I think she actually believes herself. When you say it in your mind time and time again, you start believing it...

For the record.....


I have yet to see any documentation from her....

Actually, with her raving about the size of the groups regarding a scientific article, my guess is that is not able to find ANY article that is actually satisfying her own standards.. in effect, she is unable to show to us she is right using the same criteria that she is using to show we don't get it....

Well, we get it !!


Post # 1032. All of the information you need to find the complete article is available to you. Let's see how motivated you are to learn something.
 
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