District files appeal against deaf student

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The CI has nothing to do with it...deaf children with HAs, mild hearing losses, CIs or nothing are still being placed in oral only programs in which they struggle before finally they are placed in a signing environment but by then it is almost too late for most of them due to passing the critical years of language development.

Parents...we all know not all parents are the same. I am talking about the professionals who work with deaf chidlren. All professionals need to understand this risk and should never ever tell the parents that their child needs to be in a spoken language environment first and if it doesnt work, then switch to signing. That is a dangerous game they are playing with their language development. Yes, I have seen many professionals say that to the parents and the parents who know nothing about deafness will believe them.

The John Hopkins Implant Center is near my work and u knwo what they tell the parents? They tell the parents not to send their kids to our school because we dont use enough spoken language. They strongly advocate oral-only first and then if necessary, switch to signing later if the child is showing delays in language.hhhmmmm..not a good idea if u ask me. Maybe for u and others it is ok but for me..what I see, it is not funny.

I am not sure about your program but the TC programs out here, I would say the same thing as John Hopkins, there is not enough spoken language going on in these classes so I would also recommend parents if they want an implant to find a good oral program but monitor their child closely in case they do need to include sign.
If a parent is going to implant their child they need to focus on developing oral language. Now maybe your school is different.
 
First take a hard look at their parents. What did they do to help their child with the process.
rick and jackie it is NOT just the parents who are at fault. There are TONS of parents who are invovled but whose kids don't do really well for whatever reason. Not all kids who don't do well have noninvolved parents. Matter of fact if I recall correctly, research has shown that while there may be kids who can really do well
through therapists and things like that, most oral sucesses are the result of the private school(private oral schools) effect. That measn that you'll get many high acheiving parents, with good health insurance, good family dynamics, relatively wealthy (I bet the number of working class or poor oral sucesses is VERY small)
The implant is a very valuable tool and can be very helpful if everything is in place. This whole process is just like a puzzle and the implant is only one piece of the puzzle.
That's true, but I mean you raving about implants and oral methodology is like an '80's oral mom raving about hearing aids and oral schools. There were many "oral sucesses" back then too you know!
Why I remember reading about an oral sucess girl who went through CID (if I recall correctly) with no hearing aid despite having a profound loss. She didn't get her first aid til she graduated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (this was in the '40's)
You don't get that even WITH the improved technology, there are still signficent number of kids who while they can hear somewhat, they aren't hoh . Just like with hearing aids. There were (and are) kids with profound losses who are pretty much hoh with hearing aids. That doesn't mean EVERY kid is like that. Same with CI!
 
Can anyone help me in finding any of them.....????

Oeps, I see a bubble busting!

Cloggy,

You must never forget that the Hackie Sack Queen has already told us that she has read every bit of research that has been written in the last 20 years! Do you actually expect her to cite at least one of the numerous articles and stduies that she says she always is providing?
Rick
 
jillio;818785No said:
Please leave me out as the reason to justify your bogus argument. I merely mentioned three parents of ci kids, if you want to know how many ci kids I personally know and have observed over the years you are going to need a couple dozen hackie sacks.
Rick
 
rick and jackie it is NOT just the parents who are at fault. There are TONS of parents who are invovled but whose kids don't do really well for whatever reason. Not all kids who don't do well have noninvolved parents. Matter of fact if I recall correctly, research has shown that while there may be kids who can really do well
!


That's is a distortion of what Jackie and I said. We said to look first to the parents not that they are the sole reason.

Once again the reference to some unnamed study that you once read somewhere in some book at one time about something by this guy who was talking about that guy who said.................
 
Jillo I have not admit that I have not been exposed to other methods. I have explain how I have been exposed to other methods. It was you that said that I needed more exposure, I did not say that you did.

Jackie,

You stated that you were only exposed to a small amount of observation in a TC environment because that wa not your focus area. That you focused on the oral method because that was the area you were entering. And yes, if the amount of exposure that you have had to deaf education in its entirety is as minimal as you have said, then you do need more exposure to methods other than oral if you are indeed responsible for making recommendations to parents of deaf children. If you choose not to have this knowledge in making decisions for your own children, that is onething. But when you take on the responsibility for making recommendations regarding other people's children, you have an obligation to both the parents and the children to be as well informed and knowledgable as is possible.
 
Can anyone help me in finding any of them.....????

Oeps, I see a bubble busting!

No bubbles bursting here, cloggy. Spend a little less time on the sarcasm, and a little more on the search.
 
Jillo I would also love to see the research. If you cannot post them then could you please give the name of the journal and the title of the research. I would love to look it up.

My kids are gone next week so I will have lots of time to do some research. I want you to know from my end I will pull out my research articles next week.

Sure jackie. Some of them are even in AD. However, if I go to the trouble to post those references for you, I expect you to actually read the studies in their entirety....methodolgy, statistical analysis, control groups, and conclusions...not just the abstracts. And to think, open mindedly about what you are reading; not just reading the parts that you think you can refute.
 
Sorry but I disagree...my friends have shared their experiences with me and how they wished they had been introduced to sign when they were younger so they can have a healthy balance of both. I take their personal experiences in account over their parents" experiences of raising them.

Agreed...one is first person and the other is second person. Parents do not always interpret the experiences of their child realistically. And quite often, the parent's objective is not the same as the child's objective.
 
Right..I am advocating for both for all deaf children so that way as adults, they know they have been offered both instead of one or the other and wishing they had more spoken language exposure or wishing they had ASL exposure. It is the best of both so why the oral-only philosophy?

Much better to offer both and have one dropped than to concentrate on one only to find it isn't going to work. That is how time is lost in the acquisition process and delays are created. Oral language exposure will not interfere with the sign development of a child that is going to be sign based, and sign will not interfer with a child that is going to be orally based. And unless both are offered, then there is no choice. The child has to focus on the single method being offered. Then when the parent decides to make a turn in the road when the child is 6 or 7, they must start over, still with the focus only on one.
 
Just as you care of the success of deaf children, I do also. I know you have seen the kids that haven't had that much success with the implant. I have seen not only my children but many children that have succeed with the implant if everything is in place but I understand you don't see these kids you only see the kids that are not successful. As time goes by, there will be more and more kids successing with the implant. We are learning more and more everyday so we know what is working and what is not.
I know many teenagers that were implant around the same time that my children were. There are about 20 teenagers and only 2 didn't have the success that the others did. One was because there were other issues and the other the parents didn't do what they were suppose it.
Then there are my students, I make sure my parents know what they are suppose to do. In the summer, I see my students once a week for therapy and to make sure my parents are doing what they are need to do. I am not getting paid for this time but I believe in what I do and will do whatever I need to see my students succeed. It is not easy process but it can and does happen.

And in the meantime, we are experimenting on deaf kids. Do you truly find that acceptable?
 
I am not sure about your program but the TC programs out here, I would say the same thing as John Hopkins, there is not enough spoken language going on in these classes so I would also recommend parents if they want an implant to find a good oral program but monitor their child closely in case they do need to include sign.
If a parent is going to implant their child they need to focus on developing oral language. Now maybe your school is different.

Please explain why it is necessary to focus on oral language exclusively simply becasue a child has an implant. I'm not being sarcastic. I truly want to know what the logic behind that statement is.
 
Cloggy,

You must never forget that the Hackie Sack Queen has already told us that she has read every bit of research that has been written in the last 20 years! Do you actually expect her to cite at least one of the numerous articles and stduies that she says she always is providing?
Rick

Again with the insults and the sarcasm. You have responded to some of the research I have posted.

And I said nothing of the kind.

And agian, why is it that you feel it is necessary to discount a proven method of providing visual cues for deaf students? I thought you proposed to use anything that worked? Why the change in attitude? Oh, I forgot! You raised a child with CI, so you know more about deaf education than the professionals actually working with deaf children on a daily basis. I'll be sure to let them know that rick says they don't know what they are doing.
 
Please leave me out as the reason to justify your bogus argument. I merely mentioned three parents of ci kids, if you want to know how many ci kids I personally know and have observed over the years you are going to need a couple dozen hackie sacks.
Rick

If you don't want your posts referenced, there is a simple solution. Don't make them.

And again with the discounting of a method that has been used and works in deaf classrooms as well as various other settings. What is your problem rick. That it isn't strictly oral?
 
That's is a distortion of what Jackie and I said. We said to look first to the parents not that they are the sole reason.

Once again the reference to some unnamed study that you once read somewhere in some book at one time about something by this guy who was talking about that guy who said.................

And, if you actually read more of those studies and those books, you would be infinately more capable of carrying on a reasonable discussion instead of having to resort to insults and name calling to divert attention from the fact that you are ill informed.
 
That's is a distortion of what Jackie and I said. We said to look first to the parents not that they are the sole reason.

Once again the reference to some unnamed study that you once read somewhere in some book at one time about something by this guy who was talking about that guy who said.................

Gonna have to agree with that first statement. When a child is not as successful as predicted with a CI, or an HA for that matter, we should most definately look to the parents first. Becasue chances are very great that the parent made the decision to place that child in an oral program, and have not given them every opportunity to acquire language by all means.
 
Pete have her parents tried contacting MSAD? Perhaps they could help. Also try looking in the Wrights Law site to see if there is a lawyer in the Moorehead area who does pro bono (or little cost) work. I'll check it out myself but it sounds alot like this child could have a good due process case, especially 'if' her parents requested a Prior Written Notice when the school refused an interpetor. I wish them luck. But they might want to check into MSAD for now, the program was good enough for a family to move here from down south a few years ago after researching different deaf schools. The dorms open on Sunday nights and the kids get out at 1 on friday to go home. Her local district would have to provide transportation. We only live 1 hr away from faribault so our daughter goes up on Mon. morning. There is probably the school calendar up now which would show when they dorms are open after holidays and such. I'm thinking that Moorhead to Faribault is 2 hrs or so?

BUT having said that I can see why they wouldn't want to send their young daughter to a residential school. I wish them luck in pushing the interpetor issue. Tell them to increase their success in getting a interpetor they need to establish that it's appropriate for her and they need to get in writing WHY the school is refusing. (PWN) My guess is when confronted with that request things might change for the better, if not if they've done the research needed (case law and all the studies they can find that pertain to a child using ASL, there are people here who probably have that) they probalby can get what she needs. I do hope they rather then signing the IEP they requested more information or due process.

What she gets does depend on how far they are willing to go.

I'll be seeing them Sunday, as they invited me to their church. Their church has an interpreter, whereas mine has a deaf section, but no one signed last week. I'd appreciate an interpreter myself, as I can improve and learn more asl and also make myself visible at the same time. I am also on the email list they belong to for accessibility, so we are all on the same page.

I did think about mentioning MSAD to them, will on Sunday. I still wish my parents had sent me there when I was a kid. The kids in my school were very mean, although elementary school wasn't that bad. Junior high (7th grade only) was horrible; 8th & 9th grade I was in a private Christian school that nearly landed me in special education in 10th grade. I had other problems in hs with student support services, too, but that's another story.
 
WOW, you really know how to insult people... you got it down to an art.

A mother of a deaf child, fighting for the rights of her child, and you dare to say that she needs some life experience....

Are you as artistic in apologizing....???

WHOA!! Hold your horses, let me catch up, okay? I promise I will clarify what I said as it did come across as an insult. Seriously, it was not. Let me explain to Jackie and respond to her and you read it, too, okay?
 
Okay, here's a start.

Marshark, M., Rhoten, K. and Fabich, M. (2007). Effects of cochlear implants on children's reading scores and academic achievement. Journal of Deaf Studies and Deaf Education. 12:3. pp.269-282. Oxford University Press.

"The results are easily summarized: In none of the 4 years evaluated has there been any significant difference between the implant group and the matched comparison group on any of the seven subtests. What trends have been observed are just as likely to favor the nonimplanted group as the implanted group. Further, a 2005 analysis including 17 children with implants and their matched peers indicated no significant correlations between achievements and either length of time woth an impalnt or age at implantation."

"In one analysis, Fabich examine the relations of cochlear implants and learning among 35 students with implants and 35 randomly selected students with hearing aids. No significant difference in learning was observed. In a second analysis, Fabich examined nine entrance and placement tests available for deaf students enrolled at RIT during the 2004-05 school year. Scores were available for 83 students identified as using cochlear implants, and they were compared to 71 randomly selected peers with hearing aids. No significant differences were observed on any of the tests."

"Implicit is both studies was the assumption that deaf students with implants should be performing at a higher level than peers without implants."

".....age of implantation was not associated with better reading scores (i.e. younger is normally better). Variables related to speech therapy, parent involvement, and private vs. public school were unrelated to reading skill."

"....the children that performed better had later hearing loss onsets and hence longer (pre-hearing loss) exposure to spoken language."

".....these results suggest that there are alternative routes to reading other than skilled phonological processing."

"Most children with cochlear implants function like hard-of-hearing children, at best, and hence are likely at a disadvantage with regard to phonological processing and phonemic awareness as well as incidental learning from auditory information."

"It is only when we understand the whole functioning of deaf children in social, language, and academic domains that we will be able to fully support their needs and take advantage of their strengths."

"The Spencer, et al. study also is noteworthy becasue it is the only one available in which deaf children with implants have been found to performing at a level fully equivilent to hearing age-mates in academic performance, and the students had utilized both sign and speech during the school years."

"Indeed, it appears a tacit assumption in the field--and certainly one taken home by many parents of deaf children--that enhanced language skills typical of most deaf children who receive cochlear implants will allow then to function at the level of hearing peers in regualr school classtooms. Given the findings thus far, however, one should not assume that academic differences between deaf children and their hearing peers will disappear if the former receive cochlear implants."

".....children with implants do not have hearing, speech, or language skills that are equivilent to those of hearing peers, and thus, are likely to miss some amount of inforamtion in the classroom. A similar argument would apply to informal learning situaiton (both explicit and incidental) prior to the school years as well as during them. It may be that the advantage seen in studies by Toblin, Spencer, and their colleagues for children who use sign language and speech in school with support from sign language interpreters is a consequence of those children having greater access to classroom discourse with 2 modes of communication rather than one."

"Clearly, the purpose of cochlear implantation is to improve hearing, and the expectation is that speech and language will not be far behind. Although there still has not been any demonstration that visual forms of communication will impede development of oral-aural forms of communication among children with implants, there nonetheless is is a strong propensity in the field for emphasizing auditory information over potential sources of visual information for such children."

There is an example of the research that supports the claims that people such as shel and I make regarding CI and oral environments. For instance, support for the claim that CI users exposed to sign and speech perform more closely related to hearing peers than do oral CI students. That sign does not impede the development of oral language skills in CI children. That CI children do not outperform in reading tests. That there is no correlation between academic achievement and length of time with implant. Etc, etc,etc. I'll give you time to read and syntesize this information, and then will continue with other supporting evidence.
 
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