District files appeal against deaf student

[Cloggy]

Oh Lord!!

Could you elaborate, please?

Actually, he summed it up for me...
thanks Rockdrummmer. (sorry... I'll leave you out of it...

 

[jillio]

And yet, you counted only 4 with CI on this board.... So you forgetting all the others is OK..???
How is it - living in your own bubble??
So I guess, reading through all the babbling of you, that you don't have any articles to share... That is disappointing, I had expected that you had something to share...
Guess the group of parents that raise their child with sign is not big enough to justify a proper study... (And I know you find it important that the group is big enough to justify any conclusions.)

And cloggy, why is it that you refuse to respond to the numerous questions regarding Lotte's language delays? [/qoute]I have?
Children that have been born hearing haven't been deaf for 2+ years....... .sounds logical to me....

BTW... what was the topic again....???

No, cloggy, I was referring to the people referenced in the post by rick. He is the one that came up with the numbers, not me.

And this is exactly what we are all talking about. Your replies are obnoxious and insulting. You can't stick to the subject. You have just insulted and made assumptions about all parents who raise their child with signs, and then you expect that we will not respond in kind. You are one of the most guilty for taking a subject off topic with your insults. And, by the way cloggy, I thought you were using signs with your daughter.

Yep, it is logical. Which means that a deaf child who has been implanted is not a hearing child, but a deaf child with an implant and must be afforded the accommodations as such. And your impanted daughter suffers from a 2 year delay. Isn't that correct? And, you use signs with your implanted daughter. Isn't that correct? So what is your point cloggy?

And I have already posted numerous research articles, and the references necessary to find those studies. In fact, you have made insulting comments regarding most of them based on nothing more than the fact that it was I that posted them. It is obvious that you have no desire to broaden your knowledge base, or to discuss anything in a reasonable and intelligent manner, but are simply loking for another way to attempt to instigate an argument. Otherwise, you would not contiue with these immature tactics.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I have friends who are ci users but I would not eqate that friendship witht he actual experience of raising a ci child.

"Numerous" 6 out of 40 is hardly numerous. And cut the BS, if you really are an educator, as you claim to be, then you already know that if you want to know why these kids are where they are, then look at the parents and that will give you a big clue as to why they are years behind in their language development.

Its not the ci, its not the "professionals" its the parents in almost every instance.

SO RIGHT RICK,

For those kids, Shel, that are not successful with their CI's as you say.
First take a hard look at their parents. What did they do to help their child with the process.
Second take a look at how old they were when they were implant.
Third take a look at their implant center. The implant center really needs to stay on top of things. That first year is very important making sure the map is at the level the child needs.
Fourth take a look at the educational system they were in at before they got to you Shel. The educational system the child is placed needs to understand the process that goes along with the implant.
The implant is a very valuable tool and can be very helpful if everything is in place. This whole process is just like a puzzle and the implant is only one piece of the puzzle.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Again, u assumed without asking...I have some friends who are CI users.

Oh, if children with CIs acquire language and utilize sppech and deal with the hearing world, how come I am seeing numerous of children with CIs being referred to my school because they were unable to develop spoken language? Unless u were just talking about your children only?

Shel, it is not the same having friends with implants as raising children with implants. As parents we are there every step of the way. We sit with our kids when they go to the implant centers. We sit in IEPs. We talk to the teachers. We fight for our children's rights. And we work with our children every single day. There is no way you can compare what we as parents do with our children that have implants.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I have never blamed the CIs..where did that come from?

Yes, it is the professionals too... Most parents are not like u..they are scared and frightened and the professionals need to understand deaf and deaf needs from all ranges not just one approach only cuz the parents will believe whatever they tell them. Most parents dont take the time to research like u and others here on AD do. U should be so proud of yourself.


This is where you are so right. I have seen this with parents all the time. They just take what the school says and do not do any research. But I have seen it go both ways. With me they said my children would never talk and read above a 3rd grade this is what I found unacceptable. More the part of my children not reading above a 3rd grade level especially since I do love to read. This where I will always be grateful to John Tracy not because of their oral program but because of the program they have for their parents. Since in my area they have a stronger TC program then oral, the school system would read an audiogram and tell parents OK your child needs a TC program without telling them about the oral program. Don't get me wrong, I think if a parents wants TC it is their choice but they deserve all the information to make an informed decision.

Right and I have always said..why not the parents be the models for spoken language and the schools be the models for sign language and spoken language. I said that in a post somewhere else so did u miss that post?

What BS? Now, u are calling me a liar as well? Iam lying about the professionals who advised my mom that I and my brother didnt need sign language??? I am lying that we suffered from the oral-only method? Iam lying about what I see daily? I am lying about what many of my deaf friends have grown up orally and wished they had been exposed to sign language? Am I lying about all that?


Whatever happened to asking first before jumping to conclusions?

Where did 6 out of 40 come from?I have met thousands of deaf/hoh people since I became involved with the Deaf community about 10 years ago. Again with the assumptions.

This afternoon I went out with a group of my girlfriends and we were discussing oral education..all of them said they want BOTH not just one or the other. Dont their wishes amount for anything?

I think it can go both ways. Several of my daughter's friends have told me that they wish their parents were like me and wished they could talk. I think as parents we really have to listen to our children. I know that my children and I talk about this all the time.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

There is no insult in Pek's statement other than the one that you have created in your own mind. And simply because a mother is fighting for the rights of her deaf child does not mean that her experience is equal to that of others with greater and more varied experience. And personally, I agree with Pek. Jackie experience is extremely limited, as she herself has admitted that she has not been exposed to any method of education other than oral. Quantity in and of itself is not superior to quality.

Jillo I have not admit that I have not been exposed to other methods. I have explain how I have been exposed to other methods. It was you that said that I needed more exposure, I did not say that you did.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Can I jump in here and tell you what I found out during lunch today? I met a family that knew me when I moved here in 2002 (Moorhead, Minnesota) and their grade school daughter is deaf. She cannot read lips very well and the schools are refusing to provide a certified interpreter for her. She appears intelligent to me, so that's not the problem. The problem is this girl needs help now and no one is willing to bend. Jackie, let me ask you this . . . pretend you and I are on a trip to another country, say, Sweden. I am fluent in it (I know a few words, really, but for this, I am fluent) and you don't know a single word. We are out shopping and we get separated. You panic and speak English to people who look at you funny and want to be helpful, but they can't because you don't speak Swedish. Finally, someone calls the police and you're arrested and thrown in jail (disorderly conduct) and still, everyone talks Swedish to you. You honestly don't know or even understand the language, but you try. Finally, I find you and you are beyond upset with me. Now, pretend you are a deaf child who is having someone speak to them. Can you hear them?

I don't know about other deaf kids but yes my children can hear them and understand people out in the general public.

Of course not, you're deaf. How can you even try to hear or even understand?

Sorry, I will have to concur with shel. She and I are close enough in age to be able to tell you horror stories in mainstream classes, probably her more than me. This isn't about weight, this is about being able to hear, or, in this case, not being able to hear. When push comes to shove, I will always side with the deaf/hoh because of my own experiences. The schools failed me. Fortuneately, I didn't commit suicide, but how are we going to reach these deaf/hoh kids when they can't hear or even relate to anything in class? Don't you think they have dreams for their lives, too?

You know, shel, again, for the record, since Jackie wasn't paying attention, I apologize to you for being hard on your for your grammar mistakes. I try not to spell incorrectly and put the cute messages on my avatar and signature. It is in fun only, not to offend anyone. I sometimes reword what someone is saying because I automatically correct it anyway when I read it.

Jackie, can you please do me a favor? You are obviously experienced in what you are doing. But, that experience (training, as well) cannot substitute for life experience that many, if not all of us, have experienced. You may need to learn how to rewrite the books that you learned all your information from.

Pek,
I am not sure how you want me to respond. First, of all I know that life experience is more valuable then research. I agree with you I do not know what it is like to be deaf. But I do live with it on a daily basis. I live with it at work and at home. I have a very open relationship with my children and their friends. While I do not personally know what it is like, I know what it is like from their standpoint through what they tell me.

My children can talk to people and tell them what they want. Honestly I do not know other deaf people if they come into a sitution like this.

For deaf kids that just sign they should have an interpeter with them.

Pek (this question is just for him), can I ask you what I said to offend you. Maybe it's just me but I don't understand what I said to offend you.

 

[Cloggy]

............ bla bla bla ....
And I have already posted numerous research articles, and the references necessary to find those studies.
...bla bla bla.

Can anyone help me in finding any of them.....????

Oeps, I see a bubble busting!

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Can anyone help me in finding any of them.....????

Oeps, I see a bubble busting!

Jillo I would also love to see the research. If you cannot post them then could you please give the name of the journal and the title of the research. I would love to look it up.

My kids are gone next week so I will have lots of time to do some research. I want you to know from my end I will pull out my research articles next week.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

In case anybody is interested, we just finished our second TV news interview. FOX 11 is going to do a feature story on our due process case. On Monday, the reporter interviewed our attorney and today she came out to our house and interviewed our family. The reporter was such a nice person. As soon as I know when it will be available online I will let you know.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Sure, sometimes it seems like I'm watching a bunch of kids arguing.

Rockdrummer. I agree with you and for my part because I know I do have a part in this, I am sorry. I try to control myself but it is hard when I come across such closed minded people not an excuse just an explantion.

 

[rockdrummer]

Rockdrummer. I agree with you and for my part because I know I do have a part in this, I am sorry. I try to control myself but it is hard when I come across such closed minded people not an excuse just an explantion.

Yeah, It's kind of interesting to watch. The more I read the more the true colors and hidden agendas of people are revealed. In my view if folks are truly interested in the education of deaf children they would advocate any method that works and be prepared to make adjustments as you go. For some, signing will be the best solution and for others oral may be. As I stated before, I don't believe there is a silver bullet. IMO the best approach is a diversified one and gravitate towards what is working the best.

Since I've been here I have leared much about deafness. What I have also learned is that there are varying opinions about how to best educate a deaf child. I hear from educators and also from those that have been through the system with varying approaches. What I come away with is that there are so many different methods out there because not every thing works for everyone. Hopefully the end result of the varity of methods is a higher success rate.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Yeah, It's kind of interesting to watch. The more I read the more the true colors and hidden agendas of people are revealed. In my view if folks are truly interested in the education of deaf children they would advocate any method that works and be prepared to make adjustments as you go. For some, signing will be the best solution and for others oral may be. As I stated before, I don't believe there is a silver bullet. IMO the best approach is a diversified one and gravitate towards what is working the best.

Since I've been here I have leared much about deafness. What I have also learned is that there are varying opinions about how to best educate a deaf child. I hear from educators and also from those that have been through the system with varying approaches. What I come away with is that there are so many different methods out there because not every thing works for everyone. Hopefully the end result of the varity of methods is a higher success rate.

Yes, I agree with you that not every approach is right for every child. When my kids were first diagnosis it was hard trying to see what would work for my kids. The other thing that is important for us parents is to have flexible and know that just because one method works for a child, it doesn't mean that it works for all children. I know for us when we choose the oral route we had a very limited time frame to work with because my daughter did not get diagnosis until she was 2. Whenever I met with her teachers I would say "do we need to starting looking at other methods." But you know my daughter answered that question for us when she started taking off with oral language.
Although we have raised our children orally, I found many successful kids that were raised just with sign language and have been very successful. I was just speaking to a mom of my son's friend. She was telling me her experiences in the beginning. They choose the signing route. What was so wonderful about this family is not only are both parents very fluent in sign language but their extend family too. Grandfather got so involved that he became an interpeter and is now a TC teacher.
My beliefs are it doesn't matter what route a family takes as long as the family embraces whatever route.

 

[shel90]

SO RIGHT RICK,

For those kids, Shel, that are not successful with their CI's as you say.
First take a hard look at their parents. What did they do to help their child with the process.
Second take a look at how old they were when they were implant.
Third take a look at their implant center. The implant center really needs to stay on top of things. That first year is very important making sure the map is at the level the child needs.
Fourth take a look at the educational system they were in at before they got to you Shel. The educational system the child is placed needs to understand the process that goes along with the implant.
The implant is a very valuable tool and can be very helpful if everything is in place. This whole process is just like a puzzle and the implant is only one piece of the puzzle.

That is what I am talking about..the educational system they were in were the oral-only approach and mainstreamed.

 

[shel90]

Shel, it is not the same having friends with implants as raising children with implants. As parents we are there every step of the way. We sit with our kids when they go to the implant centers. We sit in IEPs. We talk to the teachers. We fight for our children's rights. And we work with our children every single day. There is no way you can compare what we as parents do with our children that have implants.

Sorry but I disagree...my friends have shared their experiences with me and how they wished they had been introduced to sign when they were younger so they can have a healthy balance of both. I take their personal experiences in account over their parents" experiences of raising them.

 

[shel90]

I think it can go both ways. Several of my daughter's friends have told me that they wish their parents were like me and wished they could talk. I think as parents we really have to listen to our children. I know that my children and I talk about this all the time.

Right..I am advocating for both for all deaf children so that way as adults, they know they have been offered both instead of one or the other and wishing they had more spoken language exposure or wishing they had ASL exposure. It is the best of both so why the oral-only philosophy?

 

[jackiesolorzano]

That is what I am talking about..the educational system they were in were the oral-only approach and mainstreamed.

You responded to what needs to take in step 4 how about the other steps. How about what the parents did, the age of implantation, and the implant center. If these 3 other things didn't happen then of course the implant will not be as successful as possible.

 

[shel90]

If I change and accept in using whatever methods work for the deaf child and trying all these different methods before finally finding one that works for the child, that would mean I would find it ok for deaf children to be passed around from different programs and then waste so many years of language development and educational progress therefore allowing them to have poor literacy skills. I know if I "become" open minded as u all say we should be, then I would not feel so good about myself saying it is ok for children to be language deprived. U see success stories, I see the failures from the oral-only programs and 1 is too much! It is such a shameful waste on those children's potential.

Doesnt matter who the parents are, what implant center is, and what age the child is implanted...the point is many children are being deprived of language when it DOESNT have to be that way since we have a visual language available which is sign language. I wont accept "trying" different methods to see which will work for each child and risking them to be more and more delayed and if u call me close minded then that means u are ok with that problem happening as long as it doesnt happen to your children, right?

 

[shel90]

You responded to what needs to take in step 4 how about the other steps. How about what the parents did, the age of implantation, and the implant center. If these 3 other things didn't happen then of course the implant will not be as successful as possible.

The CI has nothing to do with it...deaf children with HAs, mild hearing losses, CIs or nothing are still being placed in oral only programs in which they struggle before finally they are placed in a signing environment but by then it is almost too late for most of them due to passing the critical years of language development.

Parents...we all know not all parents are the same. I am talking about the professionals who work with deaf chidlren. All professionals need to understand this risk and should never ever tell the parents that their child needs to be in a spoken language environment first and if it doesnt work, then switch to signing. That is a dangerous game they are playing with their language development. Yes, I have seen many professionals say that to the parents and the parents who know nothing about deafness will believe them.

The John Hopkins Implant Center is near my work and u knwo what they tell the parents? They tell the parents not to send their kids to our school because we dont use enough spoken language. They strongly advocate oral-only first and then if necessary, switch to signing later if the child is showing delays in language.hhhmmmm..not a good idea if u ask me. Maybe for u and others it is ok but for me..what I see, it is not funny.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

That is what I am talking about..the educational system they were in were the oral-only approach and mainstreamed.

If I change and accept in using whatever methods work for the deaf child and trying all these different methods before finally finding one that works for the child, that would mean I would find it ok for deaf children to be passed around from different programs and then waste so many years of language development and educational progress therefore allowing them to have poor literacy skills. I know if I "become" open minded as u all say we should be, then I would not feel so good about myself saying it is ok for children to be language deprived. U see success stories, I see the failures from the oral-only programs and 1 is too much! It is such a shameful waste on those children's potential.

Doesnt matter who the parents are, what implant center is, and what age the child is implanted...

Shel, it does matter. you have no idea how much it does matter. If child has the right support and all the pieces of the puzzle are there, it would be very unlikely for that child not to have the success it can have with the implant.

the point is many children are being deprived of language when it DOESNT have to be that way since we have a visual language available which is sign language. I wont accept "trying" different methods to see which will work for each child and risking them to be more and more delayed and if u call me close minded then that means u are ok with that problem happening as long as it doesnt happen to your children, right?

Just as you care of the success of deaf children, I do also. I know you have seen the kids that haven't had that much success with the implant. I have seen not only my children but many children that have succeed with the implant if everything is in place but I understand you don't see these kids you only see the kids that are not successful. As time goes by, there will be more and more kids successing with the implant. We are learning more and more everyday so we know what is working and what is not.
I know many teenagers that were implant around the same time that my children were. There are about 20 teenagers and only 2 didn't have the success that the others did. One was because there were other issues and the other the parents didn't do what they were suppose it.
Then there are my students, I make sure my parents know what they are suppose to do. In the summer, I see my students once a week for therapy and to make sure my parents are doing what they are need to do. I am not getting paid for this time but I believe in what I do and will do whatever I need to see my students succeed. It is not easy process but it can and does happen.