District files appeal against deaf student

[jillio]

AMEN!!!! I was one of them. And I mean I remember reading somewhere that "ADD" is a very common dx for oral only dhh kids, but its a very rare dx in Signing deaf kids, and is rarely seen in schools for the deaf.
Jackie, yes sucide isn't limited to just one group. HOWEVER, the chief root of social problems can be boiled down to one cause........not fitting in with mainstream society. Oral skills give SOME access to the hearing world, but they do not and never will give 100% access to that world. Trying to make kids fit in with mainstream society just hasn't worked for the majority of kids. There are still enourmous social problems faced by minorities including oral only kids.
That is the downside that a lot of oral only advocates tend to gloss over. They tend to point at the high acheiving(high acheiving even for hearing kids) honors students, and say "gee look at these kids!"
They do not acknowledge the kids who are thought of as MR by hearies b/c of their voices, they do not acknowledge how hard "not fitting in" is, they do not acknowledge a ton of the downsides that are inherent in the oral only approach. And yes, I know your kid has done well, but there have ALWAYS been kids who do really well. It doesn't mean they represent the majority of kids.

Exactly. They look only at those who are comfortable to look at and sweep the others under the carpet. I find this practice to be wxtremely objectionable. They continue to propagate the disadvantages that they refuse to acknowledge based on their self centered need to promote their own limited and limiting philosophies.

 

[jillio]

Jillo, I have a question for you and I have asked this question before, could you please make sure you anwser it this time.

You say you hold me to higher standard because I am an educator, I understand that and I agree but my question is that Shel who is also an educator and has also been criticize for her grammar skills.

So why do you hold me to a higher standard and not Shel?

I think it is because I am an oral teacher of deaf. And remember I am a preschool teacher so I do not teach grammar skills. I do teach pre-writing skills like tracing and copying letters and words. My goal is for all of my students to be able to write their first and last name. Overall all my main focus with my students and what I spend the most time is developing oral language.

The difference between Shel and me is that she actually has to teach Writing and Grammar skills because for what I understand she teaches upper Elementary.

Don't get wrong I am sure that Shel is a great teacher at her school. I personally do not agree with everything Shel says but I can tell that she believes in what she does and that she would do whatever possible for her students to succeed in school just as I would, we just believe in different things.

Evidently, you are not reading through these posts completely, or are unable to comprehend what you are reading. First, I hold you to the same standards that I hold any educator. But the simple fact of the matter is, that you are adhering to, and promoting an oral philosophy, both personally and professionally. As such, you are limiting language exposure to one language, and this results in language deprivation for many, many deaf children. If you are going to limit yourself to spoken English only as your model, then you must insure that the model is one of excellence. If you don't, then you not only deprive these children of a linguistically rich environment, you create an environment that is also substandard.

And the person that criticised shel's grammar has since apologized. And quite frankly, shel makes far fewer errors that you do. And if you had been reading the posts, you would also understand that shel does not teach writing and grammar. What shel does, however, is attempt to bring up to appropriate level the children that have been delayed as a result of an oral environment. Shel also exposes her students, and her own children, to a bilingual environment in order to provide a linguistically rich environment.

And this repeated question, that has already been answered prior, is just another one of your attempts to divert the topic and bring everything back to you. God, jackie, do you not have the slightest grasp of the concept that this is not about you. It is about deaf education and deaf students and what can be done to improve overall literacy rates. Get over yourself.

 

[jillio]

I see what you are saying that kids who don't fit in do not feel part of the mainstream society so they have a higher chance of committing suicide.

Do you see that we are all different in one way or another? I did not fit in mainstream society when I was in high school because I was 50 to 75 pds heavier then I should have been, I worn thick glasses, and my mother looks like the typical Mexican woman. My sister and I took more after my father who was blond hair, tall, and light skin. My mother would stick out like sore thumb. We lived in mostly white neighborhoods, at times people would confused my mother for the cleaning lady. As a teenager although my mom spoke almost perfect English, she still had a heavy accent. I hate to admit it now but I was embarrassed of my mother when we were in public. I can tell you now that I am very proud of my mother and what she was able to do with 2 daughters in a country she did not know but as a teenagers I was at times completely embarrased.

We are all different in one way or another so assuming that just because a deaf child was raised orally is at a higher level for suicide is not accurate. Any teenager with any type of differences real or not real is at a higher level for committing suicide.

This is not about you, jackie. This is about deaf students and the injustices done to them. Get over your overweight adlolescence. And, please, show me the statistics that prove that inaccuracies. And exactly what is a "not real" difference?

 

[jillio]

From my experience working at that self contained deaf program in the public school in AZ, I saw that happening with the 8th grader boys. They got the messages from that deaf teacher who believed in the oral only method and used on all 13 deaf kids ..mind u, more than half of them dont have oral skills and rely on ASL so the older kids would act out cuz they couldnt understand her, they were isolated from their hearing peers, AND worse of all, they were placed in the same class for math and LA with kids way way way younger than them so of course, they acted out. Then the administrators, espeicially the school pychologist who HAD NO TRAINING in deafness, labeled them as having behavior disorders and their parents believed them. As a result, they got the message so they acted what was expected of them..with behavior problems. When I talked to them, they would chat and chat away with me and one of them cried asking why his mom put him in that school. It just broke my heart. That was about 9 years ago, I hope they are leading happy and successful lives and not on drugs or whatever from being stigmazed like that all their lives at the schools. It is just tooo f*&^^&^ed up.

Yeah, I know. Those of us who have been exposed to the real world have seen it over and over agian. But then, you know that our experience isn't valid, because, after all, you are only deaf, and I am jsut a parent who decided to raise her child in a bilingual environment, and exposure to the Deaf community. You have only devoted your life to trying to make up for the deficits in education that are still being created by the oral school of thought, and I am only a PhD candidate with degrees in psychology and counseling. Just because you have experienced these problems, and just because we have both seen them on a continual basis doesn't mean that we have any idea what we are talking about. (End of sarcasm).

 

[shel90]

With early identification there is no need to lose that many years of language. A child can be in oral program by the age of 6 months. Like I said I need a max of 2 years but usually in one year I will know. If a child was early identified and has been in a soild oral program, by the age of 2 1/2 years old we should know if a child will be able to be oral. You might think 2 1/2 years is too much time to waste but I do not. My daughter was not identified until the age of 2 and worn hearings aids at 2 1/2 years old. My son did not receive his implant until 3 years old and they are both doing great, reading at grade level. In life, we have to know what we want and be able to go for it. It is a risk but life is a risk. And this is a risk I was willing to take. You might be willing to take that risk but I am and many other parents are. Life is a risk, we just have to be able weigh pros and cons.

Yea, life is a risk and it is those deaf children's lives we are talking about here not about our lives. My life was already was messed up thanks to that "risk" my mom and the professionals took despite some signs or indirect messages I gave to them about the oral-only approach being too restrictive for me. Because my speech skills were great, that was the only focus they used to keep me in the most restrictive environment. Too often, many people out there ignore the little signs and take them as "passing phases" that the deaf chidlren will get over. Unfortunately, the scars stay with them for life and yes, that is a risk many people are willing to take with. That is why I want both approaches to be used immediately the children are diagnosed with deafness instead of just only one approach.

 

[jillio]

During the first 5 years of the deaf child's life, while the parents are finding the "right" method that is best for their child, time is lost for language development.

There you go. Wasting 5 years trying to make a child oral is lost language development, and that is exactly what is responsible for the educational problems we see. Why the hell would you wait 5 years before you start providing a linguistically rich environment for a deaf child?-

 

[jackiesolorzano]

You have said many, many times that a TC approach or a signing approach is only valuable if and when the oral method fails.

No I haven't. If a parent chooses either of these 2 options that is their choice. The only thing I would ask of whever choice a parent makes is to fully embrace it. What you are referring to is when parents choose the oral route and for whatever reason they need to switch over to the TC approach but I have never said that all parents of deaf children should choose the oral route. I have seen many successful kids that have strictly been in a TC envirnoment and have been very successful because the parents have fully embraced that route.

I don't know what century you are living in, but you cannot seem to supply any recent, valid research to back up that claim. You have not been around this forum, nor in enough topics, to have any idea what anyone's opinion (other than you, rick, and cloggy) is of me. To assume you do is just another example of your over inflated opinion of yourself.

And yes, when I see outdated and discriminatory philosophies being spouted out that have, in the past, and still continue to this day thanks to those individuals who will not look past thier own ethnocentric, limited viewpoint, harm deaf children, I get angry.

If anyone here is guilty of redirecting an issue by refusing to discuss the issue, and instead resorting to personal insults, whining about being picked on, and personal judgements based on too limited information, jackie, it is you. You have repeatedly complained that people are picking on you simply becasue they are able to offer refutation of your misperceptions. You have contradicted yourself in your posts, and when you have been called on it, you have resorted to name calling and attempts to intimidate through personal insult. Then, when we respond in kind, you want to throw it all back on us, when you are the one responsible for setting the tone.

I will not apologise because I have done nothing to apologise for. You are the one that came in here and insulted not only the students who attend deaf schools, but signing students, ASL based adults, committed and devoted educators who have taken the time and made the effort to investigate and compare all methods of education and arrived at reasonable conclusions, and the deaf community as a whole.

If you think you find me offensive, you can multiply that by ten and apply it to the way I feel about uninformed, predjudiced, ignorant educators that are still functioning under the disproven ideas of 50 years past.

You have never ever repsond to me in a kind manner. I am not sure what you are referring but you personally have never ever said a nice thing to me.

 

[jillio]

You have never ever repsond to me in a kind manner. I am not sure what you are referring but you personally have never ever said a nice thing to me.

Evidently you do not keep track of what you say. One of the things that both shel and I objected to was your posts where you stated that a child should always be started off in an oral environment and then only use a TC/signing environment if they could not develop oral language skills by the time they reach age 5 or 6.

I am not here to boost your ego, or to compliment you. I am here to make sure that the issues ar discussed appropriately, and that innacurate and harmful information is not allowed to proliferate. And, as I have pointed out on numerous accasions, this is not about YOU. It is about the education of deaf children. This is a concept that you are obviously unable to grasp.

 

[jillio]

Yea, life is a risk and it is those deaf children's lives we are talking about here not about our lives. My life was already was messed up thanks to that "risk" my mom and the professionals took despite some signs or indirect messages I gave to them about the oral-only approach being too restrictive for me. Because my speech skills were great, that was the only focus they used to keep me in the most restrictive environment. Too often, many people out there ignore the little signs and take them as "passing phases" that the deaf chidlren will get over. Unfortunately, the scars stay with them for life and yes, that is a risk many people are willing to take with. That is why I want both approaches to be used immediately the children are diagnosed with deafness instead of just only one approach.

She jsut does not get it shel. And its a waste of time and energy to keep trying to explain. That is the hallmark of an oralist.....they refuse to see the reality of the siutation becasue they are totally blinded by their own selfish need for their children to speak.

 

[shel90]

She jsut does not get it shel. And its a waste of time and energy to keep trying to explain. That is the hallmark of an oralist.....they refuse to see the reality of the siutation becasue they are totally blinded by their own selfish need for their children to speak.

Why is it ok for hearing kids to be put in an environment where language is fully accesible to them but not deaf children? Why cant people just accept that deaf children are visual learners cuz they need the time to learn how to process the sounds from their CIs, dont hear well enough with their HAs and speechreading..only get 30% of what is being said most of the time? Deaf children are different and have different needs from hearing children.

 

[pek1]

Why is it ok for hearing kids to be put in an environment where language is fully accesible to them but not deaf children? Why cant people just accept that deaf children are visual learners cuz they need the time to learn how to process the sounds from their CIs, dont hear well enough with their HAs and speechreading..only get 30% of what is being said most of the time? Deaf children are different and have different needs from hearing children.

Can I jump in here and tell you what I found out during lunch today? I met a family that knew me when I moved here in 2002 (Moorhead, Minnesota) and their grade school daughter is deaf. She cannot read lips very well and the schools are refusing to provide a certified interpreter for her. She appears intelligent to me, so that's not the problem. The problem is this girl needs help now and no one is willing to bend. Jackie, let me ask you this . . . pretend you and I are on a trip to another country, say, Sweden. I am fluent in it (I know a few words, really, but for this, I am fluent) and you don't know a single word. We are out shopping and we get separated. You panic and speak English to people who look at you funny and want to be helpful, but they can't because you don't speak Swedish. Finally, someone calls the police and you're arrested and thrown in jail (disorderly conduct) and still, everyone talks Swedish to you. You honestly don't know or even understand the language, but you try. Finally, I find you and you are beyond upset with me. Now, pretend you are a deaf child who is having someone speak to them. Can you hear them? Of course not, you're deaf. How can you even try to hear or even understand?

Sorry, I will have to concur with shel. She and I are close enough in age to be able to tell you horror stories in mainstream classes, probably her more than me. This isn't about weight, this is about being able to hear, or, in this case, not being able to hear. When push comes to shove, I will always side with the deaf/hoh because of my own experiences. The schools failed me. Fortuneately, I didn't commit suicide, but how are we going to reach these deaf/hoh kids when they can't hear or even relate to anything in class? Don't you think they have dreams for their lives, too?

You know, shel, again, for the record, since Jackie wasn't paying attention, I apologize to you for being hard on your for your grammar mistakes. I try not to spell incorrectly and put the cute messages on my avatar and signature. It is in fun only, not to offend anyone. I sometimes reword what someone is saying because I automatically correct it anyway when I read it.

Jackie, can you please do me a favor? You are obviously experienced in what you are doing. But, that experience (training, as well) cannot substitute for life experience that many, if not all of us, have experienced. You may need to learn how to rewrite the books that you learned all your information from.

 

[shel90]

Can I jump in here and tell you what I found out during lunch today? I met a family that knew me when I moved here in 2002 (Moorhead, Minnesota) and their grade school daughter is deaf. She cannot read lips very well and the schools are refusing to provide a certified interpreter for her. She appears intelligent to me, so that's not the problem. The problem is this girl needs help now and no one is willing to bend. Jackie, let me ask you this . . . pretend you and I are on a trip to another country, say, Sweden. I am fluent in it (I know a few words, really, but for this, I am fluent) and you don't know a single word. We are out shopping and we get separated. You panic and speak English to people who look at you funny and want to be helpful, but they can't because you don't speak Swedish. Finally, someone calls the police and you're arrested and thrown in jail (disorderly conduct) and still, everyone talks Swedish to you. You honestly don't know or even understand the language, but you try. Finally, I find you and you are beyond upset with me. Now, pretend you are a deaf child who is having someone speak to them. Can you hear them? Of course not, you're deaf. How can you even try to hear or even understand?

Sorry, I will have to concur with shel. She and I are close enough in age to be able to tell you horror stories in mainstream classes, probably her more than me. This isn't about weight, this is about being able to hear, or, in this case, not being able to hear. When push comes to shove, I will always side with the deaf/hoh because of my own experiences. The schools failed me. Fortuneately, I didn't commit suicide, but how are we going to reach these deaf/hoh kids when they can't hear or even relate to anything in class? Don't you think they have dreams for their lives, too?

You know, shel, again, for the record, since Jackie wasn't paying attention, I apologize to you for being hard on your for your grammar mistakes. I try not to spell incorrectly and put the cute messages on my avatar and signature. It is in fun only, not to offend anyone. I sometimes reword what someone is saying because I automatically correct it anyway when I read it.

Jackie, can you please do me a favor? You are obviously experienced in what you are doing. But, that experience (training, as well) cannot substitute for life experience that many, if not all of us, have experienced. You may need to learn how to rewrite the books that you learned all your information from.

Awww thanks but I have long forgotten the posts u made about my grammar mistakes and I did admit right away after u criticized me that I was not being careful with it here on AD. I dont hold a grudge for anyone who has criticized me and then apologized. Heck, I dont even hold a grudge to those who have been mean to me on AD cuz it is not my problem if they want to throw insults at me. I have nothing to feel guilty about and about 3 or 4 months ago, I did resort to name calling and I did apologize to those that my insults were directed at. I am able to move on and not bring it up again. Since u have apologized, I havent thought about it since then. If others want to bring it up, then it is their problem not ours. It was between us and we resolved it a while ago. LOL!

 

[jackiesolorzano]

and I want to add that...many deaf people rarely get to live the American dream u get to live in, Jackie, cuz they were deprived of language during their first years of their lives while their parents and educators are "trying" different methods that work best for them before finally resorting to putting them in an ASL environment. By that time, they have already passed the critical years of language development and as a result, unless they work extremely hard, they dont achieve the literacy skills to get the kinds of jobs to live that American Dream.

Jackie..u said, "Two years is all I need"...two years is a lot of time lost on language development if the children are not able to pick up on oral language and as a result, puts them at least 2 years behind their hearing counterparts.

Can u answer this question: Is that fair for the children?

I said 2 years is the max that I need, generally in one year I will know. My daughter was deprived language for 2 1/2 years because she was not part of early identification. She was not diagnosis until after she turn 2 and by time we fitted her with hearing aids, she was 2 1/2 years old. Sometimes in life we have to make sacrifices. I am so glad that we did take the oral route. It was right for us. I know it is not right for all children.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Believing that research is not superior to first hand experience in generalizability and validity for a population is exactly why you are so misinformed. This is evidenced in your post where you say "raised orally", and then say "some with sign". Which is ti rick? Oral or with sign? It can't be both. If a child is using sign, they are not oral. They may have oral skills, but they are not oral.

You are wrong Jillo not only do I have the personal experience but I also have the research, give a couple of days I will post it for you.

 

[jillio]

Can I jump in here and tell you what I found out during lunch today? I met a family that knew me when I moved here in 2002 (Moorhead, Minnesota) and their grade school daughter is deaf. She cannot read lips very well and the schools are refusing to provide a certified interpreter for her. She appears intelligent to me, so that's not the problem. The problem is this girl needs help now and no one is willing to bend. Jackie, let me ask you this . . . pretend you and I are on a trip to another country, say, Sweden. I am fluent in it (I know a few words, really, but for this, I am fluent) and you don't know a single word. We are out shopping and we get separated. You panic and speak English to people who look at you funny and want to be helpful, but they can't because you don't speak Swedish. Finally, someone calls the police and you're arrested and thrown in jail (disorderly conduct) and still, everyone talks Swedish to you. You honestly don't know or even understand the language, but you try. Finally, I find you and you are beyond upset with me. Now, pretend you are a deaf child who is having someone speak to them. Can you hear them? Of course not, you're deaf. How can you even try to hear or even understand?

Sorry, I will have to concur with shel. She and I are close enough in age to be able to tell you horror stories in mainstream classes, probably her more than me. This isn't about weight, this is about being able to hear, or, in this case, not being able to hear. When push comes to shove, I will always side with the deaf/hoh because of my own experiences. The schools failed me. Fortuneately, I didn't commit suicide, but how are we going to reach these deaf/hoh kids when they can't hear or even relate to anything in class? Don't you think they have dreams for their lives, too?

You know, shel, again, for the record, since Jackie wasn't paying attention, I apologize to you for being hard on your for your grammar mistakes. I try not to spell incorrectly and put the cute messages on my avatar and signature. It is in fun only, not to offend anyone. I sometimes reword what someone is saying because I automatically correct it anyway when I read it.

Jackie, can you please do me a favor? You are obviously experienced in what you are doing. But, that experience (training, as well) cannot substitute for life experience that many, if not all of us, have experienced. You may need to learn how to rewrite the books that you learned all your information from.

Very well said, Pete! And I appreciate your well meant attempt to bring a little reasonableness back to this discussion.

As for the child who is not getting a terp! That is exactly what I and shel have been talking about. That situation warrants my concern much more than a c hild that is already functioning well above the average level in high school. To deny a terp is truly denying equal access.

 

[jillio]

You are wrong Jillo not only do I have the personal experience but I also have the research, give a couple of days I will post it for you.

Jackie, I have spent the past 21 years doing extensive research into educational methods for the deaf, as well as initiating contact with many, many deaf individuals and actually paying attention to what they have to say regarding what they feel is necessary for their success. I am involved in my own research in cognitive and developmental psychology. I am certain I have read any study that you could possibly post regarding the oral method. And the personal experience of which you speak may be valuable for your purposes, but as it is limited to oral method of education and socialization, it is also extremely limited.

And, I am afraid I am not wrong. When it comes to genralization to an entire population, research is more valid than personal experience.

 

[rick48]

"Believing that research is not superior to first hand experience in generalizability and validity for a population is exactly why you are so misinformed..."

Sorry but my opinion that observing firsthand adults and children with cochlear implants in real life situations is indeed superior to most research and more useful to parents who are in the process of making the cochlear implant decision for their children is not being misinformed but rather placing a different weight on one of the factors parents should utilize when making the cochlear implant decision for there child. If I had said that research was of no value whatsoever, that is a different story but since I did not, your argument is not valid. Again, it always comes back to you thinking that you are right and that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.


"...This is evidenced in your post where you say "raised orally", and then say "some with sign". Which is ti rick? Oral or with sign? It can't be both. If a child is using sign, they are not oral. They may have oral skills, but they are not oral."

First, if you are going to quote me, please do so correctly. Since I do not agree with your position of mutual exclusivity regarding oral skills and signing skills, there is nothing for me to choose. Of course you can continue to argue that my firsthand personal observations of oral deaf kids who can sign is incorrect but since you were not there to actually observe these kids, there is not much validity to your position but go ahead and argue it till your heart's content. Its what you live for anyway.

Anyone for hackie sack?

"generalizability" is that actually a word?

 

[jillio]

"Believing that research is not superior to first hand experience in generalizability and validity for a population is exactly why you are so misinformed..."

Sorry but my opinion that observing firsthand adults and children with cochlear implants in real life situations is indeed superior to most research and more useful to parents who are in the process of making the cochlear implant decision for their children is not being misinformed but rather placing a different weight on one of the factors parents should utilize when making the cochlear implant decision for there child. If I had said that research was of no value whatsoever, that is a different story but since I did not, your argument is not valid. Again, it always comes back to you thinking that you are right and that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.


"...This is evidenced in your post where you say "raised orally", and then say "some with sign". Which is ti rick? Oral or with sign? It can't be both. If a child is using sign, they are not oral. They may have oral skills, but they are not oral."

First, if you are going to quote me, please do so correctly. Since I do not agree with your position of mutual exclusivity regarding oral skills and signing skills, there is nothing for me to choose. Of course you can continue to argue that my firsthand personal observations of oral deaf kids who can sign is incorrect but since you were not there to actually observe these kids, there is not much validity to your position but go ahead and argue it till your heart's content. Its what you live for anyway.

Anyone for hackie sack?

"generalizability" is that actually a word?

Yes, rick, generalizability is a word, and if you had even basic knowlege of research and how to interpret it, you wouldhave already encountered it numerous times. And I completely disagree. Oral is, in its definition, both implied and explicit, spoken language. An oral deaf individual relies solely on spoken language. If they encoporate sign, they are denoted "signers with oral skills".

And of course you would discount a solution that has proven success in both signing classroom and oral classroom, as well as several other applications. What about equal access rick? Remember that? But just as you discount the real life experience of the deaf adults that post here regarding their educational experiences, you discount solutions that also work for them. I guess that's because it is experience related to deafness and not to hearing. And you say that you are not ethnocentric.

 

[shel90]

You are wrong Jillo not only do I have the personal experience but I also have the research, give a couple of days I will post it for you.

U have the personal experience living life as a deaf person? U, Jillo, Rick, and Cloggy dont have that personal experience..Jillo already has admitted that she doesnt.

 

[jillio]

U have the personal experience living life as a deaf person? U, Jillo, Rick, and Cloggy dont have that personal experience..Jillo already has admitted that she doesnt.

You are correct, shel. I don't have that experience. And that is exactly why it is necessary for me to pay attention to what people who do have that experience tell me. The only way I can assist them in the ways that are helpful is to listen to what they have to say.