District files appeal against deaf student

[rockdrummer]

And if open honest discussion does not occur, changes will never be made, and the educaiton of the majority of deaf children will contiue to suffer.

Agreed but I wouldn't consider some of what I have read in this thread to be open honest discussion. I would consider it childish bickering, fingerpointing and name calling. To me that adds no value to any discussion. Also the fact that deafness has been around forever and there is still not an ojbective consensus concerns me. Or is it that maybe, just maybe there is no silver bullet due to the differences in each individual. Maybe one method works well for some and other methods work well for others. What I can tell you from my standpoint is that even though I have learned alot and researched this topic I am now more confused than ever.

 

[pek1]

Legal assistance is always needed. And it is unfortunate in this age of great technological advances like CI and CART, these problems are still so widespread. There are those that refuse to look at the ugly side of things because it is just too distressing for them. That is a side that I see, and that shel, sees on a daily basis. It is, unfortunately, reality, whether one chooses to admit it or not. And it its sad, indeed, that these are not problems that are inherent in deafness, but problems that are created by hearing society's attempt to make the deaf completely assimialte into their hearing world instead of listening to the deaf tell us what their needs are. If we refuse to learn from the experiences of the deaf individuals that have walked this road, we will continue to allow deaf shildren to become victims of the injustice and maltreatment that continues to this day in many mainstream settings.

The only thing I can think of right now is, what about the parents? Can they teach their kids how to be their own advocates? Can't the kids do something, too? I am reminded of an audiologist here at MSUM who told me, "Pete, you're gonna have to learn how to be your own advocate!" What about constantly badgering the people in schools to get help? What about threats to go to the news media when a child cannot get help? What about obtaining an attorney or obtaining help through a law school to help? (Yes, there are clinics at your local law school that can help you).

What about sit in's? Sit down and keep arms folded and refusing to leave until the student gets the help necessary? Doubtfully the police would get involved in this, as a service hasn't been provided and they would be reluctant to get involved lest they get sued. What about badgering the superintendent of the school district, finding out where she/he lives and picket (with proper permits, that is)? What about hammering a school district with so many lawsuits that it ties up the courts in that area? Media coverage galore? Letters to the editor. Opinion columns. Statistics. You know what I'm saying? Oh, and if the judge refuses to hear a case, file a lawsuit against him/her. In other words, bankrupt these people and don't let them have any rest until students are supplied with what they need.

 

[pek1]

Agreed but I wouldn't consider some of what I have read in this thread to be open honest discussion. I would consider it childish bickering, fingerpointing and name calling. To me that adds no value to any discussion. Also the fact that deafness has been around forever and there is still not an ojbective consensus concerns me. Or is it that maybe, just maybe there is no silver bullet due to the differences in each individual. Maybe one method works well for some and other methods work well for others. What I can tell you from my standpoint is that even though I have learned alot and researched this topic I am now more confused than ever.

Well, all I can come up with is that these bastards who are overpaid and underworked look at the ADA and say, "well, we're providing reasonable accomodations . . . what else do you want?" You're dealing with people who don't want to do anything except collect a paycheck and these people need to have the opportunity to go out and meet more people (unemploy them). Terminate their contracts. Hire a hit man . . . do something to get rid of them and get new blood in! By the way, don't take the hit man part seriously, alright? It was just a thought.

 

[Cloggy]

You are correct, as a parent it doesn't matter. However, as an educator, it does.

Interesting phrase out of the pen of an educator.... or aren't you??

What's your excuse for writing so crappy ??

 

[jag]

Jag if you google Aaron Steinfield and CART you find several links. Dr Steinfield did his doctoral thesis on CART in the classroom. He really is a wealth of information. If I remember correctly he is a professor in Michigan.

Thansk will do.

Oh and glad to hear that the school district wants to settle. Evidently your lawyer did a good job of putting together your case and the school doesn't think it would win. Hope it all goes well. You must of had some really good documentation. Did you tape the meetings? Just wondering I enjoy finding out what parents who succeed have done to document the IEP meetings.

 

[jag]

Well, all I can come up with is that these bastards who are overpaid and underworked look at the ADA and say, "well, we're providing reasonable accomodations . . . what else do you want?" You're dealing with people who don't want to do anything except collect a paycheck and these people need to have the opportunity to go out and meet more people (unemploy them). Terminate their contracts. Hire a hit man . . . do something to get rid of them and get new blood in! By the way, don't take the hit man part seriously, alright? It was just a thought.

One. Parents need to begin when their child is young to insist that their child's educational rights under the IEP are given/followed. To many parents trust based on the fact that they think the educators have the answers and really will follow through.

Two. Firing the educators is much harder once they achieve tenure. I've seen really great teachers really sluff off after getting tenure.

Really I think you could have found a different phrase then 'hiring a hitman' but whatever.

 

[jillio]

Agreed but I wouldn't consider some of what I have read in this thread to be open honest discussion. I would consider it childish bickering, fingerpointing and name calling. To me that adds no value to any discussion. Also the fact that deafness has been around forever and there is still not an ojbective consensus concerns me. Or is it that maybe, just maybe there is no silver bullet due to the differences in each individual. Maybe one method works well for some and other methods work well for others. What I can tell you from my standpoint is that even though I have learned alot and researched this topic I am now more confused than ever.

You are correct in that there is not one silver bullet. However, there are methods that have been proven empirically to work better for the majority of deaf children. And the oral method is not it.

And you are correct. The name calling needs to stop. But I don't see that happening anytime soon...at least not as long as people criticisms of the oral method to be a personal assault on their character and respond in a defensive and agressive manner. I will make every attempt to be more conscientious in my responses. However, when I am falsely accused of having attitudes that are contrary to what I truly believe, simply because I point out a con in an argument, it is extremely difficult not to respond in kind.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

No jackie, I am not an expert in oral education. However, I am an expert in the language deprivation and the social and emotional problems created by oral only education. I deal with them on a daily basis. And, I have extensive knowledge of the various methods, including oral, that are used in deaf education so that I am able to make an assessment based on comparative analysis. That is one of my main critcisms of the majority of oral teachers of the deaf. They do not have the knowledge necessary to make a comparative anaysis of all the methods, but simply rely on the limited information they have regarding oral only.

Frankly, I don't care whether you value my expertise or not. What is important to me is that the families and the students I work with value my expertise, and that my expertise allows me to do the best job possible for them. As long as I am providing a benefit for my students and their families, and are able to help them resolve the issues that are so very often created through the oral bias and ineffective education, not to mention societal prejudice, then I am effectively fulfilling my obligation to those individuals. Your appreciation is not necessary, nor even in my list of concerns.

Your English skills were criticised because, as an oral teacher of the deaf, and most particularly in the young age you work with, it is PARAMOUNT that you provide proper models of English in all its forms.

I understand what you are saying but did you read where the age group I work with I do not teach writing skills. I would never put myself in a sitution unless I knew that the skills I have help my students. I am sure you are aware where when someone learns a second language, writing is the hardest part. First is being able to use the language orally, then to be able to read it, and lastly is being able to write it. I can assure you that if you would meet me on the street you would have no idea that English is my 2nd language.

Errors in tense, confusing syntax, and improper word usage is not acceptable in an oral teacher of the deaf. It is too difficult for these children to develop oral skills in that environment in the best of circumstances, and someone who models improper English creates far less than the best of circumstance. And, if you ask for excellence in your students, you must be willing to acieve excellence yourself.

I have achieved excellence in my life and so have my children. I am so proud of myself for what I have been able to do with my life and I am even prouder of my children and students. I work in an area that is probable over 60% Hispanic. When my students' parents meet me and my children, they feel hope. We are living the American dream.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I appreciate the fact that you have realized your error, and that you have since made the apology. What I am concerned about, however, is that there are oral educators of the deaf that would make such a statement at all,

I guess I have to apologize again. I did not make myself clear. It was not an oral teacher of the Deaf that made this comment, it was a TC teacher and a program specialist that was a TC teacher they were the ones saying these comments. The particular student they were talking about was raised in a TC envirnoment. I have also heard parents used that word and say they would never send their TC child to the deaf school because there these types of students there.

whether it was in conversation to each other, or as a quote or reference. That attitude is unacceptable, and not only should those who originally made such a discriminatory statement been chastised at the time it was made, you should have never fiven it any validation by repeating it.

You are right I shouldn't have used that word, I should found a different word to describe what they said.

I do not tolerate racial humor. If a racially discriminatory joke is told in my presence, I speak up immediately and voice my feeling on the objectionable nature of such. And I do not repeat the joke under any circumstances.

I would never use these types of words in a joking manner. I was trying to tell ADers what people out in my area feel about the deaf schools. I would never use racial humor. I have heard many racial jokes growing up. Especially since my skin color is light people would make Hispanic jokes thinking I wasn't Hispanic. At times people would make jokes about my mom not knowing she was my mom because we do not look alike.

To do less is to allow stereotypes and prejudice to grow, and to give unspoken approval for anothers prejudiced attitude. The same h olds true for the situation of anyone making a statement regarding untrue and innacurate assessments of deaf children who attend schools for the deaf.

Again I never allowed this to happen. If it was my supervisior saying something, I would turn around and walk away. If it was co-workers I would speak up.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

**nodding agreement** And I might add, that we have many, many valid reasons for believing the way we do. Not simply personal experience, but knowlege gained from a comparative analysis of all methods, the pros and the cons, and a weighting of the consequences. We have seen the stated drawbacks of the oral only method, not just in one student, not just in 2 students, and not just from personal experience, but in many, many students.
Yet when we cite our reasons, valid as they may be, for believing such as we do, we are criticicized and called narrow minded by those who disagree. And when we provide numbers to back up our judgements, we are accused of picking on others. In short, our experience and knowlege is given zero credibility

[COLOR="Blue[COLOR="blue"]You are given zero credibility because when proved wrong you resort to making fun of our errors. I have seen you do this to cloggy and me. Why would we listen to someone so hostile? I have also seen many research articles proving that my method does work if done properly. As I mention many times, you can find almost always find a research article proving your point. [/COLOR][/COLOR]


simply beacuse it is in opposition to their view. We have both admitted that speech, speech skills, and CI can be very valuable tools in the education of deaf children. We have conceeded that point to their philosophies. However, they do not even have broadness enough of mind, or fluidity enough in assessment anything other than an oral approach has value.

When I have I ever said that anything other than an oral approach has value. I can find value in a TC approach or a stricly ASL approach. Any method has value as long as the parents support whatever method they choose for their child. With your hostility, you will never get through to parents. The only thing you will be able to do is shut them down.

Nor, even when faced with disprovable statistics, can they admit to the huge problem with language deprivation that occurs in the majority of deaf children of hearing parents is any cause for worry and concern.

None of them have been able to answer the question of what do do with the children who have been placed in an oral environment until they have been so deprived that difficulties have been created for them for that will affect their entire life. The concentration is always on what is fair for one child. What about the unfairness of the problems created for the many? What about the children whose needs aren't being met simply because of such strict adherence to one philospohy is more important that addressing the needs of the children? You want to talk about unfair and unjust? What the hell is fair about a child spending their entire school career

No one ever here has ever said that a child should sit through their entire school career in oral envirnoment. I just need 2 years max to know if a child will be able to be oral not their entire school career. 2 years out of lifetime is all I need.

sitting in a classroom feeling isolated and left out simply because some oralist has deemed spoken language to be the end all and be all? What is fair about the teenageer who is so insecure and socially maladapted that they believe that they are inferior to their hearing peers because that is the covert message they have been given all of their life? What is fair about the deaf teenager who spends time in the hospital for a suicide attempt because he has lost hope,

Suicide is not a problem that just occurs with deaf kids. Suicide is a serious problem that has such a higher rate with all teenagers

at that very young age, of ever being able to be like his hearing peers, and has never been given an example of a successful deaf individual on which to base his realistic dreams and aspirations? What is fair about the mainstreamed student who goes home every night and cries, because she is the only deaf student in her school, and no matter how hard she tries, her speech is still a bit difficult to understand and no one will take the time or make the effort to include them? There is nothing fair about any of that, and I have seen these things occur as a result of beiong planced in amainstream oral environment. Experiences such as these are a common thread in the experience of deaf people who have been placed in a mainstream oral environment. Language deprivation, and this type of social environment during childhood and adolescense has detrimental and wide reaching effects. Do I object to it. Yes, I do, and I will not apologize for my objections.

We all know you will never apologize because you are a very hostile person. You feel you are right and no else can be right unless they agree with you. I have seen you even turn parents off who are raising their child with signs only.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Agreed but I wouldn't consider some of what I have read in this thread to be open honest discussion. I would consider it childish bickering, fingerpointing and name calling. To me that adds no value to any discussion. Also the fact that deafness has been around forever and there is still not an ojbective consensus concerns me. Or is it that maybe, just maybe there is no silver bullet due to the differences in each individual. Maybe one method works well for some and other methods work well for others. What I can tell you from my standpoint is that even though I have learned alot and researched this topic I am now more confused than ever.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

The only thing I can think of right now is, what about the parents? Can they teach their kids how to be their own advocates? Can't the kids do something, too? I am reminded of an audiologist here at MSUM who told me, "Pete, you're gonna have to learn how to be your own advocate!" What about constantly badgering the people in schools to get help? What about threats to go to the news media when a child cannot get help? What about obtaining an attorney or obtaining help through a law school to help? (Yes, there are clinics at your local law school that can help you).

What about sit in's? Sit down and keep arms folded and refusing to leave until the student gets the help necessary? Doubtfully the police would get involved in this, as a service hasn't been provided and they would be reluctant to get involved lest they get sued. What about badgering the superintendent of the school district, finding out where she/he lives and picket (with proper permits, that is)? What about hammering a school district with so many lawsuits that it ties up the courts in that area? Media coverage galore? Letters to the editor. Opinion columns. Statistics. You know what I'm saying? Oh, and if the judge refuses to hear a case, file a lawsuit against him/her. In other words, bankrupt these people and don't let them have any rest until students are supplied with what they need.

You have a great idea here Pek. There is this program that is starting out here. These 2 ladys are interpeters and they have also started sort of a group for teenagers. They have monthly meetings. They have sort of a support group for these deaf teenagers. They also teach them how to advocate fo themselves. There is already a group out on the west side of LA and they are trying to start one out here on the east side. I am hoping the east side group gets started soon so my children can join.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Thansk will do.

Oh and glad to hear that the school district wants to settle. Evidently your lawyer did a good job of putting together your case and the school doesn't think it would win. Hope it all goes well. You must of had some really good documentation. Did you tape the meetings? Just wondering I enjoy finding out what parents who succeed have done to document the IEP meetings.

cartinfo.org and cart.ncraonline.org are really good web sites to find our more info on CART. Yes, during IEPs I do tape record. I am not sure if you are allowed to during the due process case. I didn't ask but the judge records everything.

Jag I would be more then happy to e-mail you a copy of the judge's order if you would like just pm your e-mail address.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

One. Parents need to begin when their child is young to insist that their child's educational rights under the IEP are given/followed. To many parents trust based on the fact that they think the educators have the answers and really will follow through.

I have seen this a lot too where parents just go with what the school says because they feel that the schools know more then they do. Although parents are the ones that know their child the best.

Two. Firing the educators is much harder once they achieve tenure. I've seen really great teachers really sluff off after getting tenure.

Really I think you could have found a different phrase then 'hiring a hitman' but whatever.

I have seen more where teachers getting close to retiring just giving up.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

You are correct in that there is not one silver bullet. However, there are methods that have been proven empirically to work better for the majority of deaf children. And the oral method is not it.

And you are correct. The name calling needs to stop. But I don't see that happening anytime soon...at least not as long as people criticisms of the oral method to be a personal assault on their character and respond in a defensive and agressive manner.

Jillo you have to admit you have attacked me and others. Just on my grammar skills that is an attack instead on focusing on what I am trying to say you focus on my errors.

I will make every attempt to be more conscientious in my responses. However, when I am falsely accused of having attitudes that are contrary to what I truly believe, simply because I point out a con in an argument, it is extremely difficult not to respond in kind.

Yes, your method had proven success just as the oral method as too.

 

[rick48]

And, if you ask for excellence in your students, you must be willing to acieve excellence yourself.

Guess you are not willing to ACHIEVE excellence yourself.

 

[rick48]

Agreed but I wouldn't consider some of what I have read in this thread to be open honest discussion. I would consider it childish bickering, fingerpointing and name calling. To me that adds no value to any discussion. Also the fact that deafness has been around forever and there is still not an ojbective consensus concerns me. Or is it that maybe, just maybe there is no silver bullet due to the differences in each individual. Maybe one method works well for some and other methods work well for others. What I can tell you from my standpoint is that even though I have learned alot and researched this topic I am now more confused than ever.

You hit the nail on the head, there are no silver bullets because all deaf children are different. The hard part is for you, as the parent, to stay on top of things and to closely monitor your child. No decision you make as to methodology should be set in concrete and you should always be open to change. No one method works for every child but if you find the best method for your child run with it. Its not an easy task but that's why we parents get paid the big bucks!
Rick

 

[rick48]

"I have also seen many research articles proving that my method does work if done properly. As I mention many times, you can find almost always find a research article proving your point."

So true on both counts!

Jackie would you mind citing or sending me some of the research you found? You can PM the information. While I find the research interesting, there is nothing that tops personal firsthand observations. I personally know many deaf kids with and without cis who have been raised orally (some just oral and some with sign), mainstreamed and who are attending and/or graduated very good top tier colleges, universities and grad schools.
Rick

 

[rick48]

Yes, your method had proven success just as the oral method as too.

Right and that is why it is so silly to maintain that there is only one method that should be used with every deaf child. Our goal should be to help parents find the method or methods that are best for their child.
Rick

 

[jackiesolorzano]

"I have also seen many research articles proving that my method does work if done properly. As I mention many times, you can find almost always find a research article proving your point."

So true on both counts!

Jackie would you mind citing or sending me some of the research you found? You can PM the information. While I find the research interesting, there is nothing that tops personal firsthand observations. I personally know many deaf kids with and without cis who have been raised orally (some just oral and some with sign), mainstreamed and who are attending and/or graduated very good top tier colleges, universities and grad schools.
Rick

Rick, no problem, give me a couple of days. My kids are going away on camp at the end of the week, so next week, I was planning to go through my garage anyway. I have all of my research from grad school in there. As soon as I put it out I will e-mail. Could you pm your e-mail address?
Jackie