District files appeal against deaf student

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Dear Friends,
I have been thinking about sharing some thoughts and explaining some things with all of you. At times, I was against the idea of sharing because I know how critical a lot of you have been of me and my way of life. But I have decided to go ahead and share because it will give you more insights and explain some things about me and then you can understand a bit more of why I believe in the things that I believe in.
As I said before, I am a first generation American. I have a younger sister and when we entered school we did not know a single word of English. Both of my parents had a good command of English but they felt that they should each teach us their native language and that the schools would teach us English. It was easier for me to learn English then it was for my sister. She had to repeat kindergarten. My mother was a teacher in Mexico. Although she had some college education she did not graduate. My father finished high school back in Hungary. My parents were very dedicated to us. My parents worked hard and were able to live the American dream. My father before he passed away would sit with us everyday and help us with our homework. He did not work the last 3 years of his life so his sole purpose was taking care of my sister and me. My father passed away when I was 9 years old. It was hard for my mother because she was a single parent in a country where she did not have any family members close by.
I haven’t wanted to admit this to you and I don’t admit it to a lot of people but you have been right, my writing skills are not good. I speak perfect English and almost perfect Spanish but when it comes down to my writing skills, they are not where most people who have a master’s degree are. I have to put a lot of focus on it and even focusing at times it is still very hard. I am so passionate about the topics we talk about here that I have not put the focus I would need to in order for my English to be at the standard it should be at. When I am posting things I am trying to get my thoughts across in a fast manner. Jillo has made fun of me using the wrong word. She is right I do use the wrong word at times. It is hard for me to sometimes think of the right word to say. I have several languages going on in my head. I usually get it right but I have been known to use the wrong word. Most of the time people are patient with me but on this site since I go against what most people think they sort to making fun of my skills. It is OK, if it makes you feel better to make fun of me more power to you. It is not going to change who I am, what I stand for, and what I do for a living.
It seems unfair to me that several people on this site criticize my English skills although I have noticed many other members including educators, their skills are also not where they should be. I wonder why I am being held to a higher standard, is it because I am an educator or an oralist. I strongly believe it is because I do not believe in some of the members’ philosophy. If I believed in your philosophy, I know you would not criticize my grammar skills. The times that you most criticize me is when you are wrong and instead of focusing on the issue you focus on my weak grammar skills. I think over 99% of the time you know what I am trying to say and I am not writing for my supervisors, students’ parents, or college professors so why should I focus and spend so much time on editing when I have seen almost everyone else on this site make grammar errors. Even if my grammar skills were good most of you would find some other reason to criticize me or make fun of me. It just seems unfair to me but maybe it makes you feel better that my grammar skills are not good. Maybe you think that proves your point. I do apologize for my weak grammar skills. I know that at times I get words mix up and what I am trying to say sometimes gets confused or when I use the wrong word it changes the meaning completely.
I do have the capacity of writing English in the correct form it just takes me a lot longer to get it in that format. I have to first write it, edit it then I have to leave it alone for awhile and go back and edit it. Honestly, it is not worth my time to go through this process because my time is limited and I know you will find some other reason to criticized me. In college, I did very well but my hardest class was college composition. I received my only C in that class and it was the class that I worked the hardest in. I love to read and read all the time so any class that the tests were based on readings, I received A’s. I also did overall well in short essays. It just when there were papers that I had to write it took more effort. For my Master’s project I work on it for 6 months. It was a lot of work but I did get an A on it. As you know there are many state tests that teachers have to take, I have taken them all and passed them on the first time. I know of many teachers that struggle with these tests but they are still amazing, caring, and wonderful teachers. We are all humans and make mistakes.
I know how you are thinking and you might just say that a teacher shouldn’t be teaching if they have my type of grammar skills. The only reason you are thinking this is because I am an oral teacher of the deaf, if I was a signing teacher and believed in your philosophy you wouldn’t be saying this. When I am writing a report or an IEP, my emotions are not as involved as they are when I am posting something on all deaf. When my emotions and beliefs are involved my grammars skills suffer even more. And if you truly are concern about my grammar skills don’t worry I teach preschool so I am not teaching grammar skills. I personally would never put myself in a position of teaching English/grammar skills to students because I know that is not my strength and I am not doing a service to those students. I have also always told my supervisors that my grammar skills are weak. My grammar skills have never been an issued in securing a contract. Since I do speak Spanish fluently my supervisor love having me on staff, being able to speak Spanish is such an amazing skill to have in southern California.
I have also been criticized about saying that someone needs to be in the home that speaks English if a child is to get an implant and they reside in the United States. From personal experience, I know how hard it is to learn English later on in life. I know you have your research papers but you can find a research paper to support almost any point of view. What I am talking about is personal experience both from a standpoint of learning English as a 2nd language and from raising 2 implanted oral deaf teenagers. Someone needs to be at home supporting the child with the language being taught at school. I was lucky my parents both spoke fluent English so when we came home with homework they were able to help us. And even with this help it was still very hard. How do you think a child with an implant is going to succeed with oral language if there is no one in the home to help support the child? Also this is where most of you have no personal experience in those beginning years of getting implant. Yes, you have your research papers but do you have the personal experience to know what needs to be in place in the beginning when the child is just implanted. I am not saying someone has to be fluent, I am just saying someone has to be willing to learn English with that child who has an implant. Yes, children with an implant can acquire language naturally but they have to have direct instruction also. It is a combination of things. I can understand where Jillo has to deal with college age kids that haven’t had much success with the implant or Shel, who has to deal with the kids that transfer from other programs, it is hard for them. The difference is I get to work with children as soon as they get implanted. I know what needs to be in place if a child is to have as much success as possible with the implant.
I have also been criticized for not exposing my children to the Deaf culture, more. I honestly could care less if you think I need to do more. We do what we feel comfortable with. We are not doing this to please anyone. Honestly, people like Jillo are the reasons why I am careful to what type of people in the Deaf culture I expose my children. I do what feels comfortable to me and my children.
What I ask of you instead of focusing on my bad grammar skills focus on what I am saying. I can assure you that I will try to focus more on my grammar but at times mistakes will happen especially when you are criticizing me or when I do not have the time to edit.
I also owe a big apology to Tousi. I was embarrassed. I did not want to admit my weakness because so many of you had already criticized me so much. I do think it was wrong and weak of Tousi to wait until he/she thought I was off the site to make the comments about my grammar skills. I am sorry to Tousi and to all of you for saying it was an experiment. It was not. It was me trying to hide my weakness.
Jackie,
Your post is heartwarming. I am sorry that you felt that you had to write it, as from my point of view, there was no need.
Someone's love for their child, someone'd knowledge and passion cannot be graded by their spelling.
And when you write ".... they are not where most people who have a master’s degree are. " I can only add that first - that is not a requirement at all, and second - that persons here having that or studying for it, make plenty of mistakes.

But I can identify in speaking a language but keeping not writing it perfectly.
My English writing will not be of the level compared to Dutch. My Norwegian writing actually is even terrible.....

Again, don't worry about the wrapping. It's the message that counts.
And you have a wonderful message to share.!!
Don't stop sending it out to the world !!
 
OKAY! ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!! As I mentioned to shel, I haven't been following this entire thread like the most of you, of which I highly doubt you people have been following it, either.

If I was a moderator, I already know who I'd censor and ban for a few days right now and you know what else? I am tired of having to read jackie saying how sorry she is to all of you.

Jackie, for my own comment to shel about you, I apologize for that. I now understand where you're coming from. For the attacks you've been receiving by people who should know better :slap::slap::slap: all educators have differences of opinions and it is fairly obvious to me that no one is respecting each other. This is one of the reasons that I didn't go into special education because I would have to deal with people while teaching that think they know it all and all I should do is bow down and kiss their butt. Well, I don't care what the union contract says, but that's not part of it!

As for the attorney part, I'm going to be one in a few years. I wonder if this situation and others in schools across the country are going to come down to teachers suing each other, claiming their method is better and the other teacher better change or else?


I have reasons for feeling the way I do about the oral-only approach. I am working with so many children who didnt succeed with that approach and then they finally develop language at the age of 7 or 8 or even older and it just makes me sick to my stomach. If it seems like I am not respecting others, so be it..my priorities are deaf children's needs. I am not gonna ever accept many deaf children being language delayed due to that one method.

I feel that the oral only approach is the most restrictive method of all based on my own personal and professional experiences.
 
But come on a hackysack, in a classroom.
Well it does work....One of my college classes used a hacksack. What about using one of those diving sticks? And you have not said whether or not your daughter's classroom set up, is traditional (students facing teacher) or more of a circle set up. That can REALLY help things Especially since preferntail seating isn't needed..........You really should be more openminded as to low tech solutions. Maybe if you tried it it would work for your kid.
Oh, and Jackie it doesn't matter how much potentional a kid with a disabilty has. All it matters is that if they are doing OK. God, its hard to get help for GUFTED kids............I know, since I was one of them (I still have no clue how I even got educated........I'm hoh, LD, gifted) Trust me.........school admins only care if they are doing fine.
Jackie, with your language sitution I still can't believe that you're not more pro ASL as a tool. Isn't it better to be bilingal then it is to be monolingal? ASL is a real language. Its not just a "speshal needs" crutch.
 
Dear Friends,
I have been thinking about sharing some thoughts and explaining some things with all of you. At times, I was against the idea of sharing because I know how critical a lot of you have been of me and my way of life. But I have decided to go ahead and share because it will give you more insights and explain some things about me and then you can understand a bit more of why I believe in the things that I believe in.
As I said before, I am a first generation American. I have a younger sister and when we entered school we did not know a single word of English. Both of my parents had a good command of English but they felt that they should each teach us their native language and that the schools would teach us English. It was easier for me to learn English then it was for my sister. She had to repeat kindergarten. My mother was a teacher in Mexico. Although she had some college education she did not graduate. My father finished high school back in Hungary. My parents were very dedicated to us. My parents worked hard and were able to live the American dream. My father before he passed away would sit with us everyday and help us with our homework. He did not work the last 3 years of his life so his sole purpose was taking care of my sister and me. My father passed away when I was 9 years old. It was hard for my mother because she was a single parent in a country where she did not have any family members close by.
I haven’t wanted to admit this to you and I don’t admit it to a lot of people but you have been right, my writing skills are not good. I speak perfect English and almost perfect Spanish but when it comes down to my writing skills, they are not where most people who have a master’s degree are. I have to put a lot of focus on it and even focusing at times it is still very hard. I am so passionate about the topics we talk about here that I have not put the focus I would need to in order for my English to be at the standard it should be at. When I am posting things I am trying to get my thoughts across in a fast manner. Jillo has made fun of me using the wrong word. She is right I do use the wrong word at times. It is hard for me to sometimes think of the right word to say. I have several languages going on in my head. I usually get it right but I have been known to use the wrong word. Most of the time people are patient with me but on this site since I go against what most people think they sort to making fun of my skills. It is OK, if it makes you feel better to make fun of me more power to you. It is not going to change who I am, what I stand for, and what I do for a living.
It seems unfair to me that several people on this site criticize my English skills although I have noticed many other members including educators, their skills are also not where they should be. I wonder why I am being held to a higher standard, is it because I am an educator or an oralist. I strongly believe it is because I do not believe in some of the members’ philosophy. If I believed in your philosophy, I know you would not criticize my grammar skills. The times that you most criticize me is when you are wrong and instead of focusing on the issue you focus on my weak grammar skills. I think over 99% of the time you know what I am trying to say and I am not writing for my supervisors, students’ parents, or college professors so why should I focus and spend so much time on editing when I have seen almost everyone else on this site make grammar errors. Even if my grammar skills were good most of you would find some other reason to criticize me or make fun of me. It just seems unfair to me but maybe it makes you feel better that my grammar skills are not good. Maybe you think that proves your point. I do apologize for my weak grammar skills. I know that at times I get words mix up and what I am trying to say sometimes gets confused or when I use the wrong word it changes the meaning completely.
I do have the capacity of writing English in the correct form it just takes me a lot longer to get it in that format. I have to first write it, edit it then I have to leave it alone for awhile and go back and edit it. Honestly, it is not worth my time to go through this process because my time is limited and I know you will find some other reason to criticized me. In college, I did very well but my hardest class was college composition. I received my only C in that class and it was the class that I worked the hardest in. I love to read and read all the time so any class that the tests were based on readings, I received A’s. I also did overall well in short essays. It just when there were papers that I had to write it took more effort. For my Master’s project I work on it for 6 months. It was a lot of work but I did get an A on it. As you know there are many state tests that teachers have to take, I have taken them all and passed them on the first time. I know of many teachers that struggle with these tests but they are still amazing, caring, and wonderful teachers. We are all humans and make mistakes.
I know how you are thinking and you might just say that a teacher shouldn’t be teaching if they have my type of grammar skills. The only reason you are thinking this is because I am an oral teacher of the deaf, if I was a signing teacher and believed in your philosophy you wouldn’t be saying this. When I am writing a report or an IEP, my emotions are not as involved as they are when I am posting something on all deaf. When my emotions and beliefs are involved my grammars skills suffer even more. And if you truly are concern about my grammar skills don’t worry I teach preschool so I am not teaching grammar skills. I personally would never put myself in a position of teaching English/grammar skills to students because I know that is not my strength and I am not doing a service to those students. I have also always told my supervisors that my grammar skills are weak. My grammar skills have never been an issued in securing a contract. Since I do speak Spanish fluently my supervisor love having me on staff, being able to speak Spanish is such an amazing skill to have in southern California.
I have also been criticized about saying that someone needs to be in the home that speaks English if a child is to get an implant and they reside in the United States. From personal experience, I know how hard it is to learn English later on in life. I know you have your research papers but you can find a research paper to support almost any point of view. What I am talking about is personal experience both from a standpoint of learning English as a 2nd language and from raising 2 implanted oral deaf teenagers. Someone needs to be at home supporting the child with the language being taught at school. I was lucky my parents both spoke fluent English so when we came home with homework they were able to help us. And even with this help it was still very hard. How do you think a child with an implant is going to succeed with oral language if there is no one in the home to help support the child? Also this is where most of you have no personal experience in those beginning years of getting implant. Yes, you have your research papers but do you have the personal experience to know what needs to be in place in the beginning when the child is just implanted. I am not saying someone has to be fluent, I am just saying someone has to be willing to learn English with that child who has an implant. Yes, children with an implant can acquire language naturally but they have to have direct instruction also. It is a combination of things. I can understand where Jillo has to deal with college age kids that haven’t had much success with the implant or Shel, who has to deal with the kids that transfer from other programs, it is hard for them. The difference is I get to work with children as soon as they get implanted. I know what needs to be in place if a child is to have as much success as possible with the implant.
I have also been criticized for not exposing my children to the Deaf culture, more. I honestly could care less if you think I need to do more. We do what we feel comfortable with. We are not doing this to please anyone. Honestly, people like Jillo are the reasons why I am careful to what type of people in the Deaf culture I expose my children. I do what feels comfortable to me and my children.
What I ask of you instead of focusing on my bad grammar skills focus on what I am saying. I can assure you that I will try to focus more on my grammar but at times mistakes will happen especially when you are criticizing me or when I do not have the time to edit.
I also owe a big apology to Tousi. I was embarrassed. I did not want to admit my weakness because so many of you had already criticized me so much. I do think it was wrong and weak of Tousi to wait until he/she thought I was off the site to make the comments about my grammar skills. I am sorry to Tousi and to all of you for saying it was an experiment. It was not. It was me trying to hide my weakness.

Jackie,

I cannot imagine how difficult it must have been for you to write your heartwarming and very genuine post about your struggles with written language. Just so you know its a shame the way you have been treated on this forum especially by one person in particular and from where I stand you did not have to explain yourself or to apologize to anyone.

I feel I know you so much better after your post and it further confirms the high opinion I have of you as a mother and an advocate for your children. Your children are truly blessed to have you as a mother and all the deaf children in your SD will benefit from the stand you took.

Many of us are very proud of you and what you have accomplished.
Rick
PS I agree with you about the hackie sacks!
 
I have reasons for feeling the way I do about the oral-only approach. I am working with so many children who didnt succeed with that approach and then they finally develop language at the age of 7 or 8 or even older and it just makes me sick to my stomach. If it seems like I am not respecting others, so be it..my priorities are deaf children's needs. I am not gonna ever accept many deaf children being language delayed due to that one method.

I feel that the oral only approach is the most restrictive method of all based on my own personal and professional experiences.

I'm well aware of that, shel. But you also need to understand that if you were in a room with a bunch of other educators like yourself, the police would not be able to control the crowd or stop all the fistfights.

A few years ago, while living in Rochester, Minnesota, a family with a 13-year old deaf boy (actually he was just as hoh as I am) had befriended me. His mom and I have talked a good many times and that the dad doesn't want Steve to return to MSAD, but that she and the boy do. The boy has said that there are two deaf kids: the other dead kid gets the interpreter to sign to him and the interp turns her back to him; when she speaks to him, she is verbal and refuses to sign. I asked the mom why the hostility and she said she didn't know. I then said, "the public schools are STILL going at it?" She knew what I meant and said "yes." She was totally exasperated with them. Can you blame her? The boy can speak and sign, so I don't know what the big deal was, except the school didn't want him to sign, which I think is bad. I think he should be able to do both.
 
I'm well aware of that, shel. But you also need to understand that if you were in a room with a bunch of other educators like yourself, the police would not be able to control the crowd or stop all the fistfights.

A few years ago, while living in Rochester, Minnesota, a family with a 13-year old deaf boy (actually he was just as hoh as I am) had befriended me. His mom and I have talked a good many times and that the dad doesn't want Steve to return to MSAD, but that she and the boy do. The boy has said that there are two deaf kids: the other dead kid gets the interpreter to sign to him and the interp turns her back to him; when she speaks to him, she is verbal and refuses to sign. I asked the mom why the hostility and she said she didn't know. I then said, "the public schools are STILL going at it?" She knew what I meant and said "yes." She was totally exasperated with them. Can you blame her? The boy can speak and sign, so I don't know what the big deal was, except the school didn't want him to sign, which I think is bad. I think he should be able to do both.

I agree, I think he should be able to do both. I did express wanting to learn to sign but the oral deaf educators that worked with me in the public schools told me that I was too smart for it and dont need it. As a result, that created this illusion of signing for deaf people who werent intelligent. Oh well.

I have been in hostile environments and I have very good self control. :giggle:
 
What a bleak picture all of this bickering about methods paints for deaf children. It really saddens me and doesn't offer alot of hope for me in the education of my deaf child.
 
What a bleak picture all of this bickering about methods paints for deaf children. It really saddens me and doesn't offer alot of hope for me in the education of my deaf child.

Sorry u feel that way.
 
Fine if she is repeating what others are saying about deaf children who go to deaf schools then why call them "bad" in that one post without clarification that it was not her wording? That really pissed me off big time cuz that is a personal insult to me since my brother attended the deaf school all his life because he couldnt make it in the public schools. Matter of fact, he is studying for his Master's at a hearing college so Jackie and whoever she works with need to get a good dose of reality about the children who attend the deaf schools and start respecting them too. Just like there are children in the public schools who have academic problems or behavioral problems (Columbine anyone?) just like some kids at the deaf schools too but that doesnt mean all of them are "bad"!!! If u want to excuse her for saying that, fine with me but in my eyes, there is no excuse for that especially coming from an educator of deaf children. People with that view have done a lot of harm to numerous of deaf children by not having faith in them. Of course, the kids pick up on that and give up on learning. Why bother if the public views u as "bad"?


GREAT POST! And, many deaf children in the mainstream who are judged to have "bhavior problems" are actually problems in behavior created through lack of communication and needs not being met in the classtoom. Change the environment, ie transfer to a school for the deaf where their needs are met, and surprise! The problems in behavior disappear! They do not have "behavior problems" in the clinical diagnosable sense, but rather promblems in behavior that are created in the mainstream and their attempts to adapt. And it extremely umjust to label these kids as behavior problems, because not only is it untrue in the vast majority of cases, the label sticks and creates additional stigma throughout their academic career.
 
Don't worry about my emotional tirades in court. I can handle myself in a court situation but thank you for your concern. I don't value your expertise because you are not an expert in oral education.

No jackie, I am not an expert in oral education. However, I am an expert in the language deprivation and the social and emotional problems created by oral only education. I deal with them on a daily basis. And, I have extensive knowledge of the various methods, including oral, that are used in deaf education so that I am able to make an assessment based on comparative analysis. That is one of my main critcisms of the majority of oral teachers of the deaf. They do not have the knowledge necessary to make a comparative anaysis of all the methods, but simply rely on the limited information they have regarding oral only.

Frankly, I don't care whether you value my expertise or not. What is important to me is that the families and the students I work with value my expertise, and that my expertise allows me to do the best job possible for them. As long as I am providing a benefit for my students and their families, and are able to help them resolve the issues that are so very often created through the oral bias and ineffective education, not to mention societal prejudice, then I am effectively fulfilling my obligation to those individuals. Your appreciation is not necessary, nor even in my list of concerns.

Your English skills were criticised because, as an oral teacher of the deaf, and most particularly in the young age you work with, it is PARAMOUNT that you provide proper models of English in all its forms. Errors in tense, confusing syntax, and improper word usage is not acceptable in an oral teacher of the deaf. It is too difficult for these children to develop oral skills in that environment in the best of circumstances, and someone who models improper English creates far less than the best of circumstance. And, if you ask for excellence in your students, you must be willing to acieve excellence yourself.
 
It is not my view, it is the view of some people but it was my fault for repeating the word. I am really sorry.

I appreciate the fact that you have realized your error, and that you have since made the apology. What I am concerned about, however, is that there are oral educators of the deaf that would make such a statement at all, whether it was in conversation to each other, or as a quote or reference. That attitude is unacceptable, and not only should those who originally made such a discriminatory statement been chastised at the time it was made, you should have never fiven it any validation by repeating it.

I do not tolerate racial humor. If a racially discriminatory joke is told in my presence, I speak up immediately and voice my feeling on the objectionable nature of such. And I do not repeat the joke under any circumstances. To do less is to allow stereotypes and prejudice to grow, and to give unspoken approval for anothers prejudiced attitude. The same h olds true for the situation of anyone making a statement regarding untrue and innacurate assessments of deaf children who attend schools for the deaf.
 
Jackie,
Your post is heartwarming. I am sorry that you felt that you had to write it, as from my point of view, there was no need.
Someone's love for their child, someone'd knowledge and passion cannot be graded by their spelling.
And when you write ".... they are not where most people who have a master’s degree are. " I can only add that first - that is not a requirement at all, and second - that persons here having that or studying for it, make plenty of mistakes.

But I can identify in speaking a language but keeping not writing it perfectly.
My English writing will not be of the level compared to Dutch. My Norwegian writing actually is even terrible.....

Again, don't worry about the wrapping. It's the message that counts.
And you have a wonderful message to share.!!
Don't stop sending it out to the world !!

You are correct, as a parent it doesn't matter. However, as an educator, it does.
 
I agree, I think he should be able to do both. I did express wanting to learn to sign but the oral deaf educators that worked with me in the public schools told me that I was too smart for it and don't need it. As a result, that created this illusion of signing for deaf people who weren't intelligent. Oh well.

I have been in hostile environments and I have very good self control. :giggle:

Well, why didn't they just tell you that they were going to bring you to the hospital and make you so that you wouldn't be able to have children?! Why not round up all the deaf people, especially on alldeaf.com and do that? You know I'm being facetious, but I read your statement the first time and I was highly offended.

Something else I want you to know . . . do you know why, at my age, I'm still in college and haven't finished yet? Never mind the fact that I had been in the ministry for 18 years as a lay person, but I never had anyone help me like totally deaf people do. My first college, I had to sit in the back of class rooms. There was a gal who was deaf and she got all the help she wanted, but yet, I couldn't get it. It's no wonder, when I think about it, makes me mad. I'm not mad right now, but now that we have the ADA, schools have to comply or they'd better get their checkbooks ready. I take full advantage of disability services, note takers, the whole nine yards. I'm meeting with the disabilities coordinator next Monday afternoon to set up my classes and I am requesting CART instead of note takers.

Another thing, while I'm on my soapbox . . . the rest of the deaf people (notice I didn't mention Deaf community) had better get with the program and start doing things to make them look intelligent and smart, because a whole lot that I'm seeing here, makes me shudder. I dated a gal a few years ago that was just as deaf as me and she told me that when she is out with her deaf friends, they make her order for them at restaurants because she is oral. I told her that is a no no and not to do it. If deaf people want to go out, that's fine, but they need to know how to communicate what they need and want, none of this baloney of not being able to communicate! These people make the rest of us look like idiots! When Heath was here (he's totally deaf), he not only has a hearing dog, but has absolutely no problem functioning in society, despite being totally deaf. Wish he was still here, knock some sense into some of these people around here.

<<climbing off soapbox>>
 
I have reasons for feeling the way I do about the oral-only approach. I am working with so many children who didnt succeed with that approach and then they finally develop language at the age of 7 or 8 or even older and it just makes me sick to my stomach. If it seems like I am not respecting others, so be it..my priorities are deaf children's needs. I am not gonna ever accept many deaf children being language delayed due to that one method.

I feel that the oral only approach is the most restrictive method of all based on my own personal and professional experiences.

**nodding agreement** And I might add, that we have many, many valid reasons for believing the way we do. Not simply personal experience, but knowlege gained from a comparative analysis of all methods, the pros and the cons, and a weighting of the consequences. We have seen the stated drawbacks of the oral only method, not just in one student, not just in 2 students, and not just from personal experience, but in many, many students.
Yet when we cite our reasons, valid as they may be, for believing such as we do, we are criticicized and called narrow minded by those who disagree. And when we provide numbers to back up our judgements, we are accused of picking on others. In short, our experience and knowlege is given zero credibility simply beacuse it is in opposition to their view. We have both admitted that speech, speech skills, and CI can be very valuable tools in the education of deaf children. We have conceeded that point to their philosophies. However, they do not even have broadness enough of mind, or fluidity enough in assessment anything other than an oral approach has value. Nor, even when faced with disprovable statistics, can they admit to the huge problem with language deprivation that occurs in the majority of deaf children of hearing parents is any cause for worry and concern. None of them have been able to answer the question of what do do with the children who have been placed in an oral environment until they have been so deprived that difficulties have been created for them for that will affect their entire life. The concentration is always on what is fair for one child. What about the unfairness of the problems created for the many? What about the children whose needs aren't being met simply because of such strict adherence to one philospohy is more important that addressing the needs of the children? You want to talk about unfair and unjust? What the hell is fair about a child spending their entire school career sitting in a classroom feeling isolated and left out simply because some oralist has deemed spoken language to be the end all and be all? What is fair about the teenageer who is so insecure and socially maladapted that they believe that they are inferior to their hearing peers because that is the covert message they have been given all of their life? What is fair about the deaf teenager who spends time in the hospital for a suicide attempt because he has lost hope, at that very young age, of ever being able to be like his hearing peers, and has never been given an example of a successful deaf individual on which to base his realistic dreams and aspirations? What is fair about the mainstreamed student who goes home every night and cries, because she is the only deaf student in her school, and no matter how hard she tries, her speech is still a bit difficult to understand and no one will take the time or make the effort to include them? There is nothing fair about any of that, and I have seen these things occur as a result of beiong planced in amainstream oral environment. Experiences such as these are a common thread in the experience of deaf people who have been placed in a mainstream oral environment. Language deprivation, and this type of social environment during childhood and adolescense has detrimental and wide reaching effects. Do I object to it. Yes, I do, and I will not apologize for my objections.
 
**nodding agreement** And I might add, that we have many, many valid reasons for believing the way we do. Not simply personal experience, but knowlege gained from a comparative analysis of all methods, the pros and the cons, and a weighting of the consequences. We have seen the stated drawbacks of the oral only method, not just in one student, not just in 2 students, and not just from personal experience, but in many, many students.
Yet when we cite our reasons, valid as they may be, for believing such as we do, we are criticicized and called narrow minded by those who disagree. And when we provide numbers to back up our judgements, we are accused of picking on others. In short, our experience and knowlege is given zero credibility simply beacuse it is in opposition to their view. We have both admitted that speech, speech skills, and CI can be very valuable tools in the education of deaf children. We have conceeded that point to their philosophies. However, they do not even have broadness enough of mind, or fluidity enough in assessment anything other than an oral approach has value. Nor, even when faced with disprovable statistics, can they admit to the huge problem with language deprivation that occurs in the majority of deaf children of hearing parents is any cause for worry and concern. None of them have been able to answer the question of what do do with the children who have been placed in an oral environment until they have been so deprived that difficulties have been created for them for that will affect their entire life. The concentration is always on what is fair for one child. What about the unfairness of the problems created for the many? What about the children whose needs aren't being met simply because of such strict adherence to one philospohy is more important that addressing the needs of the children? You want to talk about unfair and unjust? What the hell is fair about a child spending their entire school career sitting in a classroom feeling isolated and left out simply because some oralist has deemed spoken language to be the end all and be all? What is fair about the teenageer who is so insecure and socially maladapted that they believe that they are inferior to their hearing peers because that is the covert message they have been given all of their life? What is fair about the deaf teenager who spends time in the hospital for a suicide attempt because he has lost hope, at that very young age, of ever being able to be like his hearing peers, and has never been given an example of a successful deaf individual on which to base his realistic dreams and aspirations? What is fair about the mainstreamed student who goes home every night and cries, because she is the only deaf student in her school, and no matter how hard she tries, her speech is still a bit difficult to understand and no one will take the time or make the effort to include them? There is nothing fair about any of that, and I have seen these things occur as a result of beiong planced in amainstream oral environment. Experiences such as these are a common thread in the experience of deaf people who have been placed in a mainstream oral environment. Language deprivation, and this type of social environment during childhood and adolescense has detrimental and wide reaching effects. Do I object to it. Yes, I do, and I will not apologize for my objections.

This makes me so sick and mad that I can't contain myself right now.

Ok, since these people want to be mean and disagree with you, jillio, when I become an attorney, can I be called on to get help for these deaf kids? Suicide attempt all because a student is not able to hear and can't get help. These kids need help. Hopefully, things can improve to save them!
 
Well, why didn't they just tell you that they were going to bring you to the hospital and make you so that you wouldn't be able to have children?! Why not round up all the deaf people, especially on alldeaf.com and do that? You know I'm being facetious, but I read your statement the first time and I was highly offended.

Something else I want you to know . . . do you know why, at my age, I'm still in college and haven't finished yet? Never mind the fact that I had been in the ministry for 18 years as a lay person, but I never had anyone help me like totally deaf people do. My first college, I had to sit in the back of class rooms. There was a gal who was deaf and she got all the help she wanted, but yet, I couldn't get it. It's no wonder, when I think about it, makes me mad. I'm not mad right now, but now that we have the ADA, schools have to comply or they'd better get their checkbooks ready. I take full advantage of disability services, note takers, the whole nine yards. I'm meeting with the disabilities coordinator next Monday afternoon to set up my classes and I am requesting CART instead of note takers.

Another thing, while I'm on my soapbox . . . the rest of the deaf people (notice I didn't mention Deaf community) had better get with the program and start doing things to make them look intelligent and smart, because a whole lot that I'm seeing here, makes me shudder. I dated a gal a few years ago that was just as deaf as me and she told me that when she is out with her deaf friends, they make her order for them at restaurants because she is oral. I told her that is a no no and not to do it. If deaf people want to go out, that's fine, but they need to know how to communicate what they need and want, none of this baloney of not being able to communicate! These people make the rest of us look like idiots! When Heath was here (he's totally deaf), he not only has a hearing dog, but has absolutely no problem functioning in society, despite being totally deaf. Wish he was still here, knock some sense into some of these people around here.

<<climbing off soapbox>>
I'm sorry but I disagree about Heath. He is nothing more than a racist regardless of how well he can function in society as a deaf person. Please pick a better example.
 
We do have all the standard accommdations such as setting closest to the teacher making sure her better hearing ear is towards the teachers. But come on a hackysack, in a classroom.

It is a well respected technique for adding a visual component when there are numerous speakers and quick changes in the person speaking. It is used in deaf education setting, in group therapy sessions, and in business meeting requiring members input in a spontaneous way. I'm surprised that you never saw it being used in one of your oabservations of deaf education. Perhaps you and rick don't think that the technique is technologically advanced enough for youto afford it any credibility, but it successfully accomplishes the goal of alerting the deaf individual to changes in speaker so that they are able to focus their attention appropriately. Deaf students don't miss those questions coming from behind them, because they have been alerted to the change in speaker. Having the hackie sack toosed prior to beginning to speak means that half a question has not come out of someone's mouth before they have been able to turn and focus their attention. I really don't know why you would object to something that works to include the deaf person in the conversation. whether it be in a classroom, a meeting, or a therapy session. The hearing person receives the auditory information of a speaker without haveing to focus visually, and therefore do not need to be alerted prior to a change in speaker. However, deaf individuals need to be alerted prior to the speaking in order to avoid missing anything. As you have already cited one of the problems with your daughter's educational environment was that she missed the input of students sitting behind her, I would think that you of all people could see the value in such a technique.
 
What a bleak picture all of this bickering about methods paints for deaf children. It really saddens me and doesn't offer alot of hope for me in the education of my deaf child.

And if open honest discussion does not occur, changes will never be made, and the educaiton of the majority of deaf children will contiue to suffer.
 
This makes me so sick and mad that I can't contain myself right now.

Ok, since these people want to be mean and disagree with you, jillio, when I become an attorney, can I be called on to get help for these deaf kids? Suicide attempt all because a student is not able to hear and can't get help. These kids need help. Hopefully, things can improve to save them!

Legal assistance is always needed. And it is unfortunate in this age of great technological advances like CI and CART, these problems are still so widespread. There are those that refuse to look at the ugly side of things because it is just too distressing for them. That is a side that I see, and that shel, sees on a daily basis. It is, unfortunately, reality, whether one chooses to admit it or not. And it its sad, indeed, that these are not problems that are inherent in deafness, but problems that are created by hearing society's attempt to make the deaf completely assimialte into their hearing world instead of listening to the deaf tell us what their needs are. If we refuse to learn from the experiences of the deaf individuals that have walked this road, we will continue to allow deaf shildren to become victims of the injustice and maltreatment that continues to this day in many mainstream settings.
 
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