District files appeal against deaf student

[deafdyke]

The technique of using the hacki sack ball in business meetingws and deaf classrooms is one that has been used effectively for many years.

Yes, it was used in one of my college classes. I went to a HEARING college BTW. It's a VERY simple low tech solution, that could be just as good as CART.

If a child has the potential and ability to be an A plus student, then the IEP should be geared towards that.

But the IEP is not supposed to be used that way. You are arguing that Jackie's daughter is being kept back from acheiving b/c she misses stuff in the classroom. You're saying that she's essentailly being kept at average functioning...but if she was just an average student she would just be getting C's. Instead she is getting Bs and As!

 

[jillio]

IEP stands for Individualized Education Program. The IEP is "a program devised to satify IDEA's requirement that students with disabilities must receive an educational program based on multidisciplinary assessment and designed to meet their individual needs. The IEP must include consideration of the student's present level of performance, the program's annual goals, short-term instructional objectives or benchmarks, related services, percent of time in general education, timeline for special education services, and an annual evaluation." The IEP meeting should be a cooperation between the parents and the school district.

Thanks, SCJSue.....there's the key phrase: must consider the students present level of functioning. And in the case of jackie's daughter, her high functioning means that additional services will not be written into the IEP.

 

[jillio]

My 17 yrs of experience have basically shown that the I does not mean individual to most professional staff. An IEP written under part 504 is more about accomodation if I'm remembering correctly, but having had nieces and nephews who qualified under that part, here at least it uses the same form. I don't think that I've said just any accomodation a parent thinks would be helpful will get put into an IEP. I have said that parents have to go into those meetings with the information showing why such an accomodation is APPROPRIATE for their child. After that is discussed and if the school is saying no, then the parent needs to request a copy of the ...oh gee can't remember the name of the document the school 'should' fill out when refusing a service. but such a document would have why it was requested and why the school is refusing. ex. a child with autism would do much better in a certain enviroment using techniques not provided in the school he attends. The school refuses based on the fact that they already serve kids with autism. If the parents have shown why the program is appropriate during the meeting and request the schools refusal in writing (ahh, it's called prior written notice) then when doing due process the parents have documentation as to why the school refused. No one said it was fair, but any sped lawyer and advocate will tell you that you do NOT argue best, you argue APPROPRIATE.

I would assume that there is some documentation in this case that caused the due process to go toward the accomodation, if it holds up in court remains to be seen. I do wish her luck.

Oh and Jillio can you give me information on this CART thing. My 23 yo (hoh) is going back to school, some of her classes are going to be challenging (anatomy & chem) this sounds like a good option if she can get it. But she might get better results if she's more informed. Links would be fine. thanks.

If you want to pm me withthe area you are in, or the school she is planning to attend I can send you provider lists.

Agreed, you argue appropriate not best. But remember also that the reasonalbe is in there. And CART services at the high school level would ahve to be as a last resort for a substandard performing student I am afraid.

CART would definately be helpful in chem and anatomy classes.

 

[jillio]

Absolutely for the goal should be what is best for the child in question not what can we provide or not have to provide so she can just be average. If a child has the potential and ability to be an A plus student, then the IEP should be geared towards that.

Wrong. It is not about what is best, but what is reasonable and appropriate. And it is not decided on potential, but on present level of functioning. Guess your wife attended all the IEPs for your daughter, huh?

 

[jag]

Absolutely for the goal should be what is best for the child in question not what can we provide or not have to provide so she can just be average. If a child has the potential and ability to be an A plus student, then the IEP should be geared towards that.

Actually Rick getting what is best for each individual is the goal, the thing is you won't get it by using the word best. The IEP is supposed to be individual. I find it frustrating cause schools really don't individualize the instruction as they should. It requires constant monitoring to ensure anything you've put in there is actually done as stated. And I think this is where alot of the disagrement in this particular discussion is. I really don't know if your family used an IEP for your daughter but accomodations are usually resonable, in this case CART has so far been found to be resonable in the due process so far. That can change as it winds it way through the court system based on how well the attourney can argue that the accomodation is reasonable (compared to her peers, including the other deaf kids in that school system) and how the school had worded it's rejection (pwn) of this request. I do hope the student prevails but it's hard to say if the courts will actually determine this to be reasonable in this instance, Jillio and dd are right in stating that this would be concidered over what is necessary for this particular student based on prior court cases where it's been determined that if the student is doing well or average the school is doing it's job and no other accomodation is necessary. That's why I wish Jackie luck and why I think she should be very careful how she words any posts or how she says anything in the media. She could be making her case even harder to win.

Having said that parents do need to know they can't say best. They need to go into the IEP meeting with any and all information showing why the accomodation they are requesting is APPROPRIATE for thier child. Sadly we can't ask for the best but can ask for appropriate (which just may be the best, if we can get the information and stuff to show it is appropriate over what they can provide, if they provide nothing to begin with we've a better chance. )

 

[rick48]

Actually Rick getting what is best for each individual is the goal, the thing is you won't get it by using the word best. The IEP is supposed to be individual. I find it frustrating cause schools really don't individualize the instruction as they should. It requires constant monitoring to ensure anything you've put in there is actually done as stated. And I think this is where alot of the disagrement in this particular discussion is. I really don't know if your family used an IEP for your daughter but accomodations are usually resonable, in this case CART has so far been found to be resonable in the due process so far. That can change as it winds it way through the court system based on how well the attourney can argue that the accomodation is reasonable (compared to her peers, including the other deaf kids in that school system) and how the school had worded it's rejection (pwn) of this request. I do hope the student prevails but it's hard to say if the courts will actually determine this to be reasonable in this instance, Jillio and dd are right in stating that this would be concidered over what is necessary for this particular student based on prior court cases where it's been determined that if the student is doing well or average the school is doing it's job and no other accomodation is necessary. That's why I wish Jackie luck and why I think she should be very careful how she words any posts or how she says anything in the media. She could be making her case even harder to win.

Having said that parents do need to know they can't say best. They need to go into the IEP meeting with any and all information showing why the accomodation they are requesting is APPROPRIATE for thier child. Sadly we can't ask for the best but can ask for appropriate (which just may be the best, if we can get the information and stuff to show it is appropriate over what they can provide, if they provide nothing to begin with we've a better chance. )

JAG,

You are right about using the word best and many, many posts ago I wrote about how the goal at an IEP is not to argue that what you are seeking are the "best" services for your child for you will fall into the Rowley trap but to demonstrate how what you are seeking are appropriate as opposed to be what is being offered by the SD. As in Jackie's case CART as opposed to a sign interpreter for a child who is not fluent in sign.

The word "best" should never ever enter the room where your IEP is being held.
Rick

 

[rick48]

Wrong. It is not about what is best, but what is reasonable and appropriate. And it is not decided on potential, but on present level of functioning. Guess your wife attended all the IEPs for your daughter, huh?

No, I went to them all, along with her, our TOD and our daughter's S&L therapist. We got everything we asked for and needed for our child's education because we were both prepared and we had a SE director whose goal was to provide the best education possible for our daughter.

 

[jag]

JAG,

You are right about using the word best and many, many posts ago I wrote about how the goal at an IEP is not to argue that what you are seeking are the "best" services for your child for you will fall into the Rowley trap but to demonstrate how what you are seeking are appropriate as opposed to be what is being offered by the SD. As in Jackie's case CART as opposed to a sign interpreter for a child who is not fluent in sign.

The word "best" should never ever enter the room where your IEP is being held.
Rick

And I think that thats one of the things we need to keep stressing here for parents who may be reading these posts. Getting an accomdation that some deem to be unreasonable may rest on being able to prove it's appropriate so constant reminders to parents not to use the word best need to be made I think. I'm all for Jackie pushing for CART for her daughter, it sounds like she's using equal access rather then the best accomdation. Will be interesting to see how this plays out through the courts. In the mean time her daughter is getting the service.

 

[jillio]

No, I went to them all, along with her, our TOD and our daughter's S&L therapist. We got everything we asked for and needed for our child's education because we were both prepared and we had a SE director whose goal was to provide the best education possible for our daughter.

And there's a problem with mainstream education for the deaf right there. The fact that it is lomped in with special education services. That allows for modification of the curiiculam,a nd it is not modification of the curriulum that deaf students need, it is modification of methodology. Modification f curriculum results in exactly the undereducation of bright capable students that we see on a widespread basis, and perpetuates the widely held belief by mainstream educators that deaf students are less intellectually capable than their hearing peers.

Exactly what accommodations were provided for your daughter? Pulling out of class for speech and language therapy? Separate instruction for langauge arts? Preferential seating?

 

[jillio]

JAG,

You are right about using the word best and many, many posts ago I wrote about how the goal at an IEP is not to argue that what you are seeking are the "best" services for your child for you will fall into the Rowley trap but to demonstrate how what you are seeking are appropriate as opposed to be what is being offered by the SD. As in Jackie's case CART as opposed to a sign interpreter for a child who is not fluent in sign.

The word "best" should never ever enter the room where your IEP is being held.
Rick

And as the decision rests on assessment of the child's current level of functioning, it would appear, from that perspective, that jackie's request for additional accommodations is excessive.

 

[jillio]

Actually Rick getting what is best for each individual is the goal, the thing is you won't get it by using the word best. The IEP is supposed to be individual. I find it frustrating cause schools really don't individualize the instruction as they should. It requires constant monitoring to ensure anything you've put in there is actually done as stated. And I think this is where alot of the disagrement in this particular discussion is. I really don't know if your family used an IEP for your daughter but accomodations are usually resonable, in this case CART has so far been found to be resonable in the due process so far. That can change as it winds it way through the court system based on how well the attourney can argue that the accomodation is reasonable (compared to her peers, including the other deaf kids in that school system) and how the school had worded it's rejection (pwn) of this request. I do hope the student prevails but it's hard to say if the courts will actually determine this to be reasonable in this instance, Jillio and dd are right in stating that this would be concidered over what is necessary for this particular student based on prior court cases where it's been determined that if the student is doing well or average the school is doing it's job and no other accomodation is necessary. That's why I wish Jackie luck and why I think she should be very careful how she words any posts or how she says anything in the media. She could be making her case even harder to win.

Having said that parents do need to know they can't say best. They need to go into the IEP meeting with any and all information showing why the accomodation they are requesting is APPROPRIATE for thier child. Sadly we can't ask for the best but can ask for appropriate (which just may be the best, if we can get the information and stuff to show it is appropriate over what they can provide, if they provide nothing to begin with we've a better chance. )

Exactly. And where this discussion of appropriate accommodations, when just this point was made in an attempt tp advise this parent by supplying just that information in an effort to assist in obtaining services, it was twisted into an anti-CI stance rather than an attempt to assist. CI is not and has never been, as issue in this case. Yet when this advise was offered, accusations abounded that we were simply anti-CI and pro ASL only. Emotion distorted the true issue. What a parent needs to do to increase their chances of winning not only at the due process level, but within the court system is the issue. And even jackie admitted that her attorney had made the same statements to her that I had made. And, had some of the strategies recommended by those who are responsible for making sure that the ADA is enforced, as well as responsible for following ADA guidelines in the provision of accommodations, been used in the IEP meeting, there is a better than average chance that resoting to due process would never have been necessary. Unfortunately, parents too often approach the request for service from an emotional standpoint and argue on the basis of fairness, citing only the added effort necessary by them in ensuring that their child succeeds academically. They shoot themselves in their own foot, and then refuse to understand how they have contributed to the denial of their request.

 

[rick48]

And there's a problem with mainstream education for the deaf right there. The fact that it is lomped in with special education services. That allows for modification of the curiiculam,a nd it is not modification of the curriulum that deaf students need, it is modification of methodology. Modification f curriculum results in exactly the undereducation of bright capable students that we see on a widespread basis, and perpetuates the widely held belief by mainstream educators that deaf students are less intellectually capable than their hearing peers.

Exactly what accommodations were provided for your daughter? Pulling out of class for speech and language therapy? Separate instruction for langauge arts? Preferential seating?

Who said anything about modification of curriculum? Do you just make things up as you go along? My daughter took honors and AP courses.

Sorry, but I will not discuss my child with you as you have proven to have no genuine interest in any rational discussion with someone who chose a different path then you did for your child and, more importantly, your past comments about her show that your sole intention is to further demean her as a futile attempt to get back at me.

 

[jillio]

Who said anything about modification of curriculum? Do you just make things up as you go along? My daughter took honors and AP courses.

Sorry, but I will not discuss my child with you as you have proven to have no interest in any rational discussion and your past comments about her show that your sole intention is to further demean her.

Please show me where I have made a demeaning comment to your daughter. I believe that was a question regarding service.......neither a statement, nor a personal observation. Your defense mechanisms are way over developed. They do have therapy for that.

And, since you seem to be having trouble focusing....you said "special ed", and I said "lumping deaf education under the umbrella of "special ed" allowed for modifications to the curriculum.

 

[rick48]

And as the decision rests on assessment of the child's current level of functioning, it would appear, from that perspective, that jackie's request for additional accommodations is excessive.

Disagree, as she is seeking equal access to maintain and perhaps hopefully increase her present level, which thankfully is excellent.

 

[rick48]

Please show me where I have made a demeaning comment to your daughter. I believe that was a question regarding service.......neither a statement, nor a personal observation. Your defense mechanisms are way over developed. They do have therapy for that.

And, since you seem to be having trouble focusing....you said "special ed", and I said "lumping deaf education under the umbrella of "special ed" allowed for modifications to the curriculum.

Right off the top of my head Post #50 in your "Why" thread. You talk about going into the gutter when it is you who comments upon other's children.

 

[jillio]

Disagree, as she is seeking equal access to maintain and perhaps hopefully increase her present level, which thankfully is excellent.

You can disagree all you wnat to. It isn't about her intention. It is about the criteria used to judge whether additional accommodations are necessary. Present level of functioning is the criterion most looked at.

 

[jillio]

Right off the top of my head Post #50 in your "Why" thread. You talk about going into the gutter when it is you who comments upon other's children.

Off the top of your head, huh? That paranoia is getting worse.

Went back and read the post, and I can't find your name or your daughter's name in it anywhere, nor can I find anything that could be considered a personal attack. And, as the response was made to shel, and not to you, it rather presumptuous of you to simply assume it was about you. You've really got to stop jumping to so many concclusions.

 

[deafdyke]

And there's a problem with mainstream education for the deaf right there. The fact that it is lomped in with special education services. That allows for modification of the curiiculam,a nd it is not modification of the curriulum that deaf students need, it is modification of methodology. Modification f curriculum results in exactly the undereducation of bright capable students that we see on a widespread basis, and perpetuates the widely held belief by mainstream educators that deaf students are less intellectually capable than their hearing peers.

I have to say that I think deaf and other classicly disabled kids would get a better education, if they were served by a different service agency. Most special ed teachers don't know how to teach kids like us. They usually just get a token one day intro to fingerspelling.
Rick so your daughter did really well? That doesn't surprise me. But, early on did she have to have significent accomondations?

 

[shel90]

One thing, a parents first and most important job is to raise their child, they are not going to have concern for every other child out there. They may offer emotional support and give a parent ideas of what worked for them that they may want to try, but it is NOT my job, Ricks job or even Jackie's job to ignore the rights and needs of our child because of how it 'may' impact someone else's. Think that's hard and selfish, I for one really don't care.

Jackie is also a teacher for the deaf so I was appalled when she called the deaf children who go to the deaf school "bad" according to what she heard from others. To me, that shows lack of compassion for those who can't "make" it in the public schools. Like they r beneath the oral sucesses and that is one of the many reasons I dislike this philisophy.

 

[pek1]

Jackie is also a teacher for the deaf so I was appalled when she called the deaf children who go to the deaf school "bad" according to what she heard from others. To me, that shows lack of compassion for those who can't "make" it in the public schools. Like they r beneath the oral sucesses and that is one of the many reasons I dislike this philisophy.

shel,

My blood is near the boiling point regarding that comment! My late aunt was a teacher for first grade (hearies) and always referred to them as "dum dums." She once called me "deaf and dumb" to which I replied, "I'm not dumb." Another thing, it is a known practice that teachers get together to choose what kids they want to teach and the ones with less seniority get the kids that no one wants to teach. This is bad and if I had known that at the time, I would have agreed with my mother to send me down to the deaf school and forget the public school in our area. This is shameful.

Now, I haven't been following this thread since the last time I posted, but, correct me if I'm wrong. Is Jackie a good teacher (one of us) or is she here just to create problems for deaf and hoh? No, I am not being facetious.