District files appeal against deaf student

[rick48]

I don't need to find another because you are not judge or jury. You are just a bitter lonely lady.

Disagree with you that she is a "lady", you are being way too kind but you should have also added that she cannot deal with any parent who chose a different path for their child then she did.


Jackie,

I think anyone can see how transparent her bitterness and jealousy is when she actually tries to argue that your fight to bring CART into your SD for your daughter is actually harmful to other parents and children. Also, got to love her solution of throwing hackie sack balls around, yea I went to HS in the Bronx and the thought of a hackie sack ball whizzing around the classroom is almost as frightening as the thought that this person claims to be providing services and advice to students. I guess we now know what services those are! "Here's your hackie sack ball and good luck in college!"

Why hackie sack balls? Wouldn't TASARs or stun guns work so much better?

Hang in there Jackie, ignore her and keep fighting the good fight for your kids!
Rick

 

[rick48]

...Please note that I'm neither feeling vindicated nor gratified in any way here...it's really a very sad thing....

What are seeking vindication or gratification for, the personal attacks and villification of a parent who has chosen to take a stand and fight her school district for what she believes will directly help her daughter and ultimately other deaf children or your cheap shot attack on that very same person after you thought she had left the forum?
Rick

I guess seeing how Jackie has been treated by some of the members of this forum has made me forget how wonderful, open and tolerant those who advocate Deaf Culture are, as they are so apt of constantly reminding us who choose to have our children be part of the larger deaf community.

 

[rick48]

Considering that jackie's daughter is doing better than even the majority of the hearing students, this would be considered excessive.

A first, jillio actually acknowledges that there are oral children with cis who are achieving at levels above the average hearing student! I would think having admitted this instead of attacking Jackie you would want to incorporate what she has done into your so-called counsel and advice of those deaf students entrusted to you?

Also, the standard for accomodation should not be the average child but the actual child involved so that she or he can reach and/or maintain their full level of potential.

 

[rick48]

Because her grades are good she should continue to struggle understanding what's going on when someone speaks softly. OOoKKKK.

The thing about seating arrangements is there are always those kids you can't understand unless they sit right next to you. In Hs kids don't really like to have seating arrangements and many of the teachers don't either. At least that was my experience.



I didn't say they don't know how to get accomodations, I'm saying if they can't get what is appropriate for their child and they really think it is appropriate rather then complain they should begin using the system established to get the accomodation that is appropriate for their child, or quit complaining. Usually things turn around when you begin to ask for things like rejection in writing. But if you know that something would help the child are you willing like Jackie to try to change the status quo by filing due process? Are your friends?

I live in a small school district, I knew all the kids in sped. My youngest was the only one in the school for a couple years with significant delays who was mostly contained and only mainstreamed in the classes like art, music etc, but all breaks and play time were with her peers and she wasn't treated like ar 'retard', even tho she is mentally retarded. I will agree that the staff was more of a problem with her. But the point is my daugter who's hoh/deaf would have still been treated like she was regardless. And alot of it was her attitude.





There are welfare queens. I don't come here to discuss my opinion of people like the young mom with 2 kids who was taking classes to be a photographer (easy classes btw) who was given money for day care so she could attend school, who never showed up for school because she was tired or whatever and who somehow while not having any money and needing my tax money to go to school and pay her rent has the money to go to FL and take her kids to disney during the school year when she's supposed to be attending classes. While my kids attend classes they had to work to pay for? Nope this isn't the place for that discussion. BTW, studies done have shown that the kids of the moms who went to work actually are doing better then those who's moms are still on welfare 10 yrs after the 'reform' that was to get them off their butts and into the workforce.

Oh and Harvard is sooooo overrated, but if someone wants to overpay to get Smashie into Harvard let them, it's their money. But in a public school if you can get better accomodations or are willing to go for it, good luck I hope you win and change things for those coming behind you. My youngest would have had to go to a school about 20 miles from her rather then in her home district if people had not been willing to fight the status quo. <let me add this, we have a neighbor who's severely disabled daughter was my 29 yo's age, so we're talking early 80's, they decided that the school in the county seat wasn't the correct place for her when she could travel 20 mile instead of 35 or so to the larger city who's school system had been taking kids like her for years. In the end they won their transfer out of this county but I believe they ended up paying for transportation at first. That to had to be changed and has changed. Without parents running into the obsticles and getting changes things will stay the same>



Yes there are some accomodations that seem excessive (like the hiring of a nurse for one child) but in the end the kid needs to go somewhere and his parents were willing to fight to keep him with his peers where he would have gone if he hadn't had medical problems. If Jackie can win her due process then things can begin to gradually change for kids who do better but could still use some accomodation.

Well said and very true.

 

[jillio]

Disagree with you that she is a "lady", you are being way too kind but you should have also added that she cannot deal with any parent who chose a different path for their child then she did.

You have no more skill or insight in assessing people than you do in assessing educational methodology or communication choices. You are completely incapable of engaging in intelligent, meaningful discussion of any issue that does not fall within the narrow, limited parameters of your own extremely uninformed perspective and experience. If bitterness is being demonstrated anywhere, it is in your refusal to substantiate that which you claim when challenged to do so. Obviously, that HS inthe Bronx didn't do much to advance your skill in persuasive argument and crtical analysis and thinking skills, or in social skills and pragmatic use of language. It did however, appear to have an undue influence on your tendency to resort to gutter tactics and juvenile name calling when you have been proven incorrect. That must be whee you developed the idea that bullying and agressiveness were effective tools in dealing with people. Must be very frustrating for you when you discover that your ridiculas attempts at intimidation through agression don't work. You have already succeeded in destroying your credibility, rick. Please cease this inept attempts of yours, you are only causing yourself embarrassment and destroying any possibiity you have of anyone taking anything you say seriously.
Jackie,

I think anyone can see how transparent her bitterness and jealousy is when she actually tries to argue that your fight to bring CART into your SD for your daughter is actually harmful to other parents and children. Also, got to love her solution of throwing hackie sack balls around, yea I went to HS in the Bronx and the thought of a hackie sack ball whizzing around the classroom is almost as frightening as the thought that this person claims to be providing services and advice to students. I guess we now know what services those are! "Here's your hackie sack ball and good luck in college!"

Once again, you are demonstrating your ignorance. The technique of using the hacki sack ball in business meetingws and deaf classrooms is one that has been used effectively for many years. Of course, this happens in civilized environments, and quite obviously, that is not an environment you are familiar with.
Why hackie sack balls? Wouldn't TASARs or stun guns work so much better?

The comparison of hackie sack balls and Tasars or stunguns gives a telling idication f the world you live in. Perhaps those would be effective tools int he places you frequent, or the classrooms you live in, but I would hope and pray that such is not necessary inthe environment of the majority. You do have a bent for violent behavior and outbursts, don't you. You know a little therapy could help you with those issues.

Hang in there Jackie, ignore her and keep fighting the good fight for your kids!
Rick

Oh, yes, jackie, keep fighting the good fight, becasue the whole world reveolves around your and rick's children. Other deaf children don't matter. The two of you are egocentrism, ignorance, and selfishness personafied.

 

[jillio]

A first, jillio actually acknowledges that there are oral children with cis who are achieving at levels above the average hearing student! I would think having admitted this instead of attacking Jackie you would want to incorporate what she has done into your so-called counsel and advice of those deaf students entrusted to you?

Also, the standard for accomodation should not be the average child but the actual child involved so that she or he can reach and/or maintain their full level of potential.

I have always admitted that there are a few exceptions to the many. However, I have admitted nothing in reference to jackie's daughter, and have always qualified any reference to jackie's daughter's academic achievement withthe phrase, "as so claimed by her mother".

Why in the world would I want to incorporate the oral only method into my cousel and advise to my students, their parents, or other educators. It does harm to deaf students. The deaf students entrusted to me are receiving ALL of the services they need to succeed simply becasue I do not reccommend the limiting oral philosophy for them.

How is it that you know that jackie's daughter has not achieved the full level of her potential? Got a crystal ball in your pocket along with your stun gun?

 

[jillio]

Well said and very true.

I find it ironic that someone such as yourself that is stuck in the oral only viewpoint of 100 years ago would feel the need to comment on something such as change.

 

[rick48]

Oh, ... personafied.

Blah, blah blah

 

[rick48]

I find it ironic that someone such as yourself that is stuck in the oral only viewpoint of 100 years ago would feel the need to comment on something such as change.

Yea, our thinking is so last century that we were at the vanguard of choosing cochlear implants when people like yourself were saying they would never work. You just don't get it and never will

 

[jillio]

Blah, blah blah

There you go with your oh, so intelligent replies again. At least you are consistent.

 

[jillio]

Yea, our thinking is so last century that we were at the vanguard of choosing cochlear implants when people like yourself were saying they would never work. You just don't get it and never will

Don't get it do you. Okay, I'll explain this slowly so you can understand. We.... are .... not.... talking .... about .... CI. We.... are ..... talking .... about..... oral .... only..... methods. And ..... I ..... have ..... never ..... said .... CI .... is .... not .... a .... useful ..... tool; .... just .... that ..... it .... isn't .... a .... cure-all .... for.... the .... linguistic (oops, big word!) .... and .... educational .... needs .... of .... deaf .... dhildren. And .... yes, .... your.... belief .... in .... the ..... oral .... only .... philosophy .... is .... last .... century. See .... if ..... you ..... can ..... respond ..... to ..... the ..... appropriate ..... topic .... next ..... time.

 

[jag]

Thank you jillo. The fact of the matter is that jackie's daughter is doing BEYOND well. There's no demonstrated need for accomondations.

jag, most of the time people tend to unconsciously modify their speech patterns to make it easier for dhh folks to undy them, when they are speaking.
Besides, something like a cheap microphone would work just as well. What about a soundfield set up?
Besides not understanding is simply a part of being an oral dhh person. "What?" is almost everyone's favorite word when interacting with hearies!

Geeze, would you please quit instructing me about how other people interact with deaf/hoh people, I know about the WHat? thing I don't need you to tell me thank you very much.

Jackie is requesting what she feels is APPROPRIATE for her daughter. And no matter how she has expressed herself here my guess is her lawyer is agruing appropriate, not better. Parents even Jackie need to remember that. It's not up to us to decide she's asking for to much, Jackie is responsible for her children and she is willing to work to get what she feels they need.

Unfortunately I can see her losing her case because of the wording of some of her posts here. I wish her luck, but sometimes it's better to let things go rather then ruin your case.

 

[jag]

A

Also, the standard for accomodation should not be the average child but the actual child involved so that she or he can reach and/or maintain their full level of potential.

The professionals in education do tend to forget what the I in IEP stands for don't they?

 

[jag]

Oh, yes, jackie, keep fighting the good fight, becasue the whole world reveolves around your and rick's children. Other deaf children don't matter. The two of you are egocentrism, ignorance, and selfishness personafied.

One thing, a parents first and most important job is to raise their child, they are not going to have concern for every other child out there. They may offer emotional support and give a parent ideas of what worked for them that they may want to try, but it is NOT my job, Ricks job or even Jackie's job to ignore the rights and needs of our child because of how it 'may' impact someone else's. Think that's hard and selfish, I for one really don't care.

 

[jillio]

Geeze, would you please quit instructing me about how other people interact with deaf/hoh people, I know about the WHat? thing I don't need you to tell me thank you very much.

Jackie is requesting what she feels is APPROPRIATE for her daughter. And no matter how she has expressed herself here my guess is her lawyer is agruing appropriate, not better. Parents even Jackie need to remember that. It's not up to us to decide she's asking for to much, Jackie is responsible for her children and she is willing to work to get what she feels they need.

Unfortunately I can see her losing her case because of the wording of some of her posts here. I wish her luck, but sometimes it's better to let things go rather then ruin your case.

And that,jag, is exactly the point we have been trying to make. She even said her lawyer told her the same thing...that you can't go into due process or an appeal telling everyone how great your daughter is performing, and then expect the school system to shell out the big bucks for CART (and it is a very expensive accoomodation). The schools and the courts consider appropriate as being that which allow a child to function at a reasonable level. The key word is is reasonable, because it is also stated inthe ADA that accommodations will be reasonable and appropriate. And the school system is under no mandate whatsoever to provide any service simply because a parent says it is appropriate. They can even refuse to provide a terp for a child that comes from a signing environment if they can produce the "experts" that will say the child has sufficient oral skills to function without sign. They can also provide alternative services other than those which the parent has requested if they can support their argument that the same goal will be realized. When however, we have attempted to point all of this out to jackie, in an attempt to forewarn her of what she was up agianst, we were accused of picking on her, and of being biased agianst CI children and children who didn't sign. She turned what started out as a reasonable discussion of the issues, and disregarded the advise and experience of everyone who has tried to inform her, and engaged in emotional tirades and contradictory claims regarding her expertise. And I can guarantee you, if she attempts the same sort of tactics in court, she will loose the case based on her own behavior and attitudes.

 

[jillio]

The professionals in education do tend to forget what the I in IEP stands for don't they?

Int he mainstream, it means simply providing services in addition to those provided for the hearing students. It does not mean that a parent can simply believe that an accommodation will be helpful and get it written into the IEP.

 

[SJCSue]

The professionals in education do tend to forget what the I in IEP stands for don't they?

IEP stands for Individualized Education Program. The IEP is "a program devised to satify IDEA's requirement that students with disabilities must receive an educational program based on multidisciplinary assessment and designed to meet their individual needs. The IEP must include consideration of the student's present level of performance, the program's annual goals, short-term instructional objectives or benchmarks, related services, percent of time in general education, timeline for special education services, and an annual evaluation." The IEP meeting should be a cooperation between the parents and the school district.

 

[jag]

Int he mainstream, it means simply providing services in addition to those provided for the hearing students. It does not mean that a parent can simply believe that an accommodation will be helpful and get it written into the IEP.

My 17 yrs of experience have basically shown that the I does not mean individual to most professional staff. An IEP written under part 504 is more about accomodation if I'm remembering correctly, but having had nieces and nephews who qualified under that part, here at least it uses the same form. I don't think that I've said just any accomodation a parent thinks would be helpful will get put into an IEP. I have said that parents have to go into those meetings with the information showing why such an accomodation is APPROPRIATE for their child. After that is discussed and if the school is saying no, then the parent needs to request a copy of the ...oh gee can't remember the name of the document the school 'should' fill out when refusing a service. but such a document would have why it was requested and why the school is refusing. ex. a child with autism would do much better in a certain enviroment using techniques not provided in the school he attends. The school refuses based on the fact that they already serve kids with autism. If the parents have shown why the program is appropriate during the meeting and request the schools refusal in writing (ahh, it's called prior written notice) then when doing due process the parents have documentation as to why the school refused. No one said it was fair, but any sped lawyer and advocate will tell you that you do NOT argue best, you argue APPROPRIATE.

I would assume that there is some documentation in this case that caused the due process to go toward the accomodation, if it holds up in court remains to be seen. I do wish her luck.

Oh and Jillio can you give me information on this CART thing. My 23 yo (hoh) is going back to school, some of her classes are going to be challenging (anatomy & chem) this sounds like a good option if she can get it. But she might get better results if she's more informed. Links would be fine. thanks.

 

[rick48]

The professionals in education do tend to forget what the I in IEP stands for don't they?

Absolutely for the goal should be what is best for the child in question not what can we provide or not have to provide so she can just be average. If a child has the potential and ability to be an A plus student, then the IEP should be geared towards that.

 

[rick48]

Don't get it do you. Okay, I'll explain this slowly so you can understand. We.... are .... not.... talking .... about .... CI. We.... are ..... talking .... about..... oral .... only..... methods. And ..... I ..... have ..... never ..... said .... CI .... is .... not .... a .... useful ..... tool; .... just .... that ..... it .... isn't .... a .... cure-all .... for.... the .... linguistic (oops, big word!) .... and .... educational .... needs .... of .... deaf .... dhildren. And .... yes, .... your.... belief .... in .... the ..... oral .... only .... philosophy .... is .... last .... century. See .... if ..... you ..... can ..... respond ..... to ..... the ..... appropriate ..... topic .... next ..... time.

Oh,....I.... get....it....but....its....just....that....you....are....wrong....and....it....will....be....a....cold....day....in....hell....before....you....understand....the....impact....cochlear....implants....have....had....upon....the....profoundly....deaf....