District files appeal against deaf student

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Right and that is why it is so silly to maintain that there is only one method that should be used with every deaf child. Our goal should be to help parents find the method or methods that are best for their child.
Rick

You are so right. Jillo says that we say oral is the best and I have never heard you and I know I have never said that oral is the best for all deaf kids. It has been the best for my children but I also know that my children have friends that signing has been best for them. It is an individual choice made by informed parents.
 
many deaf children in the mainstream who are judged to have "bhavior problems" are actually problems in behavior created through lack of communication and needs not being met in the classtoom.
AMEN!!!! I was one of them. And I mean I remember reading somewhere that "ADD" is a very common dx for oral only dhh kids, but its a very rare dx in Signing deaf kids, and is rarely seen in schools for the deaf.
Jackie, yes sucide isn't limited to just one group. HOWEVER, the chief root of social problems can be boiled down to one cause........not fitting in with mainstream society. Oral skills give SOME access to the hearing world, but they do not and never will give 100% access to that world. Trying to make kids fit in with mainstream society just hasn't worked for the majority of kids. There are still enourmous social problems faced by minorities including oral only kids.
That is the downside that a lot of oral only advocates tend to gloss over. They tend to point at the high acheiving(high acheiving even for hearing kids) honors students, and say "gee look at these kids!"
They do not acknowledge the kids who are thought of as MR by hearies b/c of their voices, they do not acknowledge how hard "not fitting in" is, they do not acknowledge a ton of the downsides that are inherent in the oral only approach. And yes, I know your kid has done well, but there have ALWAYS been kids who do really well. It doesn't mean they represent the majority of kids.
 
Jillo, I have a question for you and I have asked this question before, could you please make sure you anwser it this time.

You say you hold me to higher standard because I am an educator, I understand that and I agree but my question is that Shel who is also an educator and has also been criticize for her grammar skills.

So why do you hold me to a higher standard and not Shel?

I think it is because I am an oral teacher of deaf. And remember I am a preschool teacher so I do not teach grammar skills. I do teach pre-writing skills like tracing and copying letters and words. My goal is for all of my students to be able to write their first and last name. Overall all my main focus with my students and what I spend the most time is developing oral language.

The difference between Shel and me is that she actually has to teach Writing and Grammar skills because for what I understand she teaches upper Elementary.

Don't get wrong I am sure that Shel is a great teacher at her school. I personally do not agree with everything Shel says but I can tell that she believes in what she does and that she would do whatever possible for her students to succeed in school just as I would, we just believe in different things.
 
AMEN!!!! I was one of them. And I mean I remember reading somewhere that "ADD" is a very common dx for oral only dhh kids, but its a very rare dx in Signing deaf kids, and is rarely seen in schools for the deaf.
Jackie, yes sucide isn't limited to just one group. HOWEVER, the chief root of social problems can be boiled down to one cause........not fitting in with mainstream society. Oral skills give SOME access to the hearing world, but they do not and never will give 100% access to that world. Trying to make kids fit in with mainstream society just hasn't worked for the majority of kids. There are still enourmous social problems faced by minorities including oral only kids.
That is the downside that a lot of oral only advocates tend to gloss over. They tend to point at the high acheiving(high acheiving even for hearing kids) honors students, and say "gee look at these kids!"
They do not acknowledge the kids who are thought of as MR by hearies b/c of their voices, they do not acknowledge how hard "not fitting in" is, they do not acknowledge a ton of the downsides that are inherent in the oral only approach. And yes, I know your kid has done well, but there have ALWAYS been kids who do really well. It doesn't mean they represent the majority of kids.


I see what you are saying that kids who don't fit in do not feel part of the mainstream society so they have a higher chance of committing suicide.

Do you see that we are all different in one way or another? I did not fit in mainstream society when I was in high school because I was 50 to 75 pds heavier then I should have been, I worn thick glasses, and my mother looks like the typical Mexican woman. My sister and I took more after my father who was blond hair, tall, and light skin. My mother would stick out like sore thumb. We lived in mostly white neighborhoods, at times people would confused my mother for the cleaning lady. As a teenager although my mom spoke almost perfect English, she still had a heavy accent. I hate to admit it now but I was embarrassed of my mother when we were in public. I can tell you now that I am very proud of my mother and what she was able to do with 2 daughters in a country she did not know but as a teenagers I was at times completely embarrased.

We are all different in one way or another so assuming that just because a deaf child was raised orally is at a higher level for suicide is not accurate. Any teenager with any type of differences real or not real is at a higher level for committing suicide.
 
You are so right. Jillo says that we say oral is the best and I have never heard you and I know I have never said that oral is the best for all deaf kids. It has been the best for my children but I also know that my children have friends that signing has been best for them. It is an individual choice made by informed parents.

That's fine u think that way but what happens if the parents want oral education for their child and place them in oral education and the child struggles with spoken language and gets delayed? Who is right..the parents have the right or what about the rights of the child to be in an environment where he/she can pick up language without struggling?

Is that fair..hearing kids have full access to spoken language cuz they can hear normally while deaf kids struggle. ASL is a visual language that enables deaf children to be able to acquire and develop language to be ready to tackle on higher conceptual thinking skills. Is it fair to me that I struggled all my life with trying to keep up with my hearing peers and missing out on a lot. Did I ask for that? My mom had the right to put me in an oral only environment cuz she believed the oral-only specialists telling her that by exposing me to sign language will prevent me from learning oral skills. I had no say in that matter..so I was the one who paid the heavy price for it as well as many many other deaf people. Maybe your kids are not but there are many out there that are. If u dont want to believe me, that's fine.
 
Right and that is why it is so silly to maintain that there is only one method that should be used with every deaf child. Our goal should be to help parents find the method or methods that are best for their child.
Rick

During the first 5 years of the deaf child's life, while the parents are finding the "right" method that is best for their child, time is lost for language development.
 
During the first 5 years of the deaf child's life, while the parents are finding the "right" method that is best for their child, time is lost for language development.

With early identification there is no need to lose that many years of language. A child can be in oral program by the age of 6 months. Like I said I need a max of 2 years but usually in one year I will know. If a child was early identified and has been in a soild oral program, by the age of 2 1/2 years old we should know if a child will be able to be oral. You might think 2 1/2 years is too much time to waste but I do not. My daughter was not identified until the age of 2 and worn hearings aids at 2 1/2 years old. My son did not receive his implant until 3 years old and they are both doing great, reading at grade level. In life, we have to know what we want and be able to go for it. It is a risk but life is a risk. And this is a risk I was willing to take. You might be willing to take that risk but I am and many other parents are. Life is a risk, we just have to be able weigh pros and cons.
 
GREAT POST! And, many deaf children in the mainstream who are judged to have "bhavior problems" are actually problems in behavior created through lack of communication and needs not being met in the classtoom. Change the environment, ie transfer to a school for the deaf where their needs are met, and surprise! The problems in behavior disappear! They do not have "behavior problems" in the clinical diagnosable sense, but rather promblems in behavior that are created in the mainstream and their attempts to adapt. And it extremely umjust to label these kids as behavior problems, because not only is it untrue in the vast majority of cases, the label sticks and creates additional stigma throughout their academic career.

From my experience working at that self contained deaf program in the public school in AZ, I saw that happening with the 8th grader boys. They got the messages from that deaf teacher who believed in the oral only method and used on all 13 deaf kids ..mind u, more than half of them dont have oral skills and rely on ASL so the older kids would act out cuz they couldnt understand her, they were isolated from their hearing peers, AND worse of all, they were placed in the same class for math and LA with kids way way way younger than them so of course, they acted out. Then the administrators, espeicially the school pychologist who HAD NO TRAINING in deafness, labeled them as having behavior disorders and their parents believed them. As a result, they got the message so they acted what was expected of them..with behavior problems. When I talked to them, they would chat and chat away with me and one of them cried asking why his mom put him in that school. It just broke my heart. That was about 9 years ago, I hope they are leading happy and successful lives and not on drugs or whatever from being stigmazed like that all their lives at the schools. It is just tooo f*&^^&^ed up.
 
Jillo, I have a question for you and I have asked this question before, could you please make sure you anwser it this time.

You say you hold me to higher standard because I am an educator, I understand that and I agree but my question is that Shel who is also an educator and has also been criticize for her grammar skills.

So why do you hold me to a higher standard and not Shel?

I think it is because I am an oral teacher of deaf. And remember I am a preschool teacher so I do not teach grammar skills. I do teach pre-writing skills like tracing and copying letters and words. My goal is for all of my students to be able to write their first and last name. Overall all my main focus with my students and what I spend the most time is developing oral language.

The difference between Shel and me is that she actually has to teach Writing and Grammar skills because for what I understand she teaches upper Elementary.

Don't get wrong I am sure that Shel is a great teacher at her school. I personally do not agree with everything Shel says but I can tell that she believes in what she does and that she would do whatever possible for her students to succeed in school just as I would, we just believe in different things.

Sorry to intrude but, in a word, Shel's grammar is a lot better than yours just from what I've seen.
 
Well, why didn't they just tell you that they were going to bring you to the hospital and make you so that you wouldn't be able to have children?! Why not round up all the deaf people, especially on alldeaf.com and do that? You know I'm being facetious, but I read your statement the first time and I was highly offended.

Something else I want you to know . . . do you know why, at my age, I'm still in college and haven't finished yet? Never mind the fact that I had been in the ministry for 18 years as a lay person, but I never had anyone help me like totally deaf people do. My first college, I had to sit in the back of class rooms. There was a gal who was deaf and she got all the help she wanted, but yet, I couldn't get it. It's no wonder, when I think about it, makes me mad. I'm not mad right now, but now that we have the ADA, schools have to comply or they'd better get their checkbooks ready. I take full advantage of disability services, note takers, the whole nine yards. I'm meeting with the disabilities coordinator next Monday afternoon to set up my classes and I am requesting CART instead of note takers.

Another thing, while I'm on my soapbox . . . the rest of the deaf people (notice I didn't mention Deaf community) had better get with the program and start doing things to make them look intelligent and smart, because a whole lot that I'm seeing here, makes me shudder. I dated a gal a few years ago that was just as deaf as me and she told me that when she is out with her deaf friends, they make her order for them at restaurants because she is oral. I told her that is a no no and not to do it. If deaf people want to go out, that's fine, but they need to know how to communicate what they need and want, none of this baloney of not being able to communicate! These people make the rest of us look like idiots! When Heath was here (he's totally deaf), he not only has a hearing dog, but has absolutely no problem functioning in society, despite being totally deaf. Wish he was still here, knock some sense into some of these people around here.

<<climbing off soapbox>>


I dont speak for the adults in Deaf community and how they behave..my concern is for young deaf children having access to language so they can develop higher literacy skills to be able to get good jobs and to be able to interact in both worlds freely. I dont know where all this is coming from.
 
**nodding agreement** And I might add, that we have many, many valid reasons for believing the way we do. Not simply personal experience, but knowlege gained from a comparative analysis of all methods, the pros and the cons, and a weighting of the consequences. We have seen the stated drawbacks of the oral only method, not just in one student, not just in 2 students, and not just from personal experience, but in many, many students.
Yet when we cite our reasons, valid as they may be, for believing such as we do, we are criticicized and called narrow minded by those who disagree. And when we provide numbers to back up our judgements, we are accused of picking on others. In short, our experience and knowlege is given zero credibility simply beacuse it is in opposition to their view. We have both admitted that speech, speech skills, and CI can be very valuable tools in the education of deaf children. We have conceeded that point to their philosophies. However, they do not even have broadness enough of mind, or fluidity enough in assessment anything other than an oral approach has value. Nor, even when faced with disprovable statistics, can they admit to the huge problem with language deprivation that occurs in the majority of deaf children of hearing parents is any cause for worry and concern. None of them have been able to answer the question of what do do with the children who have been placed in an oral environment until they have been so deprived that difficulties have been created for them for that will affect their entire life. The concentration is always on what is fair for one child. What about the unfairness of the problems created for the many? What about the children whose needs aren't being met simply because of such strict adherence to one philospohy is more important that addressing the needs of the children? You want to talk about unfair and unjust? What the hell is fair about a child spending their entire school career sitting in a classroom feeling isolated and left out simply because some oralist has deemed spoken language to be the end all and be all? What is fair about the teenageer who is so insecure and socially maladapted that they believe that they are inferior to their hearing peers because that is the covert message they have been given all of their life? What is fair about the deaf teenager who spends time in the hospital for a suicide attempt because he has lost hope, at that very young age, of ever being able to be like his hearing peers, and has never been given an example of a successful deaf individual on which to base his realistic dreams and aspirations? What is fair about the mainstreamed student who goes home every night and cries, because she is the only deaf student in her school, and no matter how hard she tries, her speech is still a bit difficult to understand and no one will take the time or make the effort to include them? There is nothing fair about any of that, and I have seen these things occur as a result of beiong planced in amainstream oral environment. Experiences such as these are a common thread in the experience of deaf people who have been placed in a mainstream oral environment. Language deprivation, and this type of social environment during childhood and adolescense has detrimental and wide reaching effects. Do I object to it. Yes, I do, and I will not apologize for my objections.


Amen! Same here..most of my deaf friends who grew up orally and in mainstreamed as the only deaf person went thru many of the things u brought up, myself included. I used to go home crying daily cuz I was purposely left out cuz none of my hearing peers would take the time to "work" at understanding me nor take the time to make sure I was included in the conversations. Right, it is not their job and I dont blame them cuz they were just kids which is why I hold those oral-only specialists who told my mom that this kind of placement was the best for me responsible for all my emotional baggage from feeling isolated day in and day out.
 
The only thing I can think of right now is, what about the parents? Can they teach their kids how to be their own advocates? Can't the kids do something, too? I am reminded of an audiologist here at MSUM who told me, "Pete, you're gonna have to learn how to be your own advocate!" What about constantly badgering the people in schools to get help? What about threats to go to the news media when a child cannot get help? What about obtaining an attorney or obtaining help through a law school to help? (Yes, there are clinics at your local law school that can help you).

What about sit in's? Sit down and keep arms folded and refusing to leave until the student gets the help necessary? Doubtfully the police would get involved in this, as a service hasn't been provided and they would be reluctant to get involved lest they get sued. What about badgering the superintendent of the school district, finding out where she/he lives and picket (with proper permits, that is)? What about hammering a school district with so many lawsuits that it ties up the courts in that area? Media coverage galore? Letters to the editor. Opinion columns. Statistics. You know what I'm saying? Oh, and if the judge refuses to hear a case, file a lawsuit against him/her. In other words, bankrupt these people and don't let them have any rest until students are supplied with what they need.

Absolutely these kids need to learn to be their own advocates. That is one of my goals in working with kids at the college level. Unfortunately, mainstream high schools are extremely lax in providing transition services for these kids. The ones coming out of deaf schools have received transition counseling, and are much better prepared to advocate for themselves. However the mainstream schools just seem to take the attitude that "Whew! Got rid of another pain in the butt!" and turns them loose without either the academic skills or the independent living skills they need.
 
I have achieved excellence in my life and so have my children. I am so proud of myself for what I have been able to do with my life and I am even prouder of my children and students. I work in an area that is probable over 60% Hispanic. When my students' parents meet me and my children, they feel hope. We are living the American dream.

First of all, English as a second language for you is not a concern. English as a second language for deaf students is the concern. And you are teaching children who are developing a foundation in the English language. What you are able to teach them at this young age most certainly builds on the reading and writing skills that they later develop. As an educator, you should have a grasp of that concept.

And, yes, jackie; we can all tell how proud you are of yourself. It comes through on every post. Perhaps you are living the American dream. My concern is for those deaf students who are being prevented from living the American dream because of ineffective educational practices and outdated adherence to discriminatory and handicapping philosophies.
 
Interesting phrase out of the pen of an educator.... or aren't you??

What's your excuse for writing so crappy ??

What the hell are you talking about. Got anything valuable to add cloggy?
 
We all know you will never apologize because you are a very hostile person. You feel you are right and no else can be right unless they agree with you. I have seen you even turn parents off who are raising their child with signs only.

You have said many, many times that a TC approach or a signing approach is only valuable if and when the oral method fails. I don't know what century you are living in, but you cannot seem to supply any recent, valid research to back up that claim. You have not been around this forum, nor in enough topics, to have any idea what anyone's opinion (other than you, rick, and cloggy) is of me. To assume you do is just another example of your over inflated opinion of yourself.

And yes, when I see outdated and discriminatory philosophies being spouted out that have, in the past, and still continue to this day thanks to those individuals who will not look past thier own ethnocentric, limited viewpoint, harm deaf children, I get angry.

If anyone here is guilty of redirecting an issue by refusing to discuss the issue, and instead resorting to personal insults, whining about being picked on, and personal judgements based on too limited information, jackie, it is you. You have repeatedly complained that people are picking on you simply becasue they are able to offer refutation of your misperceptions. You have contradicted yourself in your posts, and when you have been called on it, you have resorted to name calling and attempts to intimidate through personal insult. Then, when we respond in kind, you want to throw it all back on us, when you are the one responsible for setting the tone.

I will not apologise because I have done nothing to apologise for. You are the one that came in here and insulted not only the students who attend deaf schools, but signing students, ASL based adults, committed and devoted educators who have taken the time and made the effort to investigate and compare all methods of education and arrived at reasonable conclusions, and the deaf community as a whole.

If you think you find me offensive, you can multiply that by ten and apply it to the way I feel about uninformed, predjudiced, ignorant educators that are still functioning under the disproven ideas of 50 years past.
 
Yes, your method had proven success just as the oral method as too.

The oral method has not been proven to be succesful in raising literacy scores or language competency in the majority of deaf students. And, as I said, I have responded to your attacks with further attack. Are you not guilty as well?
 
First of all, English as a second language for you is not a concern. English as a second language for deaf students is the concern. And you are teaching children who are developing a foundation in the English language. What you are able to teach them at this young age most certainly builds on the reading and writing skills that they later develop. As an educator, you should have a grasp of that concept.

And, yes, jackie; we can all tell how proud you are of yourself. It comes through on every post. Perhaps you are living the American dream. My concern is for those deaf students who are being prevented from living the American dream because of ineffective educational practices and outdated adherence to discriminatory and handicapping philosophies.

and I want to add that...many deaf people rarely get to live the American dream u get to live in, Jackie, cuz they were deprived of language during their first years of their lives while their parents and educators are "trying" different methods that work best for them before finally resorting to putting them in an ASL environment. By that time, they have already passed the critical years of language development and as a result, unless they work extremely hard, they dont achieve the literacy skills to get the kinds of jobs to live that American Dream.

Jackie..u said, "Two years is all I need"...two years is a lot of time lost on language development if the children are not able to pick up on oral language and as a result, puts them at least 2 years behind their hearing counterparts.

Can u answer this question: Is that fair for the children?
 
"I have also seen many research articles proving that my method does work if done properly. As I mention many times, you can find almost always find a research article proving your point."

So true on both counts!

Jackie would you mind citing or sending me some of the research you found? You can PM the information. While I find the research interesting, there is nothing that tops personal firsthand observations. I personally know many deaf kids with and without cis who have been raised orally (some just oral and some with sign), mainstreamed and who are attending and/or graduated very good top tier colleges, universities and grad schools.
Rick

Believing that research is not superior to first hand experience in generalizability and validity for a population is exactly why you are so misinformed. This is evidenced in your post where you say "raised orally", and then say "some with sign". Which is ti rick? Oral or with sign? It can't be both. If a child is using sign, they are not oral. They may have oral skills, but they are not oral.
 
You are so right. Jillo says that we say oral is the best and I have never heard you and I know I have never said that oral is the best for all deaf kids. It has been the best for my children but I also know that my children have friends that signing has been best for them. It is an individual choice made by informed parents.

Did you not say that all deaf kids should be placed in an oral environment, and if after time as passed, and they were older, it was shown that the oral method was not successful, they should be allowed to sign. If you can't remember saying that, jackie, I can go back and find your posts for you. That statement, is and of itself, saying that oral should be the first choice, and only those who are deemed to be "oral failures" should be permitted the use of sign. That, in and of itself, is the single most harmful, misinformed, and ethnocentric attitude that comes out of the oral philosophy.

Did you, or did you not, make the statement that you were an oral advocate? I can find those posts as well if you are experiencing memory lapses.

Are you, or are you not, an oral teacher of the deaf? Were you or were you not, trained at the Tracy clinic. Did you or did you not, admit to the fact that you did extremely limited observation of any other method, because it was not your focus?

Please do not skip over these questions and refuse to answer them, as you have so many others. You need to clarify your position, because you continue to make contradictory statements.
 
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