District files appeal against deaf student

[shel90]

"Believing that research is not superior to first hand experience in generalizability and validity for a population is exactly why you are so misinformed..."

Sorry but my opinion that observing firsthand adults and children with cochlear implants in real life situations is indeed superior to most research and more useful to parents who are in the process of making the cochlear implant decision for their children is not being misinformed but rather placing a different weight on one of the factors parents should utilize when making the cochlear implant decision for there child. If I had said that research was of no value whatsoever, that is a different story but since I did not, your argument is not valid. Again, it always comes back to you thinking that you are right and that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.


"...This is evidenced in your post where you say "raised orally", and then say "some with sign". Which is ti rick? Oral or with sign? It can't be both. If a child is using sign, they are not oral. They may have oral skills, but they are not oral."

First, if you are going to quote me, please do so correctly. Since I do not agree with your position of mutual exclusivity regarding oral skills and signing skills, there is nothing for me to choose. Of course you can continue to argue that my firsthand personal observations of oral deaf kids who can sign is incorrect but since you were not there to actually observe these kids, there is not much validity to your position but go ahead and argue it till your heart's content. Its what you live for anyway.

Anyone for hackie sack?

"generalizability" is that actually a word?

Jillo advocates for using both (yes oral language included) so why are u and others are arguing with her? Is it cuz she believes in including sign language in the education for deaf children as well? Is that the reason what you are all objecting to?
Just wondering..

 

[rick48]

U have the personal experience living life as a deaf person? U, Jillo, Rick, and Cloggy dont have that personal experience..Jillo already has admitted that she doesnt.

Ah but Jackie, Cloggy and I have the personal experience of actually raising children with cis and can relate our firsthand experiences, that are far superior to yours and your friend's, as to how a deaf child with a ci learns language, acquires langauge, develops and then utilizes speech and deal with the hearing world on a daily basis.

Ain't no book or research study that can teach you and your pals what we have already learned!

 

[shel90]

Ah but Jackie, Cloggy and I have the personal experience of actually raising children with cis and can relate our firsthand experiences, that are far superior to yours and your friend's, as to how a deaf child with a ci learns language, acquires langauge, develops and then utilizes speech and deal with the hearing world on a daily basis.

Ain't no book or research study that can teach you and your pals what we have already learned!

Again, u assumed without asking...I have some friends who are CI users.

Oh, if children with CIs acquire language and utilize sppech and deal with the hearing world, how come I am seeing numerous of children with CIs being referred to my school because they were unable to develop spoken language? Unless u were just talking about your children only?

 

[rick48]

Yes, rick, generalizability is a word,..."

Please cite the dictionary in which it can be found.

"And I completely disagree..."

Wow, that's a shocker, what next you and Shel will agree with each other and tell each other how right the other one is?

That's your definition, not mine. They are not mutually exclusive as some people have both oral and sign skills.


"And of course you would discount a solution that has proven success in both signing classroom and oral classroom, as well as several other applications."

I am aware of its limited use and application and as a game and as a diversion it serves its purpose but as you and your other cohort, DD, proposed it as a replacement for CART services, that is one of the dumbest things even you have come up with.



"What about equal access rick?"

I am all for it, everyone should have a hackie sack!

 

[shel90]

Yes, rick, generalizability is a word,..."

Please cite the dictionary in which it can be found.

"And I completely disagree..."

Wow, that's a shocker, what next you and Shel will agree with each other and tell each other how right the other one is?

That's your definition, not mine. They are not mutually exclusive as some people have both oral and sign skills.


"And of course you would discount a solution that has proven success in both signing classroom and oral classroom, as well as several other applications."

I am aware of its limited use and application and as a game and as a diversion it serves its purpose but as you and your other cohort, DD, proposed it as a replacement for CART services, that is one of the dumbest things even you have come up with.



"What about equal access rick?"

I am all for it, everyone should have a hackie sack!

I thought u and others wanted the personal insults to stop?

 

[rick48]

Again, u assumed without asking...I have some friends who are CI users.

Oh, if children with CIs acquire language and utilize sppech and deal with the hearing world, how come I am seeing numerous of children with CIs being referred to my school because they were unable to develop spoken language? Unless u were just talking about your children only?

I have friends who are ci users but I would not eqate that friendship witht he actual experience of raising a ci child.

"Numerous" 6 out of 40 is hardly numerous. And cut the BS, if you really are an educator, as you claim to be, then you already know that if you want to know why these kids are where they are, then look at the parents and that will give you a big clue as to why they are years behind in their language development.

Its not the ci, its not the "professionals" its the parents in almost every instance.

 

[shel90]

I have friends who are ci users but I would not eqate that friendship witht he actual experience of raising a ci child.

"Numerous" 6 out of 40 is hardly numerous. And cut the BS, if you really are an educator, as you claim to be, then you already know that if you want to know why these kids are where they are, then look at the parents and that will give you a big clue as to why they are years behind in their language development.

Its not the ci, its not the "professionals" its the parents in almost every instance.

I have never blamed the CIs..where did that come from?

Yes, it is the professionals too... Most parents are not like u..they are scared and frightened and the professionals need to understand deaf and deaf needs from all ranges not just one approach only cuz the parents will believe whatever they tell them. Most parents dont take the time to research like u and others here on AD do. U should be so proud of yourself.

Right and I have always said..why not the parents be the models for spoken language and the schools be the models for sign language and spoken language. I said that in a post somewhere else so did u miss that post?

What BS? Now, u are calling me a liar as well? Iam lying about the professionals who advised my mom that I and my brother didnt need sign language??? I am lying that we suffered from the oral-only method? Iam lying about what I see daily? I am lying about what many of my deaf friends have grown up orally and wished they had been exposed to sign language? Am I lying about all that?


Whatever happened to asking first before jumping to conclusions?

Where did 6 out of 40 come from?I have met thousands of deaf/hoh people since I became involved with the Deaf community about 10 years ago. Again with the assumptions.

This afternoon I went out with a group of my girlfriends and we were discussing oral education..all of them said they want BOTH not just one or the other. Dont their wishes amount for anything?

 

[shel90]

Rick..u keep making all these assumptions about me without asking me or giving me a chance to answer. Why?

 

[jag]

Can I jump in here and tell you what I found out during lunch today? I met a family that knew me when I moved here in 2002 (Moorhead, Minnesota) and their grade school daughter is deaf. She cannot read lips very well and the schools are refusing to provide a certified interpreter for her. She appears intelligent to me, so that's not the problem. The problem is this girl needs help now and no one is willing to bend. .

Pete have her parents tried contacting MSAD? Perhaps they could help. Also try looking in the Wrights Law site to see if there is a lawyer in the Moorehead area who does pro bono (or little cost) work. I'll check it out myself but it sounds alot like this child could have a good due process case, especially 'if' her parents requested a Prior Written Notice when the school refused an interpetor. I wish them luck. But they might want to check into MSAD for now, the program was good enough for a family to move here from down south a few years ago after researching different deaf schools. The dorms open on Sunday nights and the kids get out at 1 on friday to go home. Her local district would have to provide transportation. We only live 1 hr away from faribault so our daughter goes up on Mon. morning. There is probably the school calendar up now which would show when they dorms are open after holidays and such. I'm thinking that Moorhead to Faribault is 2 hrs or so?

BUT having said that I can see why they wouldn't want to send their young daughter to a residential school. I wish them luck in pushing the interpetor issue. Tell them to increase their success in getting a interpetor they need to establish that it's appropriate for her and they need to get in writing WHY the school is refusing. (PWN) My guess is when confronted with that request things might change for the better, if not if they've done the research needed (case law and all the studies they can find that pertain to a child using ASL, there are people here who probably have that) they probalby can get what she needs. I do hope they rather then signing the IEP they requested more information or due process.

What she gets does depend on how far they are willing to go.

 

[jag]

Again, u assumed without asking...I have some friends who are CI users.

Oh, if children with CIs acquire language and utilize sppech and deal with the hearing world, how come I am seeing numerous of children with CIs being referred to my school because they were unable to develop spoken language? Unless u were just talking about your children only?

My guess? Parents who don't montitor their children to see if there are problems. But that's life. Those of you working with the kids struggling really do need to begin working on an informational brochure for parents who are getting their children implanted, perhaps then parents will recognize when things really aren't as rosey as they think they are.

BTW , I do have experience as a dear/hoh person, a HA user and a CI user. Comparing the HA and the CI, the child (or adult) will get more from the CI.

BUt there again alot depends on the skill of their audiologist. Without really good maps developing spoken and heard language would be more of a challenge. and posts on a CI list I'm on do lead me to believe that some CI audiologists are really crappy, just like any other speiclity we can talk about.

 

[jillio]

Again, u assumed without asking...I have some friends who are CI users.

Oh, if children with CIs acquire language and utilize sppech and deal with the hearing world, how come I am seeing numerous of children with CIs being referred to my school because they were unable to develop spoken language? Unless u were just talking about your children only?

Exactly. And I have the experience of dealing with Ci users on a daily basis whose parents functioned under some of the same assumptions that rick, cloggy, and jackie make, and those students are now suffering the consequences of having decisions made for them that were based on a parent's inabiity to face the reality of their deafness. The CI students sho have been placed in an oral environment are sufferingthe same academic, social, and personal problems tht any other deaf child raised in an oral environment suffer. That is was is not being recoognized here.

 

[jillio]

I have never blamed the CIs..where did that come from?

Yes, it is the professionals too... Most parents are not like u..they are scared and frightened and the professionals need to understand deaf and deaf needs from all ranges not just one approach only cuz the parents will believe whatever they tell them. Most parents dont take the time to research like u and others here on AD do. U should be so proud of yourself.

Right and I have always said..why not the parents be the models for spoken language and the schools be the models for sign language and spoken language. I said that in a post somewhere else so did u miss that post?

What BS? Now, u are calling me a liar as well? Iam lying about the professionals who advised my mom that I and my brother didnt need sign language??? I am lying that we suffered from the oral-only method? Iam lying about what I see daily? I am lying about what many of my deaf friends have grown up orally and wished they had been exposed to sign language? Am I lying about all that?


Whatever happened to asking first before jumping to conclusions?

Where did 6 out of 40 come from?I have met thousands of deaf/hoh people since I became involved with the Deaf community about 10 years ago. Again with the assumptions.

This afternoon I went out with a group of my girlfriends and we were discussing oral education..all of them said they want BOTH not just one or the other. Dont their wishes amount for anything?

We have a "professonal" right here that advocates that children be palced in an oral environment untilthey are 5 or 6 years old, and if they are then showing and problem with oral language development, switch to sign. So how can it be said that the professionals are not responsible?

When jackie, rick, and cloggy are all accounted for, that is still only 4 CI children, which is considerably less than the number I deal with on a daily bais, and hardly a representative sample of ALL CI users in the U.S.

I have experience raising a deaf child without a CI, and using the methods which I propose in education. That experience doesn't seem to count for much around here. I also have the experience of being involved in students attending a deaf school who have been implanted and have received exactly the educational environment and home environment that I propose. That experience doesn't seem to count for much around here. The deaf people who have spoken out regarding their experience around here doesn't seem to count for much around here. The research and studies that have been used to support my position doesn't seem to count for much around here. Is it only limited experience of 3 individuals that is valuable?

 

[Cloggy]

We have a "professonal" right here that advocates that children be palced in an oral environment untilthey are 5 or 6 years old, and if they are then showing and problem with oral language development, switch to sign. So how can it be said that the professionals are not responsible?

When jackie, rick, and cloggy are all accounted for, that is still only 4 CI children, which is considerably less than the number I deal with on a daily
bais, and hardly a representative sample of ALL CI users in the U.S.

I guess they fall in the same category as 1 deaf child raised with sign...
4 good experiences with CI and 1 good experience with sign.... Yours is fine to use as a standard, but ours... well, that's biased....
Sure....

I have experience raising a deaf child without a CI, and using the methods which I propose in education. That experience doesn't seem to count for much around here.

Oh, it does count. Just like our experiences count....

I also have the experience of being involved in students attending a deaf school who have been implanted and have received exactly the educational environment and home environment that I propose. That experience doesn't seem to count for much around here. The deaf people who have spoken out regarding their experience around here doesn't seem to count for much around here.

On the contrairy, it weights heavily. Just like first-hand experience form CI-users and parents of children with CI weighs heavy. And your experience... as a mother of a deaf child, and your experience as an educator..

The research and studies that have been used to support my position doesn't seem to count for much around here. Is it only limited experience of 3 individuals that is valuable?

Actually, I have not seen any research from you. Granted I have been away for 3 week, but the other 35 weeks, I have seen nothing.
I (and others) have requested some info, but it seems that you feel it's not worth to share it.... either that or it just doesn't exist...
(yeh, yeh, sure, I missed them all....)

So, again, please share some research with us.... we're still looking forward to it..

 

[Cloggy]

.........Jackie, can you please do me a favor? You are obviously experienced in what you are doing. But, that experience (training, as well) cannot substitute for life experience that many, if not all of us, have experienced. You may need to learn how to rewrite the books that you learned all your information from.

WOW, you really know how to insult people... you got it down to an art.

A mother of a deaf child, fighting for the rights of her child, and you dare to say that she needs some life experience....

Are you as artistic in apologizing....???

 

[jillio]

I guess they fall in the same category as 1 deaf child raised with sign...
4 good experiences with CI and 1 good experience with sign.... Yours is fine to use as a standard, but ours... well, that's biased....
Sure....
Oh, it does count. Just like our experiences count....
On the contrairy, it weights heavily. Just like first-hand experience form CI-users and parents of children with CI weighs heavy. And your experience... as a mother of a deaf child, and your experience as an educator..

Actually, I have not seen any research from you. Granted I have been away for 3 week, but the other 35 weeks, I have seen nothing.
I (and others) have requested some info, but it seems that you feel it's not worth to share it.... either that or it just doesn't exist...
(yeh, yeh, sure, I missed them all....)

So, again, please share some research with us.... we're still looking forward to it..

One good experience with sign? You really do refuse to give credence to the many many deaf individuals on this board that have had positive experiences with sign.

And cloggy, my experience goes well beyond that which I have had with my own child.

You have been provided plenty of information. It has been your choice to discount anything provided with sacasm, personal insult, and childish behaviors. It has become obvious that providing information for you is a wast of time, because you have no motivation to learn and understand that which is provided. If it doesn't fit neatly into your limited schema, you simply throw it out rather than integrating it.

And cloggy, why is it that you refuse to respond to the numerous questions regarding Lotte's language delays? You want to paint a rosy picture of Lotte functioning as a hearing child, yet admit to her having language delays. Hearing children generally do not have language delays cloggy. Hearing children do not need surgical intervention to permit sound perception. Andt hose language delays that you have admitted that your daughter has will have, and do have, an impact on her functioning in all areas. Your refusal to recognize that is simply more evidence of your narrow mindedness and singleness of purpose.

 

[jillio]

WOW, you really know how to insult people... you got it down to an art.

A mother of a deaf child, fighting for the rights of her child, and you dare to say that she needs some life experience....

Are you as artistic in apologizing....???

There is no insult in Pek's statement other than the one that you have created in your own mind. And simply because a mother is fighting for the rights of her deaf child does not mean that her experience is equal to that of others with greater and more varied experience. And personally, I agree with Pek. Jackie experience is extremely limited, as she herself has admitted that she has not been exposed to any method of education other than oral. Quantity in and of itself is not superior to quality.

 

[rockdrummer]

Oh Lord!!

 

[jillio]

Oh Lord!!

Could you elaborate, please?

 

[Cloggy]

One good experience with sign? You really do refuse to give credence to the many many deaf individuals on this board that have had positive experiences with sign.

And yet, you counted only 4 with CI on this board.... So you forgetting all the others is OK..???
How is it - living in your own bubble??

........You have been provided plenty of information. It has been your choice to discount anything provided with sacasm, personal insult, and childish behaviors. It has become obvious that providing information for you is a wast of time, because you have no motivation to learn and understand that which is provided. If it doesn't fit neatly into your limited schema, you simply throw it out rather than integrating it.

So I guess, reading through all the babbling of you, that you don't have any articles to share... That is disappointing, I had expected that you had something to share...
Guess the group of parents that raise their child with sign is not big enough to justify a proper study... (And I know you find it important that the group is big enough to justify any conclusions.)

And cloggy, why is it that you refuse to respond to the numerous questions regarding Lotte's language delays?

I have?

You want to paint a rosy picture of Lotte functioning as a hearing child, yet admit to her having language delays. Hearing children generally do not have language delays cloggy. Hearing children do not need surgical intervention to permit sound perception. Andt hose language delays that you have admitted that your daughter has will have, and do have, an impact on her functioning in all areas. Your refusal to recognize that is simply more evidence of your narrow mindedness and singleness of purpose.

Children that have been born hearing haven't been deaf for 2+ years....... .sounds logical to me....

BTW... what was the topic again....???

 

[rockdrummer]

Could you elaborate, please?

Sure, sometimes it seems like I'm watching a bunch of kids arguing.