District files appeal against deaf student

[jillio]

Here in California none of the college students that use CART have had to sue for it. The company providing CART for my daughter this fall was the company that set up CART at CSUN. There have been 2 due process cases for CART at the High School level, one of them being my daughter's.

That was only mentioned because rick implied that I was not doing my job in a competent manner. What, do you two coordinate your time on the forum so that you always have back up?

 

[jillio]

I know Dean's List students in college with GPAs above 3.5 who use CART as well as HS Honors students with high 90s averages who are using CART. They do not have "gaps" in thier education but take advantage of services that are being provided to maintain their status of academically successful students.

Of course the gaps are filled. THEY ARE USING CART TO FILL THE GAPS.

Too bad you and your pals equate the use of services and technology with some kind of deficiency either in their academics and/or their language methodology.

No, you assume that is the way we equatye it simply because youthink it gives you a point to argue. How old are you...3?

If you advise your students to utilize CART then presumably you are aware of its advanatges, why you persist in arguing with Jackie about this issue then is mind boggling. If your concern is truly, as you tell us ad nauseum, with the plight of deaf students regardless of language methodology then you should have been at the forefront of supporting Jackie, not attacking her.

Obviously you ahve not been reading the posts because you ahve completely misread everything. I have never dicounted the use of CART...I have objected to the oral only approach that created the situation in the first place. And you have validated one of my points....putting it in writing doesn't necessarily lead to comprehension. You have great difficulty understanding what is in writing.

 

[shel90]

No, Jackie you have not. All you have done is come here with an open mind and explain to others how you are raising your child. That is just a tactic she and her two pals use, just invent a phrase and keep repeating it.

Amusing isn't it that the one person on this board who constantly tells others they are wrong and who refuses to acknowledge that there is no one way to raise a deaf child is accusing you of pushing an agenda down someone's throat.
Rick

Yea Rick, the 3 of us got together and invented this tactic to play games with all of u. We just do this for fun!

If we r doing this for fun, then why r there so many deaf children struggling to keep up with their hearing counterparts? Oh..never mind..it is something that all 3 of us invented.

U and others keep talking about your children, we keep talking about all children. Big difference..a BIG one.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Obviously you ahve not been reading the posts because you ahve completely misread everything. I have never dicounted the use of CART...I have objected to the oral only approach that created the situation in the first place.

I have a question what do you mean by "created by the situation in the first place." You have said that your students use CART, do they need CART because they were in the oral only approach. Are you trying to tell me that my daughter needs CART because she was raised in oral envirnoment. The person that will be providing CART says that she has all sorts of deaf clients, oral only, ASL, signing, and commmunication of all. I would think that CART will benefit all sorts of students.

And you have validated one of my points....putting it in writing doesn't necessarily lead to comprehension.

You are right putting it in writing does not mean my daughter will comprend everything but if we have it in writing then if there is a word she doesn't know we can go over it at home since she will a disk with the complete transcript of her classess.
You have great difficulty understanding what is in writing.

I have a question for all of you what is the youngest age that you have seen a student use CART.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

This is probable the wrong thread but I have a question to whoever is able to answer it. My husbnd was telling me about a co-worker. The co-wrker is deaf. I know that there is well over 50 people there. He said that they do not provider interpeters for her during meetings. I thought that an employer who has more then 15 employees had to provider interpeters. Am I right or what does the law exactly say.

 

[rjr2006]

Jackie,
I am a young adult and I use CART for VR meetings and I plan on asking the college to provide CART to deliver big vocabulary words in one of my classes.

 

[rjr2006]

This is probable the wrong thread but I have a question to whoever is able to answer it. My husbnd was telling me about a co-worker. The co-wrker is deaf. I know that there is well over 50 people there. He said that they do not provider interpeters for her during meetings. I thought that an employer who has more then 15 employees had to provider interpeters. Am I right or what does the law exactly say.

well, if the employer has more than 15 employees, he/she IS REQUIRED to provide interpreters.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

well, if the employer has more than 15 employees, he/she IS REQUIRED to provide interpreters.

That is what I remember but I wasn't sure. I have another question so where would this young lady go to if her jwill not provide an interpeter.

 

[rjr2006]

she can file a complaint at EEOC
U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC)

 

[rick48]

Obviously you ahve....in writing.

Blah, blah, blah

Wake me up when you say something relevent.

 

[rick48]

U and others keep talking about your children, we keep talking about all children. Big difference..a BIG one.

Actually, I was talking about other children when I mentioned the academically successful kids I know who have used CART in both HS and college.

 

[rick48]

No it won't because you have already said that you sent the money order anonymously. Can't prove it was you. And I am not the one using the weasle tactics. Igf you had any intention of being honest and up front, you would have made the donation and verified it. You are the one acting like a weasle. Trying to get oh, so agressive instead of calmlly handling the matter like a man.

What is the color of the sun on your planet? "Handling the matter like a man"??? Bizare!

What has got you bee in a bonnet is that, as usual, I am a step ahead of you. I knew you would contact St. Rita's asking them to tell you the name of the person making a $20 donation and I also correctly assumed that they would violate confidentiality by telling you that information.

Bottomline, I lost a bet and paid up, I do not need to "verify" anything. Its over as far as I am concerned. Time for you to get a grip and move on. You really need to get a life if this is what consumes your day!

 

[deafdyke]

Hey, sorry I have been away for a few days. Just now got back on the net.
jag, there have ALWAYS been hoh kids who have done well with minimal/ no accomondations. That doesn't mean that everyone will do that well. According to your daughter's experiance jackie's daughter should do just as well b/c your daughter did really well even without an IEP or a 766 plan.
Oh and the attitudes towards kids with classic disablities were totally different in the old days. If you were dhh (or had CP or were blind/low vision) and were mainstreamed it was thought that you were an acheiver. Nowadays, you tend to be lumped in with the other sped kids as being a "Ummm who's President Bush?" type of dumbass unless you're a high acheiver type.
Oh, and I think that a soundfield system is a great idear overall........there was a thing in the NY Times about how its been shown to increase acheivement for even hearing students. They also use it sometimes for kids with ADD and other LDs.
Jackie, my teachers liked me, but they didn't give me wicked good grades b/c I had a personality.

I do not want to improve my daughter's grades, how much higher can she get. She already has A's and B's more A's then B's. I WANT EQUAL ACCESS. LISTEN ONCE AGAIN EQUAL ACCESS

She ALREADY DOES!
If she didn't have equal access, then she would not be doing as well as she has been! Yeah, she doesn't hear everything, but HELLO! Even HEARING people don't always hear 100% what's going on! Ever read that short story by Kurt Vonngut Harrison Bergeron? It totally dead on satirzies what you're trying to do (total and complete equalization) If she's doing so well, then WHY the heck does she even NEED something like CART anyway?
You know.........maybe your daughter doesn't nessarily need CART. Maybe a better alternative might be to change the seating arrangements. Like instead of the traditional "teacher at the helm with kids in rows" arrangement, do an arrangement where the kids are in a circle. Lots of kids do better in that sort of seatinng arrangment.

My daughter does well in school because of her determination not because of a notetaker. Don't forget I have already told you she spends about 4 hours a day on school work. It can range from 2 to 6 hours a day.

And? That's the same for most other high school kids.
Oh and your insistion that only bad kids go to the deaf school is redicilous....that's like saying ALL city schools are horrible and have bad kids attending them.
The quality of deaf schools varies tremendously. There are some VERY good ones, and even the not so good ones have great EI programs.
Oh, and I think that deaf schools should make it a point to have programs to make it easier for families of kids with disabilites to relocate to their schools....like cheaper housing costs etc.

 

[jag]

Hey, sorry I have been away for a few days. Just now got back on the net.
jag, there have ALWAYS been hoh kids who have done well with minimal/ no accomondations. That doesn't mean that everyone will do that well. .

No Sh-T Sherlock.

According to your daughter's experiance jackie's daughter should do just as well b/c your daughter did really well even without an IEP or a 766 plan.
.

Please show me where I said that every child would succeed the same? Can't I was just stating that it is NOT all doom and gloom and many DO succeed quite well.

Oh and the attitudes towards kids with classic disablities were totally different in the old days. If you were dhh (or had CP or were blind/low vision) and were mainstreamed it was thought that you were an acheiver. Nowadays, you tend to be lumped in with the other sped kids as being a "Ummm who's President Bush?" type of dumbass unless you're a high acheiver type. .

You seem to believe that every single school is the same in their dealing with the 'classic' or dhh disablities. Sorry but schools differ quite alot, even among those in one state. Large districts also have schools dealing differently with both the 'classic' and dhh students. BTW, the so called 'classic' disabilities do tend to get treated the same way in deaf schools as they do in the regular schools, that's life. That's also just my experience, but that encompasses those in the school who enjoy 'dealing' with my daughter and those who 'tolerate' dealing with her. All in all she is still teaching the kids tolerance and that not everyone is alike.

Oh, and I think that a soundfield system is a great idear overall........there was a thing in the NY Times about how its been shown to increase acheivement for even hearing students.
.

Nice to see I'm being repeated. Glad the kids are all getting something out of the soundfields there to.

They also use it sometimes for kids with ADD and other LDs. .

thought that was what I'd said. ADD/HD or CAPD...etc

Jackie, my teachers liked me, but they didn't give me wicked good grades b/c I had a personality.

.

Grades done on math facts and english science etc. while they can be 'fudged' to seem better then the student actually performs are much harder to fudge when testing for actual conprehension. Now if we talk about writing papers and such then yeah you're at the teachers mercy.

She ALREADY DOES!
If she didn't have equal access, then she would not be doing as well as she has been! Yeah, she doesn't hear everything, but HELLO! Even HEARING people don't always hear 100% what's going on! Ever read that short story by Kurt Vonngut Harrison Bergeron? It totally dead on satirzies what you're trying to do (total and complete equalization) If she's doing so well, then WHY the heck does she even NEED something like CART anyway?
You know.........maybe your daughter doesn't nessarily need CART. Maybe a better alternative might be to change the seating arrangements. Like instead of the traditional "teacher at the helm with kids in rows" arrangement, do an arrangement where the kids are in a circle. Lots of kids do better in that sort of seatinng arrangment.
.

Just be glad that someone is willing to go the distance to try to get deaf/hoh students who are doing ok better access to the classroom. Without the PARENTS who are willing to spend their TIME and live with the STRESS of fighting for better access the status quo would remain hoh kids being treated like they are mentally impaired. (at least that's what you keep stating)
Good for Jackie.

And? That's the same for most other high school kids.
Oh and your insistion that only bad kids go to the deaf school is redicilous....that's like saying ALL city schools are horrible and have bad kids attending them.
The quality of deaf schools varies tremendously. There are some VERY good ones, and even the not so good ones have great EI programs.
Oh, and I think that deaf schools should make it a point to have programs to make it easier for families of kids with disabilites to relocate to their schools....like cheaper housing costs etc.

My understanding when Jackie said 'bad' kids was the way the other staff seem to be referring to kids who are having problems with understanding using their CI's. Not that the kid was bad but that their learning wasn't going as it should so that was bad. Oh what the heck, it probably was a poor choice of words on her part but none of us, including you or I are perfect and we all tend to screw up somewhere along the line.

It's not the point of families being able to have it easier to relocate, it's the point that some JOBS don't allow for families to relocate. And then again there may be more then one child in the family so the decision has to be made taking the whole family into account. Housing costs are the least of the matter.

 

[deafdyke]

Can't I was just stating that it is NOT all doom and gloom and many DO succeed quite well.

Yes, I know............but generally mainstreaming as a whole hasn't translated into huge acheivement gains for dhh and other classicly disabled kids. It just seems like the students who do well in the mainstream are the ones who would have done well no matter what. It also seems like the mainstream is overidealized as an educational placement. And jag, it just seems like overkill that jackie's daughter is doing superbly educationally, but yet jackie wants something that even kids in college or in the real world workplace won't get. (except maybe at a really good/progressive Fortune 500 company) It just seems like she's asking for brand name accomondations, when generic accomondations will do just as well.
Oh, and Jackie, I was simply suggesting that maybe just maybe if your daughter had had a full toolbox of tools, she would have done extremely well minimal effort needed. Exactly like the way I can manually write, but it takesa lot of effort. I can't really concentrate on producing content. However with typing I can concentrate more on producing content. See what I mean now?

 

[jag]

Yes, I know............but generally mainstreaming as a whole hasn't translated into huge acheivement gains for dhh and other classicly disabled kids. It just seems like the students who do well in the mainstream are the ones who would have done well no matter what. It also seems like the mainstream is overidealized as an educational placement.

Ahh, still the doom and gloom. I'll repeat, not all deaf/hoh need to be mainstreamed....some are actually just regular kids who can't hear very well, those are the ones you will never hear from, and there are probably many out there.

And jag, it just seems like overkill that jackie's daughter is doing superbly educationally, but yet jackie wants something that even kids in college or in the real world workplace won't get. (except maybe at a really good/progressive Fortune 500 company) It just seems like she's asking for brand name accomondations, when generic accomondations will do just as well.

And I'll repeat. without parents like Jackie the status quo will remain the same. She and others like her who put their lives under the stress of due process hearings and are willing to move into the court areas are the ones that will make 'mainstreaming' a success for many more kids with disabilites. Having argued with school staff on needs of my 'classicly' disabled daughter I can assure you many of us just say the hell with it and find somewhere else to go. Being part of the community you grow up in is great. I wish it was easier. You see I don't need 'you' to instruct me about the pitfalls of mainstreaming. BTDT and really do get quite annoyed with your lectures. Thank you very much.
And again, Good luck Jackie.

Oh, and Jackie, I was simply suggesting that maybe just maybe if your daughter had had a full toolbox of tools, she would have done extremely well minimal effort needed. Exactly like the way I can manually write, but it takesa lot of effort. I can't really concentrate on producing content. However with typing I can concentrate more on producing content. See what I mean now?

If you read this thread or wherever you'd actually see that Jackie has said her daughter does translate for her deaf friends who don't speak. So ASL is in her tool box aready I think.

And I'll repeat, rather then act like the due process that Jackie is going through for her daughter is a unnecessary thing, you should all be encouraging her and hoping that everything is decided for the student, especially if this goes through the courts, once it's case law decided for the student, it becomes easier for others to get the same services to increase their participation in the classroom.

Btw, evidently your idea of equal access and Jackies idea of equal access differ. Jackies working on making sure her daughter has another of the 'tools' in the toolbox available, if you insist on full toolboxes this is another tool. Have a nice day, gotta get to bed.

 

[jillio]

What is the color of the sun on your planet? "Handling the matter like a man"??? Bizare!

What has got you bee in a bonnet is that, as usual, I am a step ahead of you. I knew you would contact St. Rita's asking them to tell you the name of the person making a $20 donation and I also correctly assumed that they would violate confidentiality by telling you that information.

Bottomline, I lost a bet and paid up, I do not need to "verify" anything. Its over as far as I am concerned. Time for you to get a grip and move on. You really need to get a life if this is what consumes your day!

What world do you live in? I don't think you would have sent a money order in under the name rick48....and that is the only id I have for you. For your information, what I asked St. Rita was if they received a donation in the amount of 20.00 from a private citizen anytime in the past month. And the answer was no. And until you prove that you have paid up ont he bet, since it was owed to me, it will be considered that you did indeed welch on it. But that's what was expected from you anyway, so it's really not a surprise.

 

[jillio]

Yea Rick, the 3 of us got together and invented this tactic to play games with all of u. We just do this for fun!

If we r doing this for fun, then why r there so many deaf children struggling to keep up with their hearing counterparts? Oh..never mind..it is something that all 3 of us invented.

U and others keep talking about your children, we keep talking about all children. Big difference..a BIG one.

I guess they think that they are so important in the grand scheme of things that we have nothing better to do with our time that sit around thinking of way sto pick on them.

And that is the key: they are talking about their children, we are talking about all deaf children. HUGE difference.

 

[jillio]

I have a question for all of you what is the youngest age that you have seen a student use CART.

Well, obviously jackie they can't use it if they can't read. That should tell you everything right there. And as students don't have class lectures, per say, in the elementasry grades, it would not be very useful there either.

 

[jillio]

The fact of the matter remains, that no matter how agressively the oral only method is defended, and no matter how many ways they attempt to divert the subject to prevent answering direct questions, even with allt he accommodations provided through the ADA, deaf students literacy skills are still falling beneath the levels they should be. The decline began with the influx of oralism, and has seen a continued decrease. The scores began to equalize somewhat when early intervention programs utilizing sign language and TC programs gained in popularity, but have seen begun to decline again with the strong push toward complete mainstreaming and the rise in orlaism that correlates with the use of CI in the student population. So defend it all you will, it still has a negative effect on deaf studnet's as a group. One or two successes do not negate the overall negative effects. Perhaps there are those that find this situation acceptable as long as their own child is doing okay, but Ifind it, for deaf children as a heterogenous group, unacceptable.