District files appeal against deaf student

[shel90]

And I agree with Jazzy--I can pick out a deaf/hoh voice as soon as I hear it.

I am sure you probable can pick you a deaf/hh voice in your current position because as you have mention before you are dealing with college students that have not had success in the oral route. Then of course you can pick out the voice and most people would be able too.[/QUOTE]

Wow.. with the speech skills again? Are speech skills that important? What about the deaf people's knowledge and their sucesses in their professional lives? I guess in the hearing world, the most amazing thing deaf people can accomplish is excellent speech skills?? That was all what I was told or applauded for...my excellent speech skills but nothing else. I have encountered hearing people who didnt realize that I was deaf until they realize that I was having a hard time understanding them. When I tell them I am deaf, they go on and on how well I can speak and it gets to the point where it becomes the point of the conversation and other topics get forgotten. I am soooo sick and tired of it..I would like to have a conversation about other things besides my speech skills. It gets boring very fast!

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Jackie
Do the news bother to interview successful deaf people who have no oral skills? Not that I have read any... nor do deaf teachers at deaf schools who have worked hard with those who are language deprived and got them to catch up get public recognization? I dont know of any...if there are none, then there is a huge bias with the media!

Jackie

Shel, I do not have a lot of experience with the media so I cannot say if they are bias or not. My daughter's story has been in the media because I have contacted them because I wanted to put pressure on the school district. They have done several stories not because my daughter is oral but because we sued the school district and won and they still will not provide CART, which is why this thread started in the first place. I couldn't tell you if my daughter was just a signer maybe they would do stories or not. Currently we have one TV reporter that is investiaging this story line. The reason that she is interested in story is because she has taken several ASL classes in college. If there is a bias or not it wasn't created by me or hearing parents of deaf children.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

[Wow.. with the speech skills again? Are speech skills that important? What about the deaf people's knowledge and their sucesses in their professional lives? I guess in the hearing world, the most amazing thing deaf people can accomplish is excellent speech skills?? That was all what I was told or applauded for...my excellent speech skills but nothing else. I have encountered hearing people who didnt realize that I was deaf until they realize that I was having a hard time understanding them. When I tell them I am deaf, they go on and on how well I can speak and it gets to the point where it becomes the point of the conversation and other topics get forgotten. I am soooo sick and tired of it..I would like to have a conversation about other things besides my speech skills. It gets boring very fast![/QUOTE]

Shel the only reason I mention speech was because Jazzy said that her husband can tell if someone is deaf/HH. This is why I mention it. If not I wouldn't have. As for me and my family speech is not the end all, it is the bonus. I have also come across where people find out my kids are deaf and they have just focus on their speech skills instead of everything else that they have be able to accomplish. My children are amazing. They are smart, caring, and kind children that have great speech. But no it is not everything in our lives. My kids know how much I love them and how proud I am of them.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

U dont get it. That is all I am saying. I do know for fact John Tracy told my parent oral was must and signing was wrong. my parents had no choice at that time and they followed their method. I do blame John Tracy for lying to my parents about me. If you do not buy it then u do not know me or others at all.

Jazzy,
Our family did follow the John Tracy approach. They are still very oral but they are not like they use to be. They do not tell parents now that oral is the best and only way. I know they did use to do that, there are still employees there that were probable around when you were young, so they have told me these horror stories.
I am sorry about that but just because that was the way it use to be doesn't mean it still is the same way.
The new technology gives parents more options.
I really so sorry you had to go through what you went through. From the beginning of our journey with our kids we heard stories like yours, I was very aware of the failures that could happen with the oral method. I was always checking with my children's teachers, always observing them to make sure they were on the right path.

 

[deafdyke]

*Buzzes in* What is Disabilty education law for a thousand Alex?
Jackie, I can tell you already that it's pretty much a lost cause. You're going to be laughed out of court. Yes, there are students who have received CART, but generally those are kids who weren't acheiving with a traditional notetaker. I know you want to make it easier for your daughter, and that's a very noble goal. However, the courts in Rowley stated that special ed accomondations weren't designed to equalize dhh kids 100%. All a school can give you legally is appropreate accomondations.......not nessarily the best accomondations, but APPROPREATE accomondations.
The gross majority of mainstream sped departments will try to get away with only giving "classical" disabilty students MINIMAL accomondations. After all,(sarcasm) it worked for one kid.......should work for EVERYONE.(sarcasm)
One thing that the pro mainstreamers don't tell you is that it can be VERY exeedingly difficult to get really good accomondations!
I really think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. If your daughter was borderline failing or whatever, it would be different. But what you're doing is pretty much equalivant to those parents who misuse IEPs for their (pretty much typical) kids to give them an edge in AP classes or college placement.
Hey, I"M multiple/severely handicapped (since I have a syndrome which causes learning disabilites, low muscle tone as well as hearing loss)
but I didn't get a notetaker until I was a sophmore in high school! (and trust me.........it wasn't due to lack of advocacy!)

 

[jillio]

And I agree with Jazzy--I can pick out a deaf/hoh voice as soon as I hear it.

I am sure you probable can pick you a deaf/hh voice in your current position because as you have mention before you are dealing with college students that have not had success in the oral route. Then of course you can pick out the voice and most people would be able too.[/QUOTE]

Where did you get the idea that my students had not been educated and socailized orally? And if a student is totally ASL based and uses no voice, they wouldnd't have a deaf voice to pick out now, would they?

 

[jillio]

U dont get it. That is all I am saying. I do know for fact John Tracy told my parent oral was must and signing was wrong. my parents had no choice at that time and they followed their method. I do blame John Tracy for lying to my parents about me. If you do not buy it then u do not know me or others at all.

Jazzy,
Our family did follow the John Tracy approach. They are still very oral but they are not like they use to be. They do not tell parents now that oral is the best and only way. I know they did use to do that, there are still employees there that were probable around when you were young, so they have told me these horror stories.
I am sorry about that but just because that was the way it use to be doesn't mean it still is the same way.
The new technology gives parents more options.
I really so sorry you had to go through what you went through. From the beginning of our journey with our kids we heard stories like yours, I was very aware of the failures that could happen with the oral method. I was always checking with my children's teachers, always observing them to make sure they were on the right path.

How is it that John Tracy Clinic can be an oral istitution, and not convey the message that oral is best?

How exactly, does new technology give parents more options? Aren't the options still oral, TC, or sign based?

 

[jillio]

*Buzzes in* What is Disabilty education law for a thousand Alex?
Jackie, I can tell you already that it's pretty much a lost cause. You're going to be laughed out of court. Yes, there are students who have received CART, but generally those are kids who weren't acheiving with a traditional notetaker. I know you want to make it easier for your daughter, and that's a very noble goal. However, the courts in Rowley stated that special ed accomondations weren't designed to equalize dhh kids 100%. All a school can give you legally is appropreate accomondations.......not nessarily the best accomondations, but APPROPREATE accomondations.
The gross majority of mainstream sped departments will try to get away with only giving "classical" disabilty students MINIMAL accomondations. After all,(sarcasm) it worked for one kid.......should work for EVERYONE.(sarcasm)
One thing that the pro mainstreamers don't tell you is that it can be VERY exeedingly difficult to get really good accomondations!
I really think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. If your daughter was borderline failing or whatever, it would be different. But what you're doing is pretty much equalivant to those parents who misuse IEPs for their (pretty much typical) kids to give them an edge in AP classes or college placement.
Hey, I"M multiple/severely handicapped (since I have a syndrome which causes learning disabilites, low muscle tone as well as hearing loss)
but I didn't get a notetaker until I was a sophmore in high school! (and trust me.........it wasn't due to lack of advocacy!)

 

[shel90]

Jackie
Do the news bother to interview successful deaf people who have no oral skills? Not that I have read any... nor do deaf teachers at deaf schools who have worked hard with those who are language deprived and got them to catch up get public recognization? I dont know of any...if there are none, then there is a huge bias with the media!

Jackie

Shel, I do not have a lot of experience with the media so I cannot say if they are bias or not. My daughter's story has been in the media because I have contacted them because I wanted to put pressure on the school district. They have done several stories not because my daughter is oral but because we sued the school district and won and they still will not provide CART, which is why this thread started in the first place. I couldn't tell you if my daughter was just a signer maybe they would do stories or not. Currently we have one TV reporter that is investiaging this story line. The reason that she is interested in story is because she has taken several ASL classes in college. If there is a bias or not it wasn't created by me or hearing parents of deaf children.

Never said that it was created by u or the hearing parents. It is the media's preference on what stories to report on. It seems that the media feels that the public prefers to hear about miracles so they bombard the public with them and since CIs have been taken by the media as a miracle cure for deafness, they publish success oral/CI stories. There is no good balance so as a result the public gets an unbalanced view on deafness and make assumptions that all deaf people will benefit from the CI and be able to hear like hearing people so when the children do not succeed with their CIs, does the media publish those stories. As far as I know, nope.

 

[jazzy]

U dont get it. That is all I am saying. I do know for fact John Tracy told my parent oral was must and signing was wrong. my parents had no choice at that time and they followed their method. I do blame John Tracy for lying to my parents about me. If you do not buy it then u do not know me or others at all.

Jazzy,
Our family did follow the John Tracy approach. They are still very oral but they are not like they use to be. They do not tell parents now that oral is the best and only way. I know they did use to do that, there are still employees there that were probable around when you were young, so they have told me these horror stories.
I am sorry about that but just because that was the way it use to be doesn't mean it still is the same way.
The new technology gives parents more options.
I really so sorry you had to go through what you went through. From the beginning of our journey with our kids we heard stories like yours, I was very aware of the failures that could happen with the oral method. I was always checking with my children's teachers, always observing them to make sure they were on the right path.

Thank u for understanding and I am glad they changed alot since my time. Now u can understand why some of us still feel not comfortable with oral method for other deaf children. But then again I believe it is parents' right to make decision for their kids.

 

[jazzy]

I am sure you probable can pick you a deaf/hh voice in your current position because as you have mention before you are dealing with college students that have not had success in the oral route. Then of course you can pick out the voice and most people would be able too.

Wow.. with the speech skills again? Are speech skills that important? What about the deaf people's knowledge and their sucesses in their professional lives? I guess in the hearing world, the most amazing thing deaf people can accomplish is excellent speech skills?? That was all what I was told or applauded for...my excellent speech skills but nothing else. I have encountered hearing people who didnt realize that I was deaf until they realize that I was having a hard time understanding them. When I tell them I am deaf, they go on and on how well I can speak and it gets to the point where it becomes the point of the conversation and other topics get forgotten. I am soooo sick and tired of it..I would like to have a conversation about other things besides my speech skills. It gets boring very fast![/QUOTE]

Forgive me for made a comment to her about my husband can pick sound and can tell if they are D or HOH. I am not sure if deaf kids with CI talk normal alike hearing or still has deaf voice.

 

[shel90]

Wow.. with the speech skills again? Are speech skills that important? What about the deaf people's knowledge and their sucesses in their professional lives? I guess in the hearing world, the most amazing thing deaf people can accomplish is excellent speech skills?? That was all what I was told or applauded for...my excellent speech skills but nothing else. I have encountered hearing people who didnt realize that I was deaf until they realize that I was having a hard time understanding them. When I tell them I am deaf, they go on and on how well I can speak and it gets to the point where it becomes the point of the conversation and other topics get forgotten. I am soooo sick and tired of it..I would like to have a conversation about other things besides my speech skills. It gets boring very fast!

Forgive me for made a comment to her about my husband can pick sound and can tell if they are D or HOH. I am not sure if deaf kids with CI talk normal alike hearing or still has deaf voice.[/QUOTE]


I wouldnt know either but I dont really think that is the most important thing ...nice to have but not necessarily my big concern here. My biggest concern is are they able to get full access to spoken language 100% of the time?

 

[jackiesolorzano]

*Buzzes in* What is Disabilty education law for a thousand Alex?
Jackie, I can tell you already that it's pretty much a lost cause. You're going to be laughed out of court. Yes, there are students who have received CART, but generally those are kids who weren't acheiving with a traditional notetaker. I know you want to make it easier for your daughter, and that's a very noble goal. However, the courts in Rowley stated that special ed accomondations weren't designed to equalize dhh kids 100%. All a school can give you legally is appropreate accomondations.......not nessarily the best accomondations, but APPROPREATE accomondations.
The gross majority of mainstream sped departments will try to get away with only giving "classical" disabilty students MINIMAL accomondations. After all,(sarcasm) it worked for one kid.......should work for EVERYONE.(sarcasm)
One thing that the pro mainstreamers don't tell you is that it can be VERY exeedingly difficult to get really good accomondations!
I really think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. If your daughter was borderline failing or whatever, it would be different. But what you're doing is pretty much equalivant to those parents who misuse IEPs for their (pretty much typical) kids to give them an edge in AP classes or college placement.
Hey, I"M multiple/severely handicapped (since I have a syndrome which causes learning disabilites, low muscle tone as well as hearing loss)
but I didn't get a notetaker until I was a sophmore in high school! (and trust me.........it wasn't due to lack of advocacy!)

We have already won our due process case.. The school district just called the CART provider today to arrange CART services. The school district is still appealing but we have won. It is very unlikely for an appeal to win. If we would have lost at the school level we would have gone directly to the federal. I understand what you say about the school doing the least amount possible, I have seen it. The difference with us is that we have an amazing attorney. I know about the Rowley case. If I remember correctly it is the case of the student that was HH but parents were deaf. This case happen awhile ago before they included the special educations laws where a school must respect and encourage the student's preferred mode of communication.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Nope, he is not going to judge them at all. He usually corrected many friends of mine their speeches. Now one of my friend who rasied orally and now is considering CI. U know many judge me for being married my husband and I am not being part of D. I am used to it. We live an hour away from valley and I assume u still live in the SF valley. I must have missed news channel on your daughter's story last month bummer. It would be so interest to meet u all.

I just heard today that another local TV channel will be interviewing my daughter, her attorney, and me next week. The channel is FOX 11. I will post when the news story will appear on the TV if youa re interested in watching. We do not live in SF valley, we live in the other valley.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Thank u for understanding and I am glad they changed alot since my time. Now u can understand why some of us still feel not comfortable with oral method for other deaf children.
I can really understand why a lot of people are not comfortable with the oral method. As a parent though it is hard when people keep on attacking my choices and I do not mean you. I just at times feel attacked when they do not know me or my children well enough to say the things they say. But then again I believe it is parents' right to make decision for their kids.

I also feel it is a parents choice but it should be an informed choice

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I have a question for you all. Deafdyke mention the Rowley case, I want to make sure that I am accurate in my information about this case. When did this case happen? Was it the case where the student was HH and parents were deaf. Parents were asking for an interpeter and school said no because the student was doing fairly well in school. Is this also the case where they use that saying that schools do not have provide the cadiallic version of an education that a chevy gets you there and that is good enough.

 

[jillio]

Forgive me for made a comment to her about my husband can pick sound and can tell if they are D or HOH. I am not sure if deaf kids with CI talk normal alike hearing or still has deaf voice.

I wouldnt know either but I dont really think that is the most important thing ...nice to have but not necessarily my big concern here. My biggest concern is are they able to get full access to spoken language 100% of the time?[/QUOTE]

I don't know about all deaf kids with CI, but the ones I work with, and the ones my son went to school with had that quality that we all recognize.

 

[jillio]

How can you say that if the population you work with is college level? The changes I am talking about is in the past 10 to 15 years. There have be so many changes that it takes time for everything to catch up together. I have seen the results. If you meet my children in a store you would have no idea that they were deaf unless they told you. They do not have the typical deaf speech.[/QUOTE]

We know that speech skills are the most important to u judging from how u keep bringing up speech again and again. I am not talking about speech skills..I am talking about 100% access to language at all times. U even admitted that your daughter is unable to access to what her classmates are saying during classroom discussions. It is the same problem I had too and with many other deaf children and people who grew up with the oral method only. What are u talking about that with CIs are different? If things were different then we wouldnt have this problem with low literacy skills anymore, right? I am still seeing the same problems as 20 years ago..children as young as 3 and children as old as 13 to 14 being referred to my school cuz they were unable to pick up on spoken language and now have to play catch up. U even admitted that if u spot a child not picking up on oral language, u refer them to the TC classes. It is the same old story as it was 30 years ago. I really dont know what to think of this argument anymore cuz I am just seeing the same problems happening even with the more widespread use of CIs. I cant say I will support whatever works for the child cuz that means I would be ok with experimenting with different programs with each child and putting them at risk for language deprivation. I wouldnt feel good about myself if I support that approach.

This is how I feel as long as this problem still continues and I am trying to find a best solution to solve it and the only one I can think of is the BiBi approach. Yes, I understand that it is not allowed in the state of California but u have admitted that u prefer not to use sign to children until it is apparent that they are not picking up on spoken language. I guess it is personal cuz I am a deaf person myself and I just hate seeing that happen.

***nodding agreement so hard my head hurts***

 

[jillio]

We have already won our due process case.. The school district just called the CART provider today to arrange CART services. The school district is still appealing but we have won. It is very unlikely for an appeal to win. If we would have lost at the school level we would have gone directly to the federal. I understand what you say about the school doing the least amount possible, I have seen it. The difference with us is that we have an amazing attorney. I know about the Rowley case. If I remember correctly it is the case of the student that was HH but parents were deaf. This case happen awhile ago before they included the special educations laws where a school must respect and encourage the student's preferred mode of communication.

Obviously, you have not wonthe case, as the school district is appealing. The decision rests on appeal. Due process hearings are before an andministrative law judge, and he has simply ordered the school system to provide interim services pending decision by a court.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Obviously, you have not wonthe case, as the school district is appealing. The decision rests on appeal. Due process hearings are before an andministrative law judge, and he has simply ordered the school system to provide interim services pending decision by a court.

We have won. We have a verdict. You must know how rare it is to win an appeal. The judge was very clear in her judgment. She was clear in the laws that the school district was not obeying. I did a lot of research and only found one case that an appeal was won. But it really doesn't matter to me what you think. I would think that you would be pleased because of this verdict other deaf high school deaf students both oral and signers in California will now be able to you our judgement for their case.