District files appeal against deaf student

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jillio said:
rick48 said:
Jackie,

You hit the nail on the head. Because you are labeled as an oralist, certain people on this forum think that you have to justify your decision for your child and the same holds true if you chose to give your child a cochlear implant. Additionally, they do not want you to share the stories of your children's achievements and accomplishments unless you acknowledge every child who did not attain the same level of achievments and/or accomplishments as your child. Of course, that double standard does not apply to their children as they can boast all they want about them and never once mention the children who do not reach the same level of achievements and accomplishments.

That's just the way it is-hypocritical.

Rick


:bsflag: Get a grip. Tousi hit the nail on the head. Some people here cannot seem to understand discussing a point from an objective, intelligent point of view and emotional ranting. Get some therapy people!
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I can see where you might think I and maybe some others are ranting but can you see that you also do that.
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jillio said:
Why do you insist on clouding the isuses? Your grammar is not the topic here, nor is shel's. You are equating agreeing with as jumpting to the defense of. What you may need to keep in mind is it is not your grammar that people disagree with,
But that is what Tousi said that my grammar was not at the level that he expected for an educator. it is not your identity as a parent, it is not your identity as a teacher--although I do agree that an oral teacher of the deaf should be setting a much more reliable expample of the proper use of the English language thatn I have seen from you--
it is the philosophy to which you subscribe that seeks to keep deaf/Deaf individuals defined as disabled by the very practice they claim will liberate. It is the discrimination and injustice--quite often covert--that continues in the face of oralism. This subject goes much further than your daughter, or your son, or any of your preschool students. And your refusal to see that we are talking about a population, not simply your small world and family, indicates that eventhough you claim to have achieved a Masters level in education, you obviously did not acquire the ability to think critically and logically,m nor to synthesize informaiton from an objective position along the way.

Judging from some of the claims you have made, the age of the children you work with, and the locations where you say you received "training" (i.e. student teaching experience?)., I would venture the guess that you have a degree in early childhood education

[COLOR="blue" No I do not have an early education degree, although I do have a lot of training in that area. My first credential is birth through 22 years old and my second credential is k thorugh 12.[/COLOR]

that extends to teaching privilegesfrom presechool to 2nd grade. I see nothing in your posts that gives evidence of any special expertise in special education methodology,
[COLOR="blue"]You have never seen me actually teaching or in any other capacity except posting my views and beliefs. I don't understand how you assume what I can can do or what knowledge I have. I think it is kind of narrow minded of you to be able to say something like that. [/COLOR]

and no evidence of expertise in deaf education past the limited oral methods that you so tenaciously cling to. When a studnet studies deaf education, they have the opportunity to learn all of the methodologies, and are exposed to research regarding the effectiveness of various methods.

But I was expose to different methods and I choose what work for my children and then went on to get my education in that method. If you don't believe me it doesn't really matter to me. You and people with your views have no real impact in my life, in my children's lives, or in my career. It is OK with me that you feel that way. If it makes you feel better go ahead think what you want. I do not see evidence that you have been exposed to any of the knowledge that shel has obtained in the pursuit of her degrees. Yet you claim to have received the same education as shel. I seriously doubt that this even approximates the truth of the situation.
I do not claim to have received same education. I claim to have the same amount of education.

The claim that you were doing your own little experiment is an absurdity. I doubt seriously that you are familiar enough with experimental procedures to even have a grasp of design.
You do not know me well wnough to know what I know and what I do not know.
I find it odd that you came up with this assertion only when you perceived the need to defend yourself. That is tatamount to a child, when caught in a mistake, saying, "I meant to do that!" It lacks credibility and has further damaged your ability to persuade.

Please do not resort to name calling. That is the same tactic used by people the world over when they have run out of logical and convincing argument and are not open minded enough to be able to concede that perhaps they were simply ill informed and forming opinion based on less than adequate information.
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By name calling do you mean when I called Tousi a coward. What else would you call it when someone criticizes you not to you but once they think you are no longer around. If Tousi would have said the things he/she said about Shel would you feel the same way.
Jillo think about what Tousi said and how you have felt if it was someone you respect that was being treated like that.
 
rick48 said:
Jackie,

You hit the nail on the head. Because you are labeled as an oralist, certain people on this forum think that you have to justify your decision for your child and the same holds true if you chose to give your child a cochlear implant. Additionally, they do not want you to share the stories of your children's achievements and accomplishments unless you acknowledge every child who did not attain the same level of achievments and/or accomplishments as your child. Of course, that double standard does not apply to their children as they can boast all they want about them and never once mention the children who do not reach the same level of achievements and accomplishments.

That's just the way it is-hypocritical.

Rick

Rick
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Many of us have had first hand experiences of what it is like to grow up oral and there are too many of us who carry scars. I think that really sucks cuz our parents were like u and others...they thought they knew what was best for us. I just see the same patterns repeating themselves again. "My child is different..my child is not like other deaf or hoh chidlren." Well..surprise surprise...many of our parents sang the same old song. Just the same old thing when it comes to oral only approaches.

I came in here hoping to educate and maybe find a better solution to this widespread problem of low literacy skills with deaf children but guess it is not working. I have recieved so many PMs from other ADers who dont participate in these threads saying they feel the same way and have had the same experiences as I do but they dont post cuz they dont want to waste their time. I guess I should follow their advice. They say they would rather go to the more fun threads with people who wont disregard their opinions or experiences. I have to say that I agree....
 
rick48 said:
Oh no, I want them to get all the services they need to succeed, it is you I have the issue with.
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Oh if that's so that why did u tell me and deafdkye that u are done talking to us cuz we were rambling on using nonsense info? I think we have validity too. Sorry that we dont agree with u but that doesnt mean we are clueless either.
 
Kalista said:
^^^ 5 high ^^^^ :h5:
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Many thanks but just wanted to let u know that Pek1 and I have resolved this issue via PM and we are cool. :)


Everyone else..pls ..I am fine about the criticism on my grammar cuz I know that I am a good writer and I know that I dont show it here sometimes. I just need to work on using more "fancy" words in my writing. :giggle:
 
shel90 said:
I came in here hoping to educate and maybe find a better solution to this widespread problem of low literacy skills with deaf children but guess it is not working. I have reeceived so many PMs from other ADers who don't participate in these threads saying they feel the same way and have had the same experiences as I do, but they don't post cuz they don't want to waste their time. I guess I should follow their advice. They say they would rather go to the more fun threads with people who won't disregard their opinions or experiences. I have to say that I agree....
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shel90,

This is for the others here, so you might as well read it! Shel90 and I are fine with our differences and I apologized for the remarks I made, but I am seeing that she has to continually defend herself. This is getting so old and I want all of you that have been bombarding her with pm's to knock it off and leave her alone. Gee whiz, enough already. <<looking in refrigerator>> Here, shel, :cheers::cheers::cheers: six beers for the two of us. These people are enough to drive me to drink! :roll:
 
shel90 said:
Oh if that's so that why did u tell me and deafdkye that u are done talking to us cuz we were rambling on using nonsense info? I think we have validity too. Sorry that we dont agree with u but that doesnt mean we are clueless either.
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What on earth are you talking about? Grow up, stop your incessant whining and get a life! This board is not about you and how you perceive every post being written about you.
 
shel90 said:
Many of us have had first hand experiences of what it is like to grow up oral and there are too many of us who carry scars. I think that really sucks cuz our parents were like u and others...they thought they knew what was best for us. I just see the same patterns repeating themselves again. "My child is different..my child is not like other deaf or hoh chidlren." Well..surprise surprise...many of our parents sang the same old song. Just the same old thing when it comes to oral only approaches.

I came in here hoping to educate and maybe find a better solution to this widespread problem of low literacy skills with deaf children but guess it is not working. I have recieved so many PMs from other ADers who dont participate in these threads saying they feel the same way and have had the same experiences as I do but they dont post cuz they dont want to waste their time. I guess I should follow their advice. They say they would rather go to the more fun threads with people who wont disregard their opinions or experiences. I have to say that I agree....
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Sorry, but while you want to lay the mistakes of your parents at our footsteps, I am not buying into it and your little pity party. The reality is that parents such as Cloggy, Drew's Dad, Jackie and many others are quite different. They are in constant communication with their kids, observing them, monitoring them and in touch with their needs. Not one of them is saying that this is how every deaf child should be raised but saying this is what works best for our children.

We never were rigid in our decisons for our daughter and if she needed something, we provided it for her. I am truly sorry about the issues you still have from your childhood but they are just that--your issues--they are not my daughter's. While I acknowledge them and tuck them away for future reference in case they ever surface with her, I am not going to allow them to dominate how we raise our child.

She is happy and well adjusted and living her life to her fullest, and you know what, I am proud of the child we have raised--why is that so hard for you to accept?

Were we perfect in raising our child, no we were not. No one is, well there is one person who thinks she is, but making mistakes and learning from them is part of the human experience.

You may disagree with how we raised our daughter and that is your prerogative just as it is mine to tell you that your disapproval means absolutely nothing to me for like your two pals, I just consider the source.
 
jillio said:
.......... And I tend to rely on professional terminology when explaining some of the issues we discuss because when I try to explain in plain everyday language, I am asked to prove it. ......
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Also when you use professional terminology ....

So, in your study, using professional terminology automatically makes it all true....???
 
rick48 said:
What on earth are you talking about? Grow up, stop your incessant whining and get a life! This board is not about you and how you perceive every post being written about you.
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Not necessary to talk like that. U did tell us directly that u were done talking with us. Not making the board about me. Your words, not mine.

As usual, I see it is about your daughter only..not about the general deaf population. That is what I am trying to get the message across but it is not working so it is best that we just give this up. I will continue to advocate for those who suffered academically and socio-emotionally from the oral only philosophy until it stops happening.
 
rick48 said:
Sorry, but while you want to lay the mistakes of your parents at our footsteps, I am not buying into it and your little pity party. The reality is that parents such as Cloggy, Drew's Dad, Jackie and many others are quite different. They are in constant communication with their kids, observing them, monitoring them and in touch with their needs. Not one of them is saying that this is how every deaf child should be raised but saying this is what works best for our children.

We never were rigid in our decisons for our daughter and if she needed something, we provided it for her. I am truly sorry about the issues you still have from your childhood but they are just that--your issues--they are not my daughter's. While I acknowledge them and tuck them away for future reference in case they ever surface with her, I am not going to allow them to dominate how we raise our child.

She is happy and well adjusted and living her life to her fullest, and you know what, I am proud of the child we have raised--why is that so hard for you to accept?

Were we perfect in raising our child, no we were not. No one is, well there is one person who thinks she is, but making mistakes and learning from them is part of the human experience.

You may disagree with how we raised our daughter and that is your prerogative just as it is mine to tell you that your disapproval means absolutely nothing to me for like your two pals, I just consider the source.
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Did I say that my parents' mistakes were yours? Pls show me where did I say that. I, again, and again have said I am happy for u and your daughter. I , again, am talking about those who suffered from the oral only approach in their early years and how their parents said the same things as u and many other parents. It is such an old story whether the child is a success or not. It is time for people to stop saying that and come together to address this problem but it wont work if your concern is just for yourself only. I am assuming from the way you sound that u really are not interested in attacking the problem of many deaf children suffering academically. It sounds like u are interested in the successful oral deaf users only. If I am wrong, then I am wrong about u but it does seem like it here from your POVs. We all should be coming together to help those who were unsuccessful too. Guess it was just wishful thinking on my part. I am seeing that it seems to be not working so I will just work with the people who recognize this problem. Just too bad that we all cant work together well.
 
jackiesolorzano said:
By name calling do you mean when I called Tousi a coward. What else would you call it when someone criticizes you not to you but once they think you are no longer around. If Tousi would have said the things he/she said about Shel would you feel the same way.
Jillo think about what Tousi said and how you have felt if it was someone you respect that was being treated like that.
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AHHH...but there was no need for Tousi to say those things about shel.
 
shel90 said:
Many of us have had first hand experiences of what it is like to grow up oral and there are too many of us who carry scars. I think that really sucks cuz our parents were like u and others...they thought they knew what was best for us. I just see the same patterns repeating themselves again. "My child is different..my child is not like other deaf or hoh chidlren." Well..surprise surprise...many of our parents sang the same old song. Just the same old thing when it comes to oral only approaches.


Shel times are different and children are different. Times are even different from when my kids were toddlers. When children were babies, digit hearings aids were barely coming out. Cochlear implants were barely FDA approved. Implants had only 22 channels. When you were a baby there were no implants and hearings aides were not able to do what they can do today. Times are different there is no way around it. When you were young in order to teach profoundly deaf kids oral language you had to use the touchy method, which are now told not to ever use.
I want you to know that I really understand how awful it must have been for you and others to try and be oral when you didn't hear anything but that is not what profoundly deaf kids are having to deal with now. I also understand like BearBeauty said that once she switch to sign language how awful it must have been for her that her mother did not learn sign language. Of course I have never felt this but I can jimage how awful it is to be in a home that you cannot communicate with anybody. I know the scars that you and others must carry with you. I trully sorry for that. I don't know about others but I know that I would have learned sign language and that is why I took an ASL class within months of learning that my children were deaf. Yes, I wanted them to oral but I was also willing to switch if they needed that. I base my decision always on what my children need not what others want for them.


I came in here hoping to educate and maybe find a better solution to this widespread problem of low literacy skills with deaf children but guess it is not working. I have recieved so many PMs from other ADers who dont participate in these threads saying they feel the same way and have had the same experiences as I do but they dont post cuz they dont want to waste their time. I guess I should follow their advice. They say they would rather go to the more fun threads with people who wont disregard their opinions or experiences. I have to say that I agree....
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So because we different opinions and do not agree with your views there is something wrong with us.
 
shel90 said:
Many of us have had first hand experiences of what it is like to grow up oral and there are too many of us who carry scars. I think that really sucks cuz our parents were like u and others...they thought they knew what was best for us. I just see the same patterns repeating themselves again. "My child is different..my child is not like other deaf or hoh chidlren." Well..surprise surprise...many of our parents sang the same old song. Just the same old thing when it comes to oral only approaches.

I came in here hoping to educate and maybe find a better solution to this widespread problem of low literacy skills with deaf children but guess it is not working. I have recieved so many PMs from other ADers who dont participate in these threads saying they feel the same way and have had the same experiences as I do but they dont post cuz they dont want to waste their time. I guess I should follow their advice. They say they would rather go to the more fun threads with people who wont disregard their opinions or experiences. I have to say that I agree....
Click to expand...

***nodding agreement*** Here is a definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting to achieve different results.
 
shel90 said:
Oh if that's so that why did u tell me and deafdkye that u are done talking to us cuz we were rambling on using nonsense info? I think we have validity too. Sorry that we dont agree with u but that doesnt mean we are clueless either.
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Exactly. It's the views against his oral bias that he has a problem with.
 
rick48 said:
What on earth are you talking about? Grow up, stop your incessant whining and get a life! This board is not about you and how you perceive every post being written about you.
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WOW!:eek3: That's a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black! :laugh2:
 
[]***nodding agreement*** Here is a definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting to achieve different results.[/QUOTE]

We are expecting different results because we have different technology much more advcanced and we have different teaching methods. It is logical that we would have different results.
 
rick48 said:
Sorry, but while you want to lay the mistakes of your parents at our footsteps, I am not buying into it and your little pity party. The reality is that parents such as Cloggy, Drew's Dad, Jackie and many others are quite different. They are in constant communication with their kids, observing them, monitoring them and in touch with their needs. Not one of them is saying that this is how every deaf child should be raised but saying this is what works best for our children.

We never were rigid in our decisons for our daughter and if she needed something, we provided it for her. I am truly sorry about the issues you still have from your childhood but they are just that--your issues--they are not my daughter's. While I acknowledge them and tuck them away for future reference in case they ever surface with her, I am not going to allow them to dominate how we raise our child.

She is happy and well adjusted and living her life to her fullest, and you know what, I am proud of the child we have raised--why is that so hard for you to accept?

Were we perfect in raising our child, no we were not. No one is, well there is one person who thinks she is, but making mistakes and learning from them is part of the human experience.

You may disagree with how we raised our daughter and that is your prerogative just as it is mine to tell you that your disapproval means absolutely nothing to me for like your two pals, I just consider the source.
Click to expand...

:blah::blah::blah: Like I said--always trying to arugue a logical point from an emotional position.
 
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