District files appeal against deaf student

[Silentwolfdog]

Curious...do u and other AD members think teachers should have perfect English grammar at all times? That's a lot to live up to and I would be :Ohno:about making any grammatical mistakes here cuz I am a teacher. LOL!!!!

Lol, no. No one is perfect. Even my dad tell me that my English teacher made a grammar error on something (I can't remember) at one time. Yeah, you can imagine my face when he mentioned something like this.
As long as your sentences make sense and look professional then it's fine. Well, that's just my opinion.

If anyone expect something like this, then they are being ridiculous for expecting too much from teachers. English is one of hardest language to be perfect at, anyway.

 

[deafdyke]

she received a's and b's and 2 awards of being the top student in history and the most improved student in geometry.

If she's doing so well then how come she NEEDS CART? I mean it just seems overkill for a high acheiving dhh kid to have CART........She should just depend on notetakers. Or maybe even use a 'terp. A LOT of orally trained kids have to use 'terps in the classroom. It just seems like this is a typical "AG Bell" style parent who is whining and complaining b/c there's really nothing comparable to 'terps for oral kids. Well you know........it just goes to prove our point. Oral skills do not equalize 100% dhh kids, but yet organizations like AG Bell make hearing parents like you think it does!
Oh and Jackie, you meant to say that your kid has MINIMAL accomondations. Basicly 508 style accomondations, rather then remedial "resource room" style accomondations.


Yes, we all know about the papers that claim that Sign impedes oral skills. However, have you ever heard of a thing called bias? I bet the authors of those papers were names like Moog, Fletcher and all those other pro oral only researchers. They have a personal bias against Sign. They were taught to see it as a "crutch"
No matter that an orally skilled kid may have the vocab of a kindergartener and syntax of someone who speaks English as a second language........the kid with oral skills is ALWAYS more supioeor to the kid who may be bilingal.
God, imagine if Sign was promoted as dhh kids being able to grow up BILINGAL?!?! So ironic that a lot of the parents who buy into oral only would absolutly jump at the chance for their kids to grow up bilingal in English and Spanish or English and another language?
Ever notice that a lot of the pro oral folks are often the same ones who are "English Only" types?

First I am not your typical oral deaf educator nor am I an extreme oralist.

We're not bashing you. Maybe you just feel that way b/c you're now thinking "Oh well maybe there is something to the bi-bi or "full toolbox" approach. It's great that you're not an extreme oralist. FAB. MANY of us here think that oral skills should be pushed *gasp* They are useful. We reconize that there are some kids who have done really really well orally. But we're just asking and hypothesizing that maybe a better approach would be a FULL TOOLBOX approach!

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Well, in that case, since she's not coming back, I want to say this without insulting her, personally, but about her position. As I understand it, she is an 8 year teacher, is hearing and all that. I mention hearing because for a while I thought she was deaf. Now, as a general rule, we are not to criticize a person's grammar/handling the English language on this site and I abide by that; however, in the case of this thread where we are trying to speak of educational strategies, etc, I must admit I wonder about her writing, especially for someone "so well educated" and I am not sure what it is I am wondering about here. I'm at a loss.

Tousi, SHAME SHAME on you. When I first started reading these postings, there was someone who was being very critical about Shel, her writing abilities, and her being a teacher. I have copied some of comments people made. I really agreed with Shel and what everybody else said. This is a forum. I know that I have different writing styles depending on what I am writing. It is the same thing when I am speaking to somebody the language I use and the way I speak is diffferent depending on who I am speaking to
These are the different comments made, I just cut and pasted them

I hope you're not a teacher, shel. Spelling like that scares me and makes me wonder if there is hope for the future

This is a forum, not a formal research paper or official memo.

Dude, lay off the nacho sauce. That remark was totally uncalled for. I don't know what bug crawled up your ass but seriously I think you owe someone an apology. There are plenty of people who have both spelling and sentence structure skills that will often far excede what they display on the net when posting on forums or instaint messengers. It's not like she's writing a term paper. Not all teachers are anal and inist that their grammar and spelling be impeccable wherever they're writing/typing or whatever with they may be doing.

I am not anal about my English when I am just typing away on this site. I dont want to cuz I write so many reports, memos and blah blah so I do a lot of proofreading. Here, I am just relaxed and enjoying typing away. If this guy wants tExcuse me, You are DEADLY wrong...

I know that Shel is teacher, also she's good teacher.

I can't believe that you are SOOO CRAZIER.o be the spelling cop, so be it..who really cares! LOL!

Hey Bum Perky, I think you are a real being an asshole.
In contrast, I would have been thrilled to have shel teaching my deaf son! She is an educator who truly cares about and advocates for the needs of her students, as well as for deaf students everywhere. I am a hearing Ph.D. candidate, and my spelling is quite often less than perfect when I post to these forums. And when I am talking to friends, my grammar is quite often less than perfect. And yes, you are being anal, as well as overly critical. Unfortunately, when you take that attitude, you miss the important value in the message becasue you are too busy looking for letters that are out of place. Get a grip!

Second when I was reading these comments I decided to do my own little experiment, I thought, I wondered if someone wrote sort of like Shel but wasn't on their side like me if they would also come to my defense like they did with Shel. You proved me right. Since I am not on your side it is OK to blash me for my writing skills.
This was really uncalled for. It was really mean. Maybe that is just the type of person you are.

Another thing you are coward, you waited until you thought I was not going to come back to say these things. Does that make you feel good about yourself

One last point to you Tousi, You are 100% right my English skills on this forum were awful. What we have been talking about on this forum I am very passionate about. We are talking children like my children, children like my students, this is the world that I live 24 hours a day. My brain works very fast and fingers try to keep up but it usually is a losing battle. But I thought the point was to get my message across but I knew someone will critize me. Just want to prove a point and I did.

Shel mention that maybe because English was my second language that could be the answer. This isn't the case. Although English was sort of my second language. My father spoke to me in Hungarian most of the time and my mom only spoke to me in Spanish when my dad was not around but when he was working, which was a lot my mom spoke to me in English. Although English was not my parents' first language, they were fluent in English.

 

[Aleser]

Okay, I'll start out by saying that I like and highly respect shel, without question.

That said, how you speak here is -always- going to be a reflection upon your ability. Your posts, and the views contained in them, are at risk for not sounding "smart enough" if you use informal or netspeak. That might not be fun, but that's just how things are. People gain an impression of you 2 lines into your postings and sometimes that impression can falsely stick for a very long time.

I find it best if you DO try and use the same writing you would use if you were doing it to turn in a paper. Many people here (and everywhere!) will judge you as harsh as or moreso than most of your old professors.

I get it being frustrating. English is my third language, and for a long time while I was still learning, I just wanted to yell at people cos they'd make comments like not understanding you even if you're being perfectly logical, or even go as far as treating you like you're retarded just because you don't know their language yet.

 

[shel90]

Okay, I'll start out by saying that I like and highly respect shel, without question.

That said, how you speak here is -always- going to be a reflection upon your ability. Your posts, and the views contained in them, are at risk for not sounding "smart enough" if you use informal or netspeak. That might not be fun, but that's just how things are. People gain an impression of you 2 lines into your postings and sometimes that impression can falsely stick for a very long time.

I find it best if you DO try and use the same writing you would use if you were doing it to turn in a paper. Many people here (and everywhere!) will judge you as harsh as or moreso than most of your old professors.

I get it being frustrating. English is my third language, and for a long time while I was still learning, I just wanted to yell at people cos they'd make comments like not understanding you even if you're being perfectly logical, or even go as far as treating you like you're retarded just because you don't know their language yet.

I try to write without mistakes but there are times when I am lazy, tired, or just typing way too fast resulting in errors with my writing. However, when it comes to typing reports or papers in which my grammar or the use of terminology is critical, I become more careful and proofread my papers several times to make sure there are no errors. Now, I am starting to read many of my posts before submitting them cuz I went back and looked at my old posts and realized how careless I became with my writing. It is recommended that everyone should write to the best of their abilities when making posts on any forums so others can understand the message. I noticed when I am not careful, others misunderstood my message resulting in the other person feeling offended or taking what I meant in a total opposite way.

By the way, I struggle to use fancy words in my writing like Jillo and others cuz I missed out on so much spoken English growing up and I never learned how hearing people used or played around with English. My English was acquired thru reading 99% of the time while hearing acquire English 99% of the time. However, I also think there is no need to use fancy words here because I would probably end up not making sense..LOL!

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Oh, another thing Jackie...when I was debating with u , I was seeing u as a educator not as a parent. I have forgotten that u are a parent of deaf children a few times when I responded to some of your posts.

Educator to educator, do u think at 3 years old is too long of a wait before deciding the deaf child is not picking up on spoken language as his/her hearing counterparts and time to switch to signing? To me, 3 years is a lot of time lost on language development. I mean, even a year is still too much for me.

Educator to educator Shel, yes I think 3 years old could be to late but it really depends. Say a 3 year is not going to be able to be oral and the parents are ready to accept and change programs and really embrace a TC or signing program then no I do not think it is too late. If you think about it just a couple of years ago before newborn screening many children would not get diagnosis until 2 or 3 years old. Newborn screening are giving us some more time.
I know quite a few teenagers that were not diagnosis until 2 or 3 years old and took the TC approach and parents really embraced that approach. Everyone learned sign language in the home. These teenagers were able to catch language wise are doing very well in school.
It can be done but is hardier.

 

[shel90]

Educator to educator Shel, yes I think 3 years old could be to late but it really depends. Say a 3 year is not going to be able to be oral and the parents are ready to accept and change programs and really embrace a TC or signing program then no I do not think it is too late. If you think about it just a couple of years ago before newborn screening many children would not get diagnosis until 2 or 3 years old. Newborn screening are giving us some more time.
I know quite a few teenagers that were not diagnosis until 2 or 3 years old and took the TC approach and parents really embraced that approach. Everyone learned sign language in the home. These teenagers were able to catch language wise are doing very well in school.
It can be done but is hardier.

That can make a huge difference too..

I guess I am just extremely nervous about any children not having full access to language and then it shows up when they are older when they struggle with complex or critical thinking skills.

 

[Aleser]

It can be done, but I wish it wasn't. I know my baby cousins (I have more first cousins than most people can name family members, distant included, period) usually get very, very frustrated if they can't communicate something with their mother. One had a severe speech delay, and this was especially evident. How many years should a child be forced to live without any reasonable way to express their needs until the parents give up?

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Jackie,

Personally, I think you are doing a good job trying to respect your children's wishes. And I appauld you for that. I guess sometimes people see parents encourage their children to be oral, and while this can be a good thing, it's the deaf children that fall through the cracks that most educators do not want to see. I am not a parent or an educator. I am a woman who grew up in a oral enviroment who's mother did not learn to sign, yet I learned to sign as i grew up. I support your decision to allow your children to learn the way that they want to learn.

Educators want to see all deaf children succeed. This is something I've learned from reading the posts of deaf educators on Alldeaf.com And while they may not respect the way the child is learning, they do respect that the child is learning. I read that your daughter learns signs socially, and that is her preference. I can understand that.

At least you are trying to help your child succeed in her education and her life. And we have to applaud you for that. Some deaf educators may not like it, but we have to respect your drive to allow your children to suceed in life.

Bear Beauty,
Thank you, it means a lot to hear that from you. When my children were first diagnosis, I took an ASL class because I was not sure what route we were going to take. I did enroll both of my children in an oral program. Since I wasn't sure if they would be able to be oral but knew that maybe that wasn't right for them, I want to know some sign language just in case we had to switch. I had heard stories like you where a child was learning sign language but parents did not know sign language and how isolated that child felt. I did not want to be in a situation where I was not able to communicate with my children. I didn't take any more sign language classes until I was training to be a teacher because my children were able to be oral.

 

[shel90]

It can be done, but I wish it wasn't. I know my baby cousins (I have more first cousins than most people can name family members, distant included, period) usually get very, very frustrated if they can't communicate something with their mother. One had a severe speech delay, and this was especially evident. How many years should a child be forced to live without any reasonable way to express their needs until the parents give up?

Dont u think it is ironic that many hearing parents of hearing babies take sign classes so their babies can express themselves at a younger age? My 20 month son is hearing (maybe slightly HOH) and he hasnt spoken 1 word yet but signs approximately around 30 words. He signs all the time to his hearing grandparents and they are frustrated because it seems that he prefers to use sign to express himself and they dont know any signs. They keep complaining that they want him to start talking but it seems like he is not interested in talking.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Hey Jackie...I went back over the whole thread and I couldnt find anything that I said criticizing u and your decisions. In fact, I found many of my posts applauding u so I have no idea what u are talking about that I made u feel bad? It looked like we were having a good dialogue and some disagreements here and there but nowhere did I say that u were a bad parent and bad teacher so I am What was that I said was so bad that turned u off? Some things u said I felt offended by but I let it go and continued the discussion or debate with u. I thought we were having a good rapport going on..I must have missed something.

When u expressed your feelings, I thought I better read back to find where I said insulting things to u but I found none.

Shel you are right it wasn't really you. I just had so much stuff throw at me that I got confused as to who said what. Sorry.

 

[Aleser]

Dont u think it is ironic that many hearing parents of hearing babies take sign classes so their babies can express themselves at a younger age? My 20 month son is hearing (maybe slightly HOH) and he hasnt spoken 1 word yet but signs approximately around 30 words. He signs all the time to his hearing grandparents and they are frustrated because it seems that he prefers to use sign to express himself and they dont know any signs. They keep complaining that they want him to start talking but it seems like he is not interested in talking.

Yeah, I heard about those hearing baby ASL classes. I think for parents that put their children in them go in with the understanding that soon enough, speech will come anyways, and it's just a short-term measure. On the other hand, parents of deaf/hoh children don't have that expectation, so they'd feel like it would be giving up on their child ever being fully able to communicate with the hearing world, and that their children's inability to grasp oral language is due to some failure on their part. I think that particular feeling is spread on a little too much by Oral education programs that discourage students from being exposed to sign, because we all know a deaf kid could never pick up two languages (sarcasm!)

 

[jackiesolorzano]

If she's doing so well then how come she NEEDS CART? I mean it just seems overkill for a high acheiving dhh kid to have CART........

The law states that children with special needs should have equal access to the curriulum. Yes, my daughter is smart and we work at home really hard but she does not have equal access. In our area 8 other high school students are using CART, if it is already is being used why should my daughter not be able to use it. One of the requirements in order to use CART is for that student to be reading close to grade level. So if she wasn't doing well in school, the school district would tell us NO because she doesn't have the reading abilities to fully use CART

She should just depend on notetakers.

A notetaker cannot come close to what CART can do. A CART provider types at least 220 words per minute, a notetaker no matter how good cannot do this. The other thing CART does is provide her with that information at the moment, which would help her be part of classroom discussions. Notes are not given until after class.
Or maybe even use a 'terp. A LOT of orally trained kids have to use 'terps in the classroom. It just seems like this is a typical "AG Bell" style parent who is whining and complaining b/c there's really nothing comparable to 'terps for oral kids. Well you know........it just goes to prove our point. Oral skills do not equalize 100% dhh kids, but yet organizations like AG Bell make hearing parents like you think it does!
Oh and Jackie, you meant to say that your kid has MINIMAL accomondations. Basicly 508 style accomondations, rather then remedial "resource room" style accomondations.


Yes, we all know about the papers that claim that Sign impedes oral skills. However, have you ever heard of a thing called bias?

I agree with you 100% that is the point I was trying to make that you can find research articles on whatever point you want to make. You can find many research articles on how oral is best and also on how Bi-Bi is best or whatever approach you think is best. My point if you want to find a research article supporting your point you will find it.

I bet the authors of those papers were names like Moog, Fletcher and all those other pro oral only researchers. They have a personal bias against Sign. They were taught to see it as a "crutch"
No matter that an orally skilled kid may have the vocab of a kindergartener and syntax of someone who speaks English as a second language........the kid with oral skills is ALWAYS more supioeor to the kid who may be bilingal.

I personallly do not think that oral is superior. What I think oral can do for my children is give them more opportunities

God, imagine if Sign was promoted as dhh kids being able to grow up BILINGAL?!?! So ironic that a lot of the parents who buy into oral only would absolutly jump at the chance for their kids to grow up bilingal in English and Spanish or English and another language?
Ever notice that a lot of the pro oral folks are often the same ones who are "English Only" types?
I know that I am not like that. I was raised with 3 languages in our home. My father knew about 6 languages before he passed away


We're not bashing you. Maybe you just feel that way b/c you're now thinking "Oh well maybe there is something to the bi-bi or "full toolbox" approach. It's great that you're not an extreme oralist. FAB. MANY of us here think that oral skills should be pushed *gasp* They are useful. We reconize that there are some kids who have done really really well orally. But we're just asking and hypothesizing that maybe a better approach would be a FULL TOOLBOX approach!

I have read about the Bi-Bi, it is not available here in California. I am very happy with the choices I have made so far.

 

[rick48]

And those that are threatened by it usually have not earned anything comparable.

Yes, I find that to be true and that is why I never mention my degrees as they are not relevent to these issues, however my wife's are and that is why I mention her's from time to time.

 

[rick48]

I see. You would prefer that they go without services and therefore, are inadequately educated. Shame on you!

Oh no, I want them to get all the services they need to succeed, it is you I have the issue with.

 

[rick48]

I have read about the Bi-Bi, it is not available here in California. I am very happy with the choices I have made so far.

Great and it appears that you are a concerned, caring and loving parent and your children are blessed to have you.

Please stay around, you have a lot to offer and don't let one or two people try to run you off this forum.
Rick

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Great and it appears that you are a concerned, caring and loving parent and your children are blessed to have you.

Please stay around, you have a lot to offer and don't let one or two people try to run you off this forum.
Rick

I have decided to stick around. Thank you

 

[rick48]

I have decided to stick around. Thank you

Fantastic!

And I still owe you the names of people who fought for CART for their kids, I will work on that today.
Rick

 

[Tousi]

Well, Jackie, you sure said a mouthful; I was half expecting you to come back, anyway. I don't know if you noticed my one caveat which was my expression that I was impressed with what you have done as a mother. I think you lucked out in choosing the oral only approach while, scuttling, intentionally or not, the tandem approach of ASL and for that I am happy for you and your child. But that's just the view from the emotional side.

Some of us have been trying to look at this from an educational strategy point of view and it's been difficult for me and some others. Since you are a trained educator, I hold you to a higher standard. This is the Internet and it behooves us to put our best face forward. The nice thing about this box (computer) is that we can talk about subjects whenever we want to and get all of the benefits of the immediacy that this brings. But it should not be an excuse to write without thinking about grammar, structure and spelling because we want the widest, most diverse audience possible to understand what we are saying. Obviously, I am not talking about the rare misspelling, punctuation mark, etc. From a professional, I want and rightfully expect the care and attention given to the subject. Absent this, you would not be getting my business; in this case, my child.

Just as the first thing you should do when going to a restaurant is to check out it's restroom. If it is dirty, what am I to think what the kitchen must be like?

Like I said in the above post, my comment was not personal and I refuse to cower to your "shame, shame, shame game", something the deaf in this country are way past fed up putting up with. So, when we are talking about educational strategies about children NOT yours, grow some thick skin cuz the heat comes with the kitchen.

 

[pek1]

English is one of hardest language to be perfect at, anyway.

Speaking American is just as bad! And, yes, it is the hardest language to learn.