District files appeal against deaf student

[jillio]

Again you are judging the road that we have taken. I can accept that you have taken the signing road with your child, it was your choice, why can't you accept it that this is the road we have taken and we are happy with our decisions. I completely understand that oral is not right for everyone and that some parents kept their children too long on the oral path when they should change. She has accept who she is. She is young deaf teenager that was raised orally. She knows that if she wants to drop her voice she can do it at anytime with our blessing if that is what she wants. A couple of her deaf friends that go to high school with other deaf have told me that they wish they could talk like Samantha. It is a personal and we need to respect other peoples choices.

Wow, here comes the defensiveness of the oral philosophy again. I am not judging you and in no way did my post imply that I was. I was expressing the viewpoint that I did not see sign as forcing a child to change their identity, but simply to accept their identity. Where do you see this as judgemental. And you may be happy with your decisions, but your contradictory statements continue to demonstrate that your children are perhaps not as successful on all levels as you would like to believe they are.

You say that your daughter can drop her voice at any time with your support? And how would she do that and still be able to communicate with her family? You have placed her in a position of not being able to communicate with you except on your terms--oral. That, in effect, leaves her with no choice at all.

 

[jillio]

I would be totally fine if the school would provided an interpeter and CART. CART being my first choice. Because first sign language is not my daughter's first language and second it would be a huge benefit to have a transcript of every word being said in class.

Amnd the very reasons you have just cited is the reason that your daughter is having problems with her services.

 

[jillio]

Jillio,
I want to explain partly why my daughter does not want me to sign with her. I am first generation American. My dad was from Europe and my mom is from Mexico. Spanish and Hungarian was my first language. I actually like to call myself a Hungry Mexican. My husband was born and raised in Central America. He came to his country as a teenager.
When we found out the kids were deaf, the doctors told us that we shouldn't speak two language around them. So we stop speaking Spanish. I would not allow anyone to speak Spanish in my home. It was kind of wierd because it was strange to hear English coming out of my mom's mouth. She had a good command of English but growing up she always spoke to me in Spanish and I answered in English. When I was young it was not acceptable to speak Spanish unlike it is today where in my area everyone speaks Spanish. not really in my city but in our county we have many spanish speaking communities
ABout 5 years once my kids had a solid foundation in spoken English we begin to speak Spanish in our home. But with my husband I only English unless we are upset or what to say something that I did not want my children to understand. So my daughter says that's what she wants, she at times doesn't want me to know what she is telling her friends. My command of sign language when her friend are signing is that I understand about 70%. I think at times when she is telling them secrets she doesn't want me to know. She says well you speak Spanish to dad when you don't want me to understand.


The other thing I want to mention is that we are very lucky where we live. My daughter can immerse herself in the oral world or in the Deaf culture if she wants.

Because of my background and culture I do not want them to move away to college so this is why we live where we live. Me wanting them to stay has nothing to do with their deafnes but everything to so with my background and culture. I would rather move away to small city where house prices are not so expsensive. Our cost of living in southern California is awful.
But in our city we are about 10 minutes away from MTSAC which is a community collge has a great program for kids that are deaf. They have best program around for interpeters to become interpeters. Plus the person in charge of the kids with disabilities is deaf herself. That is if she wants to start at a community college.
If she wants to go directly to a 4 year college we have Cal State Nortridge about 35 minutes away from our home, which has an amazing deaf studies program.
If she wants a strictly hearing college we have about 15 colleges within 30 minutes of our home.
I have told my children over and over they do not have an option of going to college. They will go. Their options are where they will go and what they will study.

Reread your post, please. I understand that perhaps you come from a different cultural background, and I have a strong understanding of the effect that has on behaviors that may be considered different fromthe majority. I also see that you are very controlling with your children from what you have stated. You give them options with the one hand, and then go about limiting the way in which they can achieve. You tell them they have no choice-they will go to college. Then rather than saying, but you may attend the college of your choice, you say, but no farther than an hour from home because I still want to be able to contol your life and your decisions.
Obviously, believing in the oral philosophy is very natural for you, because it, as well, is about taking away the deaf individual's autonomy.

 

[jillio]

I wonder if Shel had accomphish all she had just using oral language would you also admire as much.
I also think Shel it is great everything Shel has been able to do but I would go a next further say it would great if had done it all in just by using her oral skills or just be using ASL or using a combination of both.

Obviously, you haven't been reading the posts. Shel was raised oral. She choose to become bilingual after reaching college age, and discovering that the oral approach had left her lacking in many respects.

And yes, I would admire her just as much, as what I admire is not her ability to speak or her abiltiy to sign, but her teaching philosophy and her concern for deaf children. She is a wonderful caring person, an excellennt teacher, and a free thinking, open minded individual. Her communication method has nothing to do with that. Her ability to speak, and her ability to sign, are of no consequence tothe person she is and the success she has achieved. You should stop equating communication choice with value of the person.

 

[jillio]

You are right my daughter has had some difficulty but most students at some point in their educational career have had some sort of trouble. That is where I get involved and make sure to work out these areas. Just because you are having problems doesn't mean you should abandon our goals.
I really think that having CART will take care of most of these problems but if it doesn't then I am not open to find other ways to solution my daughter areas of difficult. Are you open finding solutions or you so set that your way is the right and only way? I am not like I am open to things.

It is too late for the use of CART to take care of linguistic delay. CART is very useful, but only if a student meets all of the criteria for being able to utilize it. Don't get me wrong--I recommend CART for a couple of deaf students who are postlingually deafened and have a great command and ability to use spoken and written English. I recommend it as a backup for a student with a CI that is still very sign based, but also have an interpreter in class so that the transcript makes since becasue he has gotten concept from the lecture via interpretation. I also recommend its use for students with CP, and/or dyslexia. And yes, finding solution happens to be my profession. However, the person seeking solutions has to be open minded enough and willing toadmit that what is currently being done isn't working, or those solutions go to waste.

 

[Silentwolfdog]

I will find it. I just am so against in putting any deaf children at risk for being delayed in language and since u stated that around kindergarten is when u know whether to switch to signing or not. I think that is way tooo long cuz that's 5 years of being language deprived for the children. Nope..I wont be open minded about that issue at all. I can be open minded about the oral approach working for some deaf children and putting them in oral only education but during their formative years for language development, nope. Nothing personal...I am thinking of the childrens' needs ..not about u, not about me, not about Deaf or Hearing culture...it is about providing full access to language for all deaf/hoh children to ensure that they will be ready to learn reading and writing at 5 years old instead of having them learn a new language at 5 years old and putting teaching reading and writing on hold until they become fluent in sign language.

I got to agree with you there. That's way too late. That's why even if students came to my deaf school while they are 5 years old and learn and used sign language all those years at deaf school. They are still behind on reading and writing, even though they are at deaf school from the beginning. It's those 5 years that made a difference.

I guess it's like oral method is a risky gamble.

I have not heard from her, about what happened to kids who failed oral at that program you used. Where are they? What happened to them? Are they behind on language because of those missed years?

 

[jillio]

I am sure there lots of kids that were orally that were not successful but again I think it goes back to the parents and they approach things and are they fully informed of all the different ways, which in my case I know I was can't speak for other parents

What has that got to do with Bi-Bi education?

 

[jillio]

From what I have read of what you say you are bias towards signing. Let's be honest how many profoundly deaf kids that have gone through a bi bi approach have oral skills that most people would understand.
Where as my children most anybody they come in contact will understand them. Academically my son is above grade level. He is in the 9th grade reading at a 10th grade level and half of his classes are honors level. He is fully mainstreamed with no interpeter or notetaker. He rarely studies for a test and always gets b's and sbove on his test. My daughter also fully mainstreamed with an adult notetaker received a and b's on her report card. Yes lot of work on her part and yes she missed information but is so smart that she makes it up. In California we have an high school exit exam the kids take in the 10th grade which she just finished and passed this test on the 1st time. So there are gaps but that is where my job as a mom is to come in and fill the gaps.

The fact that your son is fully mainstreamed without support services, and that you also claim that he is profoundly deaf scares the hell out of me! And you are an educator?????

 

[jillio]

I know I have met people that have had such bad experience and I really think I have learn from their experiences

Obviously not.

 

[jillio]

I go out of my way to always talk to parents about implants. I have found too many parents thinking it is a miracle when it is not. An implant can be a very valuable tool. I always refer to implants as being part of the puzzle and every part has to be there to fit if not then it is of no use. Being an oral teacher of deaf implant centers have called to ask me what I thought about certain students of mine if they should get implant and on several occasions I have told no, one because parents only spoke Spanish and were not willing to learn English there was no use in that case. In another case my student was 6 years old and had no oral skills so I told parents and my prnicpal and the implant center that this child needed a signing program right away. The child came to me at the age of 6 and I knew he was not going to make it orall and should have been placed in a TC class a long time ago

WTF! Why wouldn't an implant be helpful to a Spanish speaking family? If that is the language they speak, then hearing it would be as helpful as hearing English, wouldn't it? The CI isn't about spoken English. It is about oral/auditory language made accessable. There are many,many oral/auditory languages. English is the only one. And just because the parents spoke Spanish you recommended a TC program and labeled the child an oral failure? What are you thinking? Where is it that you teach? Are you certified? Do you have a degree?

 

[jillio]

{Mod Edit: Quote/Post was previously removed--~RR}


Wasn't flaunting at all, my dear, merely pointing out that even those of us who shouldn't, make mistakes in spelling and grammar.

 

[jillio]

I would love to see that study. Honestly I have not seen any profoundly deaf children that were toddlers that had both oral and signing at the same and the child had good oral skills. I have met many people like yourself that have oral skills and were very fluent in sign language but because like you they were raised orally and then learn sign language as teenagers or adults. I would love to read the study. The other problem I see with TC programs out here by us and I have observe many programs is that they say they use oral language and sign language together at the same time but I have not seen a program like that yet. Generally what happens is that there a lot more signing done by the teachers, aides, and student then oral language. It is not a balance program, I have also seen classes that say they are TC but there is no oral language in the program

I've got one! Only he isn't a toddler anymore. And the reason there are problems with simcom is because ASL has a different syntax than English, and therefore, you nearly need to be a magician to sign ASL and speak Enlgish at the same time. The MCE systems do not facilitate understanding in the same way that ASL does, and are merely another method to make English visable. If one is trying to teach English, one cannot do it in this way. That is where the B-Bi method comes in, and it is a great improvement over the current TC methodology.

 

[jillio]

Wow u had heard horror stories from them. I am older than u I guess if u have teenagers. I never went school there except I went there to have my hearing test which it was free. They told my parents that I was deaf and mentally retarded. Of coursse I was not mentally retarded, need time to heal from major illness. U have to understand something, when John Tracy told my parents what were best for me back then that oral was must, sign language was bad. So they believed them and send me to oral program for few years. During two years time with this oral teacher, she abused me and I could not tell my parents about her because I could not communicate with my parents, only silence. I had problem with attention which I could not sit still and watch her lips for long time so I looked away from her then she came to me and shook my head and hurt me. Finally my parents fought school and changed it to TC which it was best thing ever happen to me. I learned right away after TC. Years later I met this oral teacher again , my fear was so bad and I shut myself down and not say one voice to her at all. U know what she told me after I refused to use my voice with her " What a shame on you for not being taling" That was when I decided I would never be a teacher for the deaf and blind. It was my first goal to be a school teacher now after her words to me. I would never do that to any deaf child ever so I decided to leave college and never return. I read you are a teacher and hope u are very good with those children. This is way off subject from CART to this. Oops. It was good reading. Good luck with your kids.

The Tracy Clinic is notoriously oralist in their philosophy, just like A.G. Bell. And they actually recoomend practices that increse the linguistic deprivation of deaf kids, and promote the viewpoint that sign language is inferior to spoken.

 

[rick48]

The fact that your son is fully mainstreamed without support services, and that you also claim that he is profoundly deaf scares the hell out of me! And you are an educator?????

And you allegedly service deaf children with cis, that scares me a hell of a lot more!

 

[rick48]

Wasn't flaunting at all, my dear, merely pointing out that even those of us who shouldn't, make mistakes in spelling and grammar.

Good, because there is nothing to flaunt. Having a degree is by no means any indicator of intelligence and certainly, as you prove, does not indicate an open mind or tolerence of differing viewpoints.

 

[jillio]

And you allegedly service deaf children with cis, that scares me a hell of a lot more!

I see. You would prefer that they go without services and therefore, are inadequately educated. Shame on you!

 

[jillio]

Good, because there is nothing to flaunt. Having a degree is by no means any indicator of intelligence and certainly, as you prove, does not indicate an open mind or tolerence of differing viewpoints.

And those that are threatened by it usually have not earned anything comparable.

 

[shel90]

And you allegedly service deaf children with cis, that scares me a hell of a lot more!

She serves deaf ADULTS not children...big difference. Pls read carefully next time. I serve deaf children.

 

[shel90]

Good, because there is nothing to flaunt. Having a degree is by no means any indicator of intelligence and certainly, as you prove, does not indicate an open mind or tolerence of differing viewpoints.

She is not open minded about allowing some deaf kids falling thru the cracks academically and socio-emotionally just because they were unable to pick up on oral language or were left out a lot/missing out a lot in the education system. That's a good reason to be closed minded cuz it is about them not about u or us.

 

[jillio]

She is not open minded about allowing some deaf kids falling thru the cracks academically and socio-emotionally just because they were unable to pick up on oral language or were left out a lot/missing out a lot in the education system. That's a good reason to be closed minded cuz it is about them not about u or us.

Yes, shel. More than being closed minded, because that involves refusing to even investigate other alternatives, I have investigated the other alternatives, seen the consequences first hand in more than one or two children, and have based my view on the most convincing evidence. Beign convinced that one method is superior to the others educationally is not closed minded, it is being open minded enough to to what works based on empirical eveidence. You approach it the same way.