District files appeal against deaf student

[jackiesolorzano]

I will find it. I just am so against in putting any deaf children at risk for being delayed in language and since u stated that around kindergarten is when u know whether to switch to signing or not. I think that is way tooo long cuz that's 5 years of being language deprived for the children. Nope..I wont be open minded about that issue at all. I can be open minded about the oral approach working for some deaf children and putting them in oral only education but during their formative years for language development, nope. Nothing personal...I am thinking of the childrens' needs ..not about u, not about me, not about Deaf or Hearing culture...it is about providing full access to language for all deaf/hoh children to ensure that they will be ready to learn reading and writing at 5 years old instead of having them learn a new language at 5 years old and putting teaching reading and writing on hold until they become fluent in sign language.

Yeah I can see your point about 5 being too old but now a days since deaf kids are being diagnosis before the age of 1, all I need is 18 months tops to know if that children could be oral. If everything is in place and I see a child be the age of 3, which who has been aided and in a rich oral language envirnonment, I would know if parents need to change appraoches.

 

[jillio]

Yeah I can see your point about 5 being too old but now a days since deaf kids are being diagnosis before the age of 1, all I need is 18 months tops to know if that children could be oral. If everything is in place and I see a child be the age of 3, which who has been aided and in a rich oral language environment, I would know if parents need to change appraoches.

No, no, no, no no! An 18 month old child is still developing linguistically. And a definitive diagnosis cannot be reached before the age of one. You mioght be able to get a dB reading, but as far as residual hearing and discrimination are concerned, you can't get that by age 1. And these are the variables that are so important.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

John Tracy is against sign language or is has that changed now? The oral program that I was placed in when I was a toddler was against sign language and they told my parents that by teaching me sign language will be a detriment to my academic progress so that scared my parents shitless. I think that's f*(#cked up of them to do that.
That is wrong, I would never parents that because I have seen many signing kids who do not use their voice be at grade level or way above grade level. We oral people and oral teachers are not all like that. Maybe because I a newer teacher things have changes. I know that girls I went through my teaching training have some what of the same view. I know even one the girls I went to school with went on to teach a TC class.

That teacher who said that to u should be condemned! After a year at Gallaudet, I went back to AZ to visit my family and I contacted my old deaf ed teacher for lunch. We went out for lunch and I was telling her about how much I love Gallaudet and how wonderful it was that everyone signs and I dont miss out on anything. U know what she said? She said that she can tell that signing is making my speech skills deteriorate...right there, I felt sick to my stomach. Instead of being happy for me that I finally found happiness in my life after a lifetime of being frustrated, angry, jealous, and miserable of not being able to hear, she has to criticize my speech skills. Since then, I havent and I refuse to contact her. I thought she was cool but that was a big turn off for me. Been 6 years..she tried contacting me later on but I was going thru an anger stage about being denying sign language all my life. Boy, I had a blowout with my mom during that anger stage. It wasnt easy going thru that realizing how much I missed out all my life when it didnt have to be that way.
I personally would never have said to you. When I speak to my children I am also not the type of parent to correct their speech unless we are directly working on their speech skills but if we just chatting and they say something incorrect I am listening for content not skills. but that is just me

I am sorry Jazzy that u had a horrible experience there and I am sorry that what that teacher said turned u off about becoming a teacher for deaf ed.

I am also very sorry because we parents need role models like yourself.

 

[jillio]

Yeah I can see your point about 5 being too old but now a days since deaf kids are being diagnosis before the age of 1, all I need is 18 months tops to know if that children could be oral. If everything is in place and I see a child be the age of 3, which who has been aided and in a rich oral language envirnonment, I would know if parents need to change appraoches.

Once again, could you please offer credentials that give you such expertise?

 

[jackiesolorzano]

# 1: Ohio

# 2: Numerous Would it be possible to be their info. Could you maybe ask them if I could have their e-mail or maybe could I give you my e-mail. I really interested in speaking to people who have been able to do this.

# 3 The majority.

I haven't come across any over here where I live. The only child I have that was in a TC program from preschool was a young lady that has a moderate loss so she actually hear a lot. I actually wanting to do some sort of study where a child with a profound hearing raised in a TC or Bi Bi was able to develop oral skills enough to be able to communicate with the hearing community. While I know tons of signing kids can reach academic skills of their hearing skills even surpass them but also oral skills

 

[jillio]

I haven't come across any over here where I live. The only child I have that was in a TC program from preschool was a young lady that has a moderate loss so she actually hear a lot. I actually wanting to do some sort of study where a child with a profound hearing raised in a TC or Bi Bi was able to develop oral skills enough to be able to communicate with the hearing community. While I know tons of signing kids can reach academic skills of their hearing skills even surpass them but also oral skills

My son is one. He is severe to profound in his left ear, and profound in his right. And he code switches from oral communication when necessary wit hearing, to PSE with hearing signers, to ASL with his Deaf peers and formerly, his teachers.

In order to release any information regarding these students that is of a personal nature, I would have to get them to sign a release due tothe confidentiality laws that I must adhere to.

In addition, there have been numerous research studies done that indicate that sign language does not impede the development of oral skills.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Wow, here comes the defensiveness of the oral philosophy again. I am not judging you and in no way did my post imply that I was. I was expressing the viewpoint that I did not see sign as forcing a child to change their identity, but simply to accept their identity. Where do you see this as judgemental. And you may be happy with your decisions, but your contradictory statements continue to demonstrate that your children are perhaps not as successful on all levels as you would like to believe they are.
You are right there have problems and difficulties in her education, I have never said there hasn 't been. When there is problem, we fix it together but I am not now and will never been a negative. I see the problem and I take care of it and I move on and learn from our mistakes

You are right I am bit defensiveness, and can I tell you this. this is why parents of oral deaf children did not seek out the Deaf culture because we always have defend our decisions to the people in the Deaf culture. If the Deaf culture wasn't so judgement then we oral parents would seek you out more but if you are just going to judge us then what is the point. I am I have am open mind why can't you. I do seek out people who are deaf and just sing but I am sure they are not judgement as you are. I do not want that type of negative people around my children

You say that your daughter can drop her voice at any time with your support? And how would she do that and still be able to communicate with her family? You have placed her in a position of not being able to communicate with you except on your terms--oral. That, in effect, leaves her with no choice at all.

You know how my daughter knows she can drop her voice because I have told her over and over again. I have told her that if she wants to stop using her voice her dad and I will go take as many signing classes as we need. Because she sees how accepting I am of her deaf friends, because if she asks me to take her to a Deaf event or to take her to her to see her deaf I friends I do, because I have taken a couple of signing classess, because I always asking her to how to say something to her friends, I do not ask her to interpet for me to her friends I do it and when I do not know something I asked them fingerspell or I fingerspell, If you only knew how much her oral and signing friends like me, how much like coming to my home TAKE A STEP AND SEE HOW CLOSE MINDED YOU ARE

YOU ALREADY HAVE A PRE-SET IDEA OF WHO I AM AND WHAT I STAND FOR AND YOU ARE NOT OPEN TO ANY MIDDLE POINT WHERE I AM AND I AM PROUD OF MYSELF TO NOT BE SO CLOSED MINDED AS YOU ARE. I HAVE SEEN SO MANY DEAF CULTURE AND ORALIST PEOPLE BE SO CLOSED MIND THAT I MADE SURE THAT I WAS NOT LIKE THAT AND THAT MY CHILDREN ARE NOT EXPOSED TO PEOPLE LIKE THAT BUT I HAVE TOLD THEM ABOUT THE EXTREMES IN BOTH CAMPS AND I HAVE SHARED WITH YOUR POSTINGS ALONG WITH ALL THE POSTINGS. YES I AM MORE OF AN ORALIST BUT I ALSO KNOW THAT ASL IS IT'S OWN BEAUTIFUL LANGUAGE AND THAT DEAF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE A VOICE CAN BE VERY SUCCESSFUL JUST AS ORAL DEAF PEOPLE CAN BE

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Amnd the very reasons you have just cited is the reason that your daughter is having problems with her services.

So what you are saying is that because sign language is not my daughter's first language is why she is having problems at school. Although this year has been a lot of work, she received a's and b's and 2 awards of being the top student in history and the most improved student in geometry. The reason she is having problems is because school does not want to pay for the services she needs and the service that other high school provide their signing and oral deaf students.
I have another question so you mean to tell that deaf students who''s first language is sign language do not have problems at school

 

[jillio]

You know how my daughter knows she can drop her voice because I have told her over and over again. I have told her that if she wants to stop using her voice her dad and I will go take as many signing classes as we need. Because she sees how accepting I am of her deaf friends, because if she asks me to take her to a Deaf event or to take her to her to see her deaf I friends I do, because I have taken a couple of signing classess, because I always asking her to how to say something to her friends, I do not ask her to interpet for me to her friends I do it and when I do not know something I asked them fingerspell or I fingerspell, If you only knew how much her oral and signing friends like me, how much like coming to my home TAKE A STEP AND SEE HOW CLOSE MINDED YOU ARE

YOU ALREADY HAVE A PRE-SET IDEA OF WHO I AM AND WHAT I STAND FOR AND YOU ARE NOT OPEN TO ANY MIDDLE POINT WHERE I AM AND I AM PROUD OF MYSELF TO NOT BE SO CLOSED MINDED AS YOU ARE. I HAVE SEEN SO MANY DEAF CULTURE AND ORALIST PEOPLE BE SO CLOSED MIND THAT I MADE SURE THAT I WAS NOT LIKE THAT AND THAT MY CHILDREN ARE NOT EXPOSED TO PEOPLE LIKE THAT BUT I HAVE TOLD THEM ABOUT THE EXTREMES IN BOTH CAMPS AND I HAVE SHARED WITH YOUR POSTINGS ALONG WITH ALL THE POSTINGS. YES I AM MORE OF AN ORALIST BUT I ALSO KNOW THAT ASL IS IT'S OWN BEAUTIFUL LANGUAGE AND THAT DEAF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE A VOICE CAN BE VERY SUCCESSFUL JUST AS ORAL DEAF PEOPLE CAN BE

I have based my idea of who you are and what you stand for based on the information you have provided in your postings.

And, when you say deaf people that do not have a voice--once again you are applying a very limited definition to the word "voice" and assume iot means only ability to speak orally. Deaf people all have a vioce--it is chatever way they choose that allows them to speak for themselves. DeafCulture provides a voice, TTY provides voice, text provides voice, terps provide a voice, etc, etc, etc. And your statement also assumes that only those deaf who cannot speak oral language to the degree that is expected of a hearing person choose to use ASL as their primary means of communication. If you will learn a bit more about the deaf/Deafpopulation as a whole, you will find that many formerly oral deaf individuals choose ASL not because they can't speak, but because it is uncomfortable and has been the source of much discrimination for them within the hearing society.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Reread your post, please. I understand that perhaps you come from a different cultural background, and I have a strong understanding of the effect that has on behaviors that may be considered different fromthe majority. I also see that you are very controlling with your children from what you have stated. You give them options with the one hand, and then go about limiting the way in which they can achieve. You tell them they have no choice-they will go to college. Then rather than saying, but you may attend the college of your choice, you say, but no farther than an hour from home because I still want to be able to contol your life and your decisions.
Obviously, believing in the oral philosophy is very natural for you, because it, as well, is about taking away the deaf individual's autonomy.

I am controlling because I tell my children they have to go college. My opinon is that I an involved mother who wants the best for my children. I don't want to move away because I love having close to me. I do tell them that I would rather them live at home then move to a dorm. I have never told they couldn't but I do talk about staying at home. Really there isn't a choice of them going to college you are colleged do you feel the same way. In my home my husband is not colleged educated. My children see how hard and how many hours my husband has to work. They see how their father's job is just a job. Where I make more money and love what I do I always talk about my students and when I don't my children ask about them. Since you do not like my views I cannot do anything right. I would accept that most parents tell their kids that they must go to college.
YOUR MIND IS SO CLOSED DOESN'T MATTER WHAT I SAY

 

[jackiesolorzano]

It is too late for the use of CART to take care of linguistic delay. CART is very useful, but only if a student meets all of the criteria for being able to utilize it. Don't get me wrong--I recommend CART for a couple of deaf students who are postlingually deafened and have a great command and ability to use spoken and written English. I recommend it as a backup for a student with a CI that is still very sign based, but also have an interpreter in class so that the transcript makes since becasue he has gotten concept from the lecture via interpretation. I also recommend its use for students with CP, and/or dyslexia. And yes, finding solution happens to be my profession. However, the person seeking solutions has to be open minded enough and willing toadmit that what is currently being done isn't working, or those solutions go to waste.

honestly be trueful with yourself if with nobody else are you open minded. What would you do if you were in my situation

 

[jackiesolorzano]

The fact that your son is fully mainstreamed without support services, and that you also claim that he is profoundly deaf scares the hell out of me! And you are an educator?????

My son has had support services in the past. My son began in an oral SDC, we began mainstreaming him in 1st grade 1/2 day then the following year 3/4 of the day and then completely.

He has a case carrier that does not provide direct services but speaks or e-mails with his teacher at least twice a month. In 7 th grade he had not direct services. This year in his honors History class he had an adult notetake because there was a lot of language.

What I meant was that there was no direct service because he doesn't need them at this point. My decisions are always based on the indivudal need at the time and it can change.

My son is going into high school this coming year so since there is change from middle school to high school. We have asked and had it written in his IEP for an adult notetaker although his new school tried to fight me on it.

Both my children also received the services of an auditory verbal therapist twice a week and I work with them daily. We have a copy of their text books at home. I always get their coming years text books during the summer. I assign homework during summer for the coming school years book so that they have a head start. So this is why they usually do not need as much help. There are always bumps and we fix them when we come to them.

 

[jillio]

honestly be trueful with yourself if with nobody else are you open minded. What would you do if you were in my situation

Yes, I am open minded. If I were in your situation, I would do exactly as I did with my son. I realized that A) he was falling behind in elementary school, B) that you cannot rely on the public system of education to provide a deaf child with all that they need because deaf students are very, very misunderstood, C) just as you, I went to due process and won my case having him transferred to a school for the deaf where he did receive not only the educational support he needed, but the social support as well.

You see, we have both gone the route of the courts to demand services for our child. And I am open minded. Had you told me that your child was functioning at grade level, and never used sign at all, then I would say that CART alone would probably provide an adequate solution. But because you have provided information contrary to that, then I see CART as possibly helpful, but not the only thing needed.

 

[jillio]

My son has had support services in the past. My son began in an oral SDC, we began mainstreaming him in 1st grade 1/2 day then the following year 3/4 of the day and then completely.

He has a case carrier that does not provide direct services but speaks or e-mails with his teacher at least twice a month. In 7 th grade he had not direct services. This year in his honors History class he had an adult notetake because there was a lot of language.

What I meant was that there was no direct service because he doesn't need them at this point. My decisions are always based on the indivudal need at the time and it can change.

My son is going into high school this coming year so since there is change from middle school to high school. We have asked and had it written in his IEP for an adult notetaker although his new school tried to fight me on it.

Both my children also received the services of an auditory verbal therapist twice a week and I work with them daily. We have a copy of their text books at home. I always get their coming years text books during the summer. I assign homework during summer for the coming school years book so that they have a head start. So this is why they usually do not need as much help. There are always bumps and we fix them when we come to them.

Okay. Then he is receiving support services.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Obviously not.

Your Opinion and I hope not the Opinion of Deaf community out there. I wish there was some way that we could just disagree without being mean and come to a middle point for all the deaf children out there. Is there not a way that we can respect each other. I respect your decisions with your son why can't you respect mine decisions. I would love to have some place to send my parents to meet both oral and signing deaf adults and children but somewhere where they would be respect and not made to feel like they have made choices and made to feel that they do not know who their child is and do accept them for who they are

 

[jillio]

So what you are saying is that because sign language is not my daughter's first language is why she is having problems at school. Although this year has been a lot of work, she received a's and b's and 2 awards of being the top student in history and the most improved student in geometry. The reason she is having problems is because school does not want to pay for the services she needs and the service that other high school provide their signing and oral deaf students.
I have another question so you mean to tell that deaf students who''s first language is sign language do not have problems at school

Please read my words as written and don't try to reinvent my meaning. That is not what I said at all.

 

[jillio]

Your Opinion and I hope not the Opinion of Deaf community out there. I wish there was some way that we could just disagree without being mean and come to a middle point for all the deaf children out there. Is there not a way that we can respect each other. I respect your decisions with your son why can't you respect mine decisions. I would love to have some place to send my parents to meet both oral and signing deaf adults and children but somewhere where they would be respect and not made to feel like they have made choices and made to feel that they do not know who their child is and do accept them for who they are

I respect your decisions with your children. And the middle of the road is Bi-Bi. By definition an oral approach is at the other end of the spectrum. And anytime you advise a parent of a deaf child to wait until they have become so language delayed at the age of 5 before introducing sign language you have crossed into the facet of the practice of oralism that is extemely harmful to deaf children. My problem is not with your children. You are the one that used your children as an example, and therefore, that has been the example that Ih ave responded to. My problem is anyone who advances the oral methodology as first choice, and sign or TC as something to be resorted to only if oralism fails. This is the practice that creates deficits in our deaf students. And if you choose to take that risk with your own children, then that is your choice and I assume that as a parent, you will deal with the consequences of your choice. However, to advise other parents to take this risk, and especially to advise based on erroneous information such as sign impeding oral skills, is something that I cannot have tolerance for. That does nothing but obscure the truth and prevent us from making the changes in our educational system that would actually benefit the deaf student based on nothing more than communication preference of the parent.

 

[Oddball]

# 1: Ohio

# 2: Numerous

# 3 The majority.

Pardon me, May I ask you a simple question? What city in Ohio are you living in? Cleveland, Columbus, or Cincinnati? I just am curious. Thanks.

If you don't want anyone to know where city you live, you can pm me.

 

[jillio]

I am controlling because I tell my children they have to go college. My opinon is that I an involved mother who wants the best for my children. I don't want to move away because I love having close to me. I do tell them that I would rather them live at home then move to a dorm. I have never told they couldn't but I do talk about staying at home. Really there isn't a choice of them going to college you are colleged do you feel the same way. In my home my husband is not colleged educated. My children see how hard and how many hours my husband has to work. They see how their father's job is just a job. Where I make more money and love what I do I always talk about my students and when I don't my children ask about them. Since you do not like my views I cannot do anything right. I would accept that most parents tell their kids that they must go to college.
YOUR MIND IS SO CLOSED DOESN'T MATTER WHAT I SAY/COLOR]

Actually, I agree that college should be encouraged and I have no problem with that. My own son is in college, and doing quite well. But, in saying that your children "have to", you are controlling any other option they might choose.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

WTF! Why wouldn't an implant be helpful to a Spanish speaking family? If that is the language they speak, then hearing it would be as helpful as hearing English, wouldn't it? The CI isn't about spoken English. It is about oral/auditory language made accessable. There are many,many oral/auditory languages. English is the only one. And just because the parents spoke Spanish you recommended a TC program and labeled the child an oral failure? What are you thinking? Where is it that you teach? Are you certified? Do you have a degree?

Maybe I didn't explain my thoughts throughly or maybe you are just turn by who I stand for that you really didn't take the time to thin kabout what I said. Ihonestly am not sure which it is. What I am saying about Spanish speaking families that live in the United States is that if they want to implant their baby or toddler they need to learn to speak English because their child will be going to a school that only speaks English. I am not aware of the rest of the country but in California, teachers are not allowed to teach in another language it is English only. If a chld goes to school he/she will hear English and go home to Spanish. If they are to be successful they need to hear one language. There have been cases where if one parent speaks English and the other whatever other language then the child probable could learn both languages but will be more fluent in English. I would never ever tell a parent their child is a failure because I would want anyone to tell me that my child is a failure. Just because a child needs to go to a TC program does not mean they are a failure I would never tell a parent I would tell a parent that we need to add sign to help their child. Just because a deaf child needs to sign does not mean they are a failure. I do not think oral is better then signing I think oral has been good to us but not to all.
I teach in southern California. Yes, as I mention before I have a BS in child development, and MS in education, a Level II special education credential in deaf/hard of hearing and a level I special education credential in mild/moderate and I have been for about 8 years so I am a somewhat new teacher.
Times are changing.