District files appeal against deaf student

[jackiesolorzano]

I've got one! Only he isn't a toddler anymore. And the reason there are problems with simcom is because ASL has a different syntax than English, and therefore, you nearly need to be a magician to sign ASL and speak Enlgish at the same time. The MCE systems do not facilitate understanding in the same way that ASL does, and are merely another method to make English visable. If one is trying to teach English, one cannot do it in this way. That is where the B-Bi method comes in, and it is a great improvement over the current TC methodology.

I would love to see the study would you mind e-mailing it to me.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

The Tracy Clinic is notoriously oralist in their philosophy, just like A.G. Bell. And they actually recoomend practices that increse the linguistic deprivation of deaf kids, and promote the viewpoint that sign language is inferior to spoken.

Yes, John Tracy Clinic is oral program but they do let parents know when they think their child might not be able to be oral and need signs

 

[jillio]

Maybe I didn't explain my thoughts throughly or maybe you are just turn by who I stand for that you really didn't take the time to thin kabout what I said. Ihonestly am not sure which it is. What I am saying about Spanish speaking families that live in the United States is that if they want to implant their baby or toddler they need to learn to speak English because their child will be going to a school that only speaks English. I am not aware of the rest of the country but in California, teachers are not allowed to teach in another language it is English only. If a chld goes to school he/she will hear English and go home to Spanish. If they are to be successful they need to hear one language. There have been cases where if one parent speaks English and the other whatever other language then the child probable could learn both languages but will be more fluent in English. I would never ever tell a parent their child is a failure because I would want anyone to tell me that my child is a failure. Just because a child needs to go to a TC program does not mean they are a failure I would never tell a parent I would tell a parent that we need to add sign to help their child. Just because a deaf child needs to sign does not mean they are a failure. I do not think oral is better then signing I think oral has been good to us but not to all.
I teach in southern California. Yes, as I mention before I have a BS in child development, and MS in education, a Level II special education credential in deaf/hard of hearing and a level I special education credential in mild/moderate and I have been for about 8 years so I am a somewhat new teacher.
Times are changing.

I agree that if the child and the parents are living in an area that does not speak Spanish, it would be more beneficial for the parents to learn the language of English. However, I cannot agree that language spoken at home would be used as a criteria for not recommending CI.... if a CI implanted child is able to acquire any spoken language, be it English or Spanish, or any other, in a natural environment, it will benefit them educationally.

 

[jillio]

Yes, John Tracy Clinic is oral program but they do let parents know when they think their child might not be able to be oral and need signs

Yep, and that is what makes them oralists.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

And you allegedly service deaf children with cis, that scares me a hell of a lot more!

I did not explain clearly why my son was currently not receiving services. He has and will always received indirect services but he wasn't recieving direct services. I explain in another post how he is serviced.
The problem I am having is that it really doesn't matter what I say, I am an oralist and a lot of people on this site are from the Deaf culture not that is wrong but in your minds I am wrong and your are right.

 

[jillio]

I would love to see the study would you mind e-mailing it to me.

Actually, that's not a study--it's my kid! Regarding the studies and research doen on the other issues I mentioned, they can be found in numerous professional journals and books. I am surprised that you didn't run across any of them completing your master's degree. What was your thesis on?

 

[jackiesolorzano]

She is not open minded about allowing some deaf kids falling thru the cracks academically and socio-emotionally just because they were unable to pick up on oral language or were left out a lot/missing out a lot in the education system. That's a good reason to be closed minded cuz it is about them not about u or us.

There no acceptable reason to be close mind. We can learn new things if our mind is closed. We can work with each other if our minds are closed. We can find solutions together if our mind is closed. Times are changing and we cannot stay the same that is not going to help anyone.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

And those that are threatened by it usually have not earned anything comparable.

I am not threatened by your degrees. I know that you mention your BS is not an educational area. The only reason I mention is because then you asked me mine. I already stated before what my are. My complete college education was in education because I did not go back to college until after I had my children. I am glad you are getting your PH.D.

Again I have a BS in child development, an MS in education, a level II special education credential in deaf/ hard of hearing, and a level I special education credential in mild/moderate. I am a fully credential teacher and have taught for about 8 years so I am a somewhat newer teacher.

 

[jillio]

I am not threatened by your degrees. I know that you mention your BS is not an educational area. The only reason I mention is because then you asked me mine. I already stated before what my are. My complete college education was in education because I did not go back to college until after I had my children. I am glad you are getting your PH.D.

Again I have a BS in child development, an MS in education, a level II special education credential in deaf/ hard of hearing, and a level I special education credential in mild/moderate. I am a fully credential teacher and have taught for about 8 years so I am a somewhat newer teacher.

And did I say that you were? No, I believe that was in response to another poster. My BS, as you read, is in psychology, my M.ed is in counseling education, and my PhD will be in the same field. I also hold certification in deafness and mental health.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I see. You would prefer that they go without services and therefore, are inadequately educated. Shame on you!

I think what Ric means and what I know I mean is that you provide the services that that chlid needs. You do not just give them what you give all deaf students. These deaf children are individuals and you need to make decision on their needs. I have 2 deaf oral teenagers and they each have different services based on their needs.

 

[jillio]

I think what Ric means and what I know I mean is that you provide the services that that chlid needs. You do not just give them what you give all deaf students. These deaf children are individuals and you need to make decision on their needs. I have 2 deaf oral teenagers and they each have different services based on their needs.

No, that isn't what rick48 meant. His words were an attempt to discredit and insult. If you will go back and read some of the discussions in other forums, you will perhaps have a better understanding of the dynamics at work here.

 

[shel90]

Jackie..u said this:

There no acceptable reason to be close mind. We can learn new things if our mind is closed. We can work with each other if our minds are closed. We can find solutions together if our mind is closed. Times are changing and we cannot stay the same that is not going to help anyone.

This is what I am referring to being closed minded about..see below

I respect your decisions with your children. And the middle of the road is Bi-Bi. By definition an oral approach is at the other end of the spectrum. And anytime you advise a parent of a deaf child to wait until they have become so language delayed at the age of 5 before introducing sign language you have crossed into the facet of the practice of oralism that is extemely harmful to deaf children. My problem is not with your children. You are the one that used your children as an example, and therefore, that has been the example that Ih ave responded to. My problem is anyone who advances the oral methodology as first choice, and sign or TC as something to be resorted to only if oralism fails. This is the practice that creates deficits in our deaf students. And if you choose to take that risk with your own children, then that is your choice and I assume that as a parent, you will deal with the consequences of your choice. However, to advise other parents to take this risk, and especially to advise based on erroneous information such as sign impeding oral skills, is something that I cannot have tolerance for. That does nothing but obscure the truth and prevent us from making the changes in our educational system that would actually benefit the deaf student based on nothing more than communication preference of the parent.

How can one be open minded about this issue? Unless u and others think that is ok but for me I am not ok with taking risks to deaf/hoh children's language development like that so with that issue, I refuse to open my mind about cuz I dont see a justification for allowing deaf children to be language deprived if they are not able to pick up oral language and then being exposed to signing at an older age. That's what I meant about Jillo being close minded..just only with that issue alone. Like she said, that's where the BiBi approach comes in..it is using both instead of at being the extreme ends of the spectrum. Jillo and I are not saying ASL only for deaf ed...just use both. So, u want a middle ground, then that would be using both approaches to all deaf/hoh children from the very start.

 

[jillio]

Jackie..u said this:

There no acceptable reason to be close mind. We can learn new things if our mind is closed. We can work with each other if our minds are closed. We can find solutions together if our mind is closed. Times are changing and we cannot stay the same that is not going to help anyone.

This is what I am referring to being closed minded about..see below

I respect your decisions with your children. And the middle of the road is Bi-Bi. By definition an oral approach is at the other end of the spectrum. And anytime you advise a parent of a deaf child to wait until they have become so language delayed at the age of 5 before introducing sign language you have crossed into the facet of the practice of oralism that is extemely harmful to deaf children. My problem is not with your children. You are the one that used your children as an example, and therefore, that has been the example that Ih ave responded to. My problem is anyone who advances the oral methodology as first choice, and sign or TC as something to be resorted to only if oralism fails. This is the practice that creates deficits in our deaf students. And if you choose to take that risk with your own children, then that is your choice and I assume that as a parent, you will deal with the consequences of your choice. However, to advise other parents to take this risk, and especially to advise based on erroneous information such as sign impeding oral skills, is something that I cannot have tolerance for. That does nothing but obscure the truth and prevent us from making the changes in our educational system that would actually benefit the deaf student based on nothing more than communication preference of the parent.[/

How can one be open minded about this issue? Unless u and others think that is ok but for me I am not ok with taking risks to deaf/hoh children's language development like that so with that issue, I refuse to open my mind about cuz I dont see a justification for allowing deaf children to be language deprived if they are not able to pick up oral language and then being exposed to signing at an older age. That's what I meant about Jillo being close minded..just only with that issue alone. Like she said, that's where the BiBi approach comes in..it is using both instead of at being the extreme ends of the spectrum. Jillo and I are not saying ASL only for deaf ed...just use both. So, u want a middle ground, then that would be using both approaches to all deaf/hoh children from the very start.

Yeah, if being closed minded means refusing to accept the less than adequate educational experience of deaf children, and accepting the discrimination and harm perpetrated on them then I am guilty. But I say that with pride, because I personally could not live with myself if I simply stood by and watched the injsutice contiue to happen simply becasue no one wants to buck the system and risk being labled militant or closed minded.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Yes, I am open minded. If I were in your situation, I would do exactly as I did with my son. I realized that A) he was falling behind in elementary school, B) that you cannot rely on the public system of education to provide a deaf child with all that they need because deaf students are very, very misunderstood,
You are right you cannot depend soley on the public school system, this why my children are lucky to have to go help them where they need it.

C) just as you, I went to due process and won my case having him transferred to a school for the deaf where he did receive not only the educational support he needed, but the social support as well.

You see, we have both gone the route of the courts to demand services for our child. And I am open minded. Had you told me that your child was functioning at grade level,
But my children are functioning at grade level. I am not saying it has been easy but they are at grade levels and my son is actually function above grade level and this why he does not need direct services. and never used sign at all, then I would say that CART alone would probably provide an adequate solution. But because you have provided information contrary to that, then I see CART as possibly helpful, but not the only thing needed.

I am glad that if you were to do everything over again you make the same decision with your son. Just as I would. I am sure your decision were right for your son. Just I as I would also make the same decisions and I am happy overall with the progress of my chlldren. It has not been easy but we have made together.

You say you are open mind but I just read where you say you are closed mind. You also mention that I say contrary statements. I agree with you there because I get so I don't I don't the right words, I want to find a way to respect each other and come together but maybe I wishing for too much. I just want to find a way where we can disagree on philosphy and come together for the greater god of all deaf children and accept that we have taken different paths. And this is why sometime my mind thinks so much faster then my fingers.

 

[shel90]

I am not threatened by your degrees. I know that you mention your BS is not an educational area. The only reason I mention is because then you asked me mine. I already stated before what my are. My complete college education was in education because I did not go back to college until after I had my children. I am glad you are getting your PH.D.

Again I have a BS in child development, an MS in education, a level II special education credential in deaf/ hard of hearing, and a level I special education credential in mild/moderate. I am a fully credential teacher and have taught for about 8 years so I am a somewhat newer teacher.

Is your MS in deaf education or special education? I have a BA in special ed and it only mentioned deaf ed in one class for only ONE lecture in the 2 years while in the program and I have a MA degree in Deaf Ed and my graduate work is all 60+ credits in the education of the deaf/hoh only. I learned a lot from my grad work due to classes like language acquisition, English and ASL linguistics, audiology, and all the difference educational approaches of deaf children, the influence of ASL on language acquisition and literacy skills...before all those classes, I thought I knew a lot about deaf ed but I didnt.

Not to discredit u but deaf education is completely different from special ed. Just not sure if u are aware of that? Many people are not ..I wasnt aware of all these issues before taking those classes. They opened up my eyes about the issues to why deaf/hoh children have low levels of reading and writing. Growing up, I blamed the deaf schools for doing a lousy job with the kids but when I learned all these factors impacting their literacy levels, I realized that I was wrong.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Actually, I agree that college should be encouraged and I have no problem with that. My own son is in college, and doing quite well. But, in saying that your children "have to", you are controlling any other option they might choose.

I have and will always say they have too go to college but if for some reason they don't then depending on why it will be OK. I just want them to have it in their minds that they have to go. It is not matter of controlling it is a matter of getting them ready to be independent adults that do not have to depend on someone or something else to support themselves comfortable and doing something they love while make enough money.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I respect your decisions with your children. And the middle of the road is Bi-Bi. By definition an oral approach is at the other end of the spectrum. And anytime you advise a parent of a deaf child to wait until they have become so language delayed at the age of 5 before introducing sign language you have crossed into the facet of the practice of oralism that is extemely harmful to deaf children. My problem is not with your children. You are the one that used your children as an example, and therefore, that has been the example that Ih ave responded to. My problem is anyone who advances the oral methodology as first choice, and sign or TC as something to be resorted to only if oralism fails. This is the practice that creates deficits in our deaf students. And if you choose to take that risk with your own children, then that is your choice and I assume that as a parent, you will deal with the consequences of your choice. However, to advise other parents to take this risk, and especially to advise based on erroneous information such as sign impeding oral skills, is something that I cannot have tolerance for. That does nothing but obscure the truth and prevent us from making the changes in our educational system that would actually benefit the deaf student based on nothing more than communication preference of the parent.

Maybe I didn't explain myself correctly what I meant by the middle road is we should respect each other and the choices we make

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I respect your decisions with your children. And the middle of the road is Bi-Bi. By definition an oral approach is at the other end of the spectrum. And anytime you advise a parent of a deaf child to wait until they have become so language delayed at the age of 5 before introducing sign language you have crossed into the facet of the practice of oralism that is extemely harmful to deaf children. My problem is not with your children. You are the one that used your children as an example, and therefore, that has been the example that Ih ave responded to. My problem is anyone who advances the oral methodology as first choice, and sign or TC as something to be resorted to only if oralism fails. This is the practice that creates deficits in our deaf students. And if you choose to take that risk with your own children, then that is your choice and I assume that as a parent, you will deal with the consequences of your choice. However, to advise other parents to take this risk, and especially to advise based on erroneous information such as sign impeding oral skills, is something that I cannot have tolerance for. That does nothing but obscure the truth and prevent us from making the changes in our educational system that would actually benefit the deaf student based on nothing more than communication preference of the parent.

Let me make something clear when I asked to talk to newly diagnosis parents I do not tell them they should choose oral. I tell them about all the different approaches. I also tell them about the appraoches that are available in their area but that if there is approach that they want to use and is not available that they can fight for. If they want to be oral, I make sure they know how hard it is and the work involved. I also tell them that they should read about all the appraoches. I tell them that I have seen many successful oral kids and well as the kids educated in a TC envirnoment. I also tell if they want to speak a parent that raised their child in a TC program I could arrange through one of my daughter's friends. In my area that is the only 2 approaches we have. I do tell them about Bi-Bi but that there isn't a program close by that is just a fact. Me personally feelings if Bi-Bi is what I want then I would move to an area that had. We have moved in the past to areas that had better programs for our children.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

My son is one. He is severe to profound in his left ear, and profound in his right. And he code switches from oral communication when necessary wit hearing, to PSE with hearing signers, to ASL with his Deaf peers and formerly, his teachers.

In order to release any information regarding these students that is of a personal nature, I would have to get them to sign a release due tothe confidentiality laws that I must adhere to.

In addition, there have been numerous research studies done that indicate that sign language does not impede the development of oral skills.

I have also found many research articles stating that sign language does impede oral language.
I think I said this once if you are looking you can almost always find an article to support what you think. I know I have found articles on both sides. Can you agree that?

 

[shel90]

Maybe I didn't explain myself correctly what I meant by the middle road is we should respect each other and the choices we make

What about the children who suffered being deprived of language because their parents put them in oral only programs and to find out years later, they didnt develop full language acquistion and then having to switch to sign? If I say that I respect all parents' decision in doing that, then that means I am going against my beliefs that lead me into the decision to be a teacher for the deaf/hoh? I wouldnt feel good about myself so that's why I speak up against that kind of practice. I work with bright students who are reading 3 grades below at their age appropriate levels and they are so frustrated about reading and writing cuz it doesnt make sense to them since they missed out on language development during their first 5 years. I guess u can say that I am not here for the parents but here for the children. If that makes me unwilling to compromise, then so be it. My heart is for the children and I hate seeing them struggle when it didnt have to be that way. Sometimes, I go home crying cuz their self-esteem is so low and they are already exhibiting a lot of anger and that hurts me to see them that way all simply because they were deprived of full access to language.