Designing A Hearing Baby

[Audiofuzzy]

And again, it's interesting that when an article shows something YOU don't like, you bring up "statistics are very easily manipulated"....I haven't seen you questioning statistics you have brought up...

Fuzzy

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I'm not qualify for a CI currently.

Why?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I am ALMOST 40 years old! next month.... But my brain level is just like a 2 or 3 years old child with hearing words! so I will have to write down words on what I hear without looking etc... (that's my guess on age's level for words concept knowing without looking or reading)

Yes I know what you mean. If you train to hear the sounds without looking or reading, your brain level work like 2 years old. It's good to know that you are willing to work hard to train to hear the sounds for 6 years. What do you feel how brain level you are now after 6 years training... I mean your brain level after 6 years training.?

Similar example with me -

I left England to live in Germany when I was 22 years old in 1985. My brain level is one to two years old when I struggle to understand German language (read/writing/speak). I willing to work hard to learn German. It took me 6 month to familiar with German atmosphere and languages after moved to live in Germany... Now I am 44 years old and feel that I am German and have good German level as English level as well. I use German language with my family and use English and German at work place.

I beleive that you will have brain level as adult when you keep work hard...

Someone asked me the risk of doing another ear, if I done another ear surgery, in about 10 or 20 years later there's new technology come out but may not work for me anymore cuz I got implanted in both ear(IF that happen), then I told him, Look, I will be 40 next month, I dont even want to wait any longer for another 10 or 20 years because I will be too old to LEARN allover again.. I would rather get it done now, If it failed on my right ear, then i accept the risk, but if it work, I will be happy to work along with my children, and my family...

Yes I second that. If you are happy with your decision then go for it.

Remember, that the age is only number... As long as you are fit and healthy...

My family support me to get ANOTHER CI on my right ear.. that's why I went for the evaluations yesterday!

Wendy

Wish you best of good luck

 

[Liebling:-)))]

No,that's not what she is saying. She is saying that testing performed in a laboratory or controlled situation does not always apply to real life because in real life too many extraneous variables cannot be controlled for.

Exactly, that's what I repeated in my previous posts.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

It took me 6 month to familiar with German atmosphere and languages after moved to live in Germany... Now I am 44 years old and feel that I am German and have good German level as English level as well. I use German language with my family and use English and German at work place.

You are amazing !

Fuzzy

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Now Liebling let's not go crazy with the "facts not correct" theme because of Flip's article, OK?
just because something is a "fact" does not mean it is suspicious on principle.

No, it's not first time I said this - I did said this at debate threads several times in the past when the posters claimed that they beleive in fact is websites, etc..

It's one thing to be wary of a few million scientific studies another to say "it's a fact the sun is bright". or are you going to argue now that the sun being bright is not correct fact, too?

I never say that scientific studies are alway wrong or 100% wrong but "not alway correct". Get it?

I said: turns out Puyo couldn't wear CI. So Puyo couldn't exercise, exercise, exercise hearing with CI. remember what the other poster said: "I am 40 but my brain is like 2- 3 year old, I have to learn how to hear with CI" ??

Remember, each person is different.

That is why I said maybe if Puyo was not having problems with his mouth and headaches, THEN maybe he would use CI more and more, and more, and with time he, too, could learn how to hear over the phone.
we won't know it because he can't use CI. but it's possible it WOULD be better.
that is why I said Puyo don't know if the CI would work better for him or not because he can't spend more time on it. he only spend 4 months wearing it. not Puyo fault.

Well, I personally beleive it's about human's motivation itself. Like what I said before, CI cannot work itself if a person didn't moviate enough.

Anyone cannot force a person to learn to hear the sounds, etc or whatever when he or she don't have good motivation enough.

Puyo is not only first person who say this... I know people want to have CI out of curiousity or for gratis because they know Healthcare pay 100% for them... After that they are regretted... Some work great on them and some not.

Puyo did not get information enough from his Audiologist. He would not have CI if he know it's work hard to train to hear the sound/speech development.

Yes, but you have to first learn to separate many layers surrounding speech and language development.

Language and speech development has nothing with CI or HA itself but people themselves.

You must separate them,and dicuss them separately or we will never clear this up.

Yes I know that speech and language development should be separate. I notice that some posters claimed that CI help deaf to develop speech and language skill which it's not true.

From biological point of view, human brain is NOT finished developing AFTER birth. I mean the body of the brain (in the head) is done, but the processes that happen inside the brain are not.

When the baby is born, the brain is making neural pathways connections, thus is developing.
this happens regardless of any parental intervention, it is just a part of human development.

Yes I aware it.

BUT

the brain will develop as much as much it receives stimuli from the outside.
the more stimuli, the more developed brain. to develop ability to hear and speak you need to hear sounds, and so you repeat what you hear, and thus develop speech.

This is when the CI and parents enter.

Without ability to hear, no matter what will the parents do the deaf baby will not hear, and the baby's brain will not make neural connections.
After the age of three the making of these connections slow down and eventually stop. No matter how much stimuli AFTER that age - the brain is mostly finished making connections. It won't learn much anymore. It will some but never as much as before age of three.

If the deaf baby is implanted with CI, then the baby can hear.

If the baby is implanted before the age of three, the brain will make as many connections as the baby will hear sounds from the outside - because the brain is still in the actively developing mode.
Now, if the baby will only be implanted with CI but not be exposed to sounds - then the baby will hear some but not as much as the baby who will spend a lot of time in hearing therapy.

If the deaf baby will not have CI, or only HA before the age of 3, then the baby will not hear antyhing or only as much as HA allows. Thus no matter how much parents will work the baby's brain will not be developing as much sounds as in the baby with CI.

That is why it is important to understand first the process of human development from purely biological point of view, before start mixing it with raising a baby.

Do you understand me now?

Yes I know what you talking about.

Like what I said before that it's depend on bad or good enviornment to develop babies like this. No matter either HA or CI itself help...

Let me tell you the example: A little girl, my youngest son's child-minder (who developed him with speech skill) foster. Child-Minder told me sad story about her. She has a healthy brain and can hear but she can't talk and can't hear... She was being neglect by her own mother.

The gender changing surgery is not done for under 18 years old anyway. Unless it's medical matter requiring immediate decision.
besides this is completely different situation - it has nothing to do with brain developing senses before age of 3.. and anyway I only was asked "what would I do if". I support both in those cases.

Okay, see this link -

http://www.alldeaf.com/current-events/38407-tim-become-kim-age-14-a.html

I am sorry but I don't get you. I am saying some deaf people can not hear with HA because their hearing loss is too great. But they can hear with CI (if implanted).

It's same thing with HA as well.

Correct

Now you know that...

Oh, I see you do know that

No, it's me who repeat those word in previous posts but you kept on change and disagree with me until you said that I do know that...

?????

You understood my post... See your respond this...

Correct, but again from "biological" POV they do hear every sound that surrounds them. Just because their parents are deaf are unable to speak doesn't mean they do not produce ANY sounds. On the contrary deaf people can be very noisy - they watch TV loud, they move about making a lot of sounds, majority of deaf people do have some ability to speak so they do communciate verbally with their babies (googoo, coo etc) and so on.
the baby hears all that, and also if you take your baby anywhere - shopping, playground, doctor's office -anywhere - the baby IS exposed to sound.
so the conenctions in the brain DO happen, just not in as optimal way as of the baby's with hearing parents. and like you say they catch up later well. I knew that.

I have seen that happen many times, and without exception all the children were able to develop speech.

Not alway.

That is great! you are a great parent.

for compliment because I accept what they are when I know they are different as me.

As you probably read about human development by now, I would say yes just hearing is what matter most. any sounds.

To me, most important is good moviation to develop in good way with the help from their parents.

No, I do accept all, it's just I like to have explanation why something is not working as it should. was it because the child was born deaf and implanted past the age of three? was it because it was implanted before the age of three but not taught speech and sounds immediately? was the hearing loss more pronounced than it was first thought? was the adult implantee willing to work as hard as it is needed? was the body rejecting implant? is the hearing loss type not right for the CI? etc.
Not every implanted person is well infomed about all this. For example, some people didn't knew it will be so much hard work to learn to hear.
Some don't understand the importance of early implantation.

Yes, I know that Cloggy already showed me 4 pictures... but it still make no difference...

IF my parents implanted me with CI and neglect their time with me... and think I can do by my own... I would not speak like HOH/hearing no matter either I wear CI nor HA. Sure, I can hear... what???... haaaa bird sing... what? haaaaa fly... etc... - with no moviation enough.

Correct, but if the child can't hear all the parental work in the world won't help. One depends on the other.

Fuzzy

Yes, that's right... see above....

 

[Liebling:-)))]

You are amazing !

Fuzzy

but I alway still learn everyday when something new come like everyone.

 

[WBHarley]

Liebling

Yes I know what you mean. If you train to hear the sounds without looking or reading, your brain level work like 2 years old. It's good to know that you are willing to work hard to train to hear the sounds for 6 years. What do you feel how brain level you are now after 6 years training... I mean your brain level after 6 years training.?

Similar example with me -

I left England to live in Germany when I was 22 years old in 1985. My brain level is one to two years old when I struggle to understand German language (read/writing/speak). I willing to work hard to learn German. It took me 6 month to familiar with German atmosphere and languages after moved to live in Germany... Now I am 44 years old and feel that I am German and have good German level as English level as well. I use German language with my family and use English and German at work place.

I beleive that you will have brain level as adult when you keep work hard...

Actually

you adapt your language from the moves, your husband is deaf? so you learn sign language from him and read etc ..

for CI user's They have to adapt to hear each words.. which is over billions WORDS to hear etc. Unless they are good at it.. but for me.. It failed even when I was LITTLE!
so It takes long time to adapt for adult to get use to it... even for a profound deaf adult etc..
yes I work hard now.. but REMEMBER--- when my middle child Sean was in Hopsital for his brain tumor treatment, I PUT myself on HOLD for years! because I want to FOCUS on my son first, make sure he get all of his treatment done on time etc... From October 31, 2003 till Jan 26, 2005 was his last day of Chemo treatment, but he had every 3 months follow up for 1 year, then every 6 month for another 1 year, Now he has every 1 year. Now he is almost 3 years chemo free! so,for 4 years on my own break from Oct 31, 2003 to now it is my turn and It is time for me to focus on myself to get into things.



This is why I also Recommend and agree that child is better to get implant at early ages so they can go into flow with their language levels and learning...
Even using with bi-bi languages etc..
Yes I second that. If you are happy with your decision then go for it.

Remember, that the age is only number... As long as you are fit and healthy...


Its only a number yes..
Yes I am happy with my decision and thank you for respecting

But it's just best way for the child to adapt it at their levels!

Wish you best of good luck

Thank you for wish my luck

 

[deafskeptic]

Why?

Her country has more stringent requirements than than my country does. If I lived in her country, I wouldn't qualify either.

 

[Angel]

Her country has more stringent requirements than than my country does. If I lived in her country, I wouldn't qualify either.

Highland is a male not a female

 

[jillio]

That was my point, thanks for supporting it.

Exactly. But I still don't think he gets it.

 

[jillio]

That's just Jilliospeak for I have no counter argument so rather than admit you are right, I'll just insult you.

Taken the research methods course as well as 4 or 5 courses on statistics.

Please tell us how sign language skills are relevent to a test of whether a deaf person with a cochlear implant can hear someone speaking bisyllabic words WITHOUT any visual clues?

In what discipline? And, exactly where did I say that sign language skills were relevant to someone with a CI hearing spoken bisyylabic workd without visual cues? Try to keep up with the discussion, rick.

And, exactly how does that realate to the topic of the discussion in any way, shape, or form? The discussion was on the moral and ethical issues of "Designing a Hearing Baby."

 

[jillio]

Or could it be that since the first time of a childs life, hearing is very important in order to develop speech. Starting to hear will delay that phase for 1 to 3 years, so speech therapy is used to catch up...

After all, people that became deaf later in life and used CI speak without any problems...... According to your thinking, that indicates that "CI gives perfect hearing".....

No, speech therapy is used to refine oral skills. Why is it that oral skills are the all important issue?

 

[jillio]

Now Liebling let's not go crazy with the "facts not correct" theme because of Flip's article, OK?
just because something is a "fact" does not mean it is suspicious on principle.

It's one thing to be wary of a few million scientific studies another to say "it's a fact the sun is bright". or are you going to argue now that the sun being bright is not correct fact, too?

I said: turns out Puyo couldn't wear CI. So Puyo couldn't exercise, exercise, exercise hearing with CI. remember what the other poster said: "I am 40 but my brain is like 2- 3 year old, I have to learn how to hear with CI" ??

That is why I said maybe if Puyo was not having problems with his mouth and headaches, THEN maybe he would use CI more and more, and more, and with time he, too, could learn how to hear over the phone.
we won't know it because he can't use CI. but it's possible it WOULD be better.
that is why I said Puyo don't know if the CI would work better for him or not because he can't spend more time on it. he only spend 4 months wearing it. not Puyo fault.






Yes, but you have to first learn to separate many layers surrounding speech and language development.
You must separate them,and dicuss them separately or we will never clear this up.
From biological point of view, human brain is NOT finished developing AFTER birth. I mean the body of the brain (in the head) is done, but the processes that happen inside the brain are not.

When the baby is born, the brain is making neural pathways connections, thus is developing.
this happens regardless of any parental intervention, it is just a part of human development.


BUT

the brain will develop as much as much it receives stimuli from the outside.
the more stimuli, the more developed brain. to develop ability to hear and speak you need to hear sounds, and so you repeat what you hear, and thus develop speech.

This is when the CI and parents enter.

Without ability to hear, no matter what will the parents do the deaf baby will not hear, and the baby's brain will not make neural connections.
After the age of three the making of these connections slow down and eventually stop. No matter how much stimuli AFTER that age - the brain is mostly finished making connections. It won't learn much anymore. It will some but never as much as before age of three.

If the deaf baby is implanted with CI, then the baby can hear.

If the baby is implanted before the age of three, the brain will make as many connections as the baby will hear sounds from the outside - because the brain is still in the actively developing mode.
Now, if the baby will only be implanted with CI but not be exposed to sounds - then the baby will hear some but not as much as the baby who will spend a lot of time in hearing therapy.

If the deaf baby will not have CI, or only HA before the age of 3, then the baby will not hear antyhing or only as much as HA allows. Thus no matter how much parents will work the baby's brain will not be developing as much sounds as in the baby with CI.

That is why it is important to understand first the process of human development from purely biological point of view, before start mixing it with raising a baby.

Do you understand me now?







The gender changing surgery is not done for under 18 years old anyway. Unless it's medical matter requiring immediate decision.
besides this is completely different situation - it has nothing to do with brain developing senses before age of 3.. and anyway I only was asked "what would I do if". I support both in those cases.





I am sorry but I don't get you. I am saying some deaf people can not hear with HA because their hearing loss is too great. But they can hear with CI (if implanted).







Again, you must separate the subject of discussion because I am confused - what are you discussing, exactly? the technological POV or practical POV?
I was talking about technology. Only.
From technological POV the simplest CI is way more advanced than most advanced HA. because HA can only amplify sounds while the CI does more than that.
From practical POV of course just putting either CI or HA in there is not enough to have benefits.




Correct, but also don't forget about human development from biological POV.




Oh, I see you do know that





?????





Correct, but again from "biological" POV they do hear every sound that surrounds them. Just because their parents are deaf are unable to speak doesn't mean they do not produce ANY sounds. On the contrary deaf people can be very noisy - they watch TV loud, they move about making a lot of sounds, majority of deaf people do have some ability to speak so they do communciate verbally with their babies (googoo, coo etc) and so on.
the baby hears all that, and also if you take your baby anywhere - shopping, playground, doctor's office -anywhere - the baby IS exposed to sound.
so the conenctions in the brain DO happen, just not in as optimal way as of the baby's with hearing parents. and like you say they catch up later well. I knew that.



I have seen that happen many times, and without exception all the children were able to develop speech.



That is great! you are a great parent.





As you probably read about human development by now, I would say yes just hearing is what matter most. any sounds.





No, I do accept all, it's just I like to have explanation why something is not working as it should. was it because the child was born deaf and implanted past the age of three? was it because it was implanted before the age of three but not taught speech and sounds immediately? was the hearing loss more pronounced than it was first thought? was the adult implantee willing to work as hard as it is needed? was the body rejecting implant? is the hearing loss type not right for the CI? etc.
Not every implanted person is well infomed about all this. For example, some people didn't knew it will be so much hard work to learn to hear.
Some don't understand the importance of early implantation.



Correct, but if the child can't hear all the parental work in the world won't help. One depends on the other.

Fuzzy

What year is this?

 

[jillio]

Fuzzy

Oh, but I do question them. That's why I insist on reading the entire article, methodolgy, analysis, and conclusions. I need to see how the data was collected, how the variables were controlled for, what the original hypothesis was and whether or not it was supported, how the sample was chosen, what psychometrics were used, what extraneous variable were not controlled for, and the limitations of applicability. Do you do the same? Evidently not.

 

[jillio]

Of course there's a difference with every child. And Lotte might be doing very well, or she might be average, or lacking.

BUT, in a study like the one I showed, there kind of differences would be averaged out. Because, the same as you suggest for Lotte and another child is valid for the children in the other columns. Over there there are also children that are doing great with their CI, and some that perform below that.

The graphs show the avarage performance. And THAT shows a gignificant difference between early implantation, and later..

Doesn't account for outliers.

 

[jillio]

True. It's easy to lie with statistics. That does not mean all statistics lie.
Then again, it's also easy to show real differences with statistics.
And, when the differences are this big, like in the graph I showed, it can hardly be due to statistics. It is due to the results...

And again, it's interesting that when an article shows something YOU don't like, you bring up "statistics are very easily manipulated".... Without any foundation as to why the article / statistics could be wrong... It's just a cheap shot at an article you don't like
I haven't seen you questioning statistics you have brought up...

Let's face it. The article clearly shows the benefit of early implantation. YOU might not like it, but there it is.

But for parents of a deaf child, the first first decision they have to make for their child is to have the child grow up with - or without sound.
If the decision is to have it grow up with sound, research like this is helping them in making the decision about WHEN to implant...

I did not say that statistics lie. What I said was that statistics are easily manipulated. There is a difference.

Why is it that anytime the limitations of a study you supposedly support are pointed out, its a cheap shot? Aren't you secure enough in your position to discuss those limitations?

So, now its not "if" to implant, but "when" to implant. So, do you propose that CI become mandatory now for all deaf children, leaving the only question as to when? What happened to parental choice. If you support choice, it must go both ways.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Oh, but I do question them. That's why I insist on reading the entire article, methodolgy, analysis, and conclusions. I need to see how the data was collected, how the variables were controlled for, what the original hypothesis was and whether or not it was supported, how the sample was chosen, what psychometrics were used, what extraneous variable were not controlled for, and the limitations of applicability.

Only, sadly, you can't make heads or tails out of all this, and that's too bad.

look it's clear to me now - you feel threatened because of your own decision regarding implanting your child. Just because you CHOSE whatever you have chosed for your child, you need to convince YOURSELF in the first place that you made the right decision.
You simply feel threatened by any infomation that could cause you doubt your own choice.

Fuzzy

 

[shel90]

Got into a huge spat with my friends today cuz one of our friend's cousin just had a baby and the baby is deaf. The parents are thinking about getting a CI and my friends were telling this person to tell her cousin not to implant her baby and blah blah. I told them that it is none of their business and I got accused of being Anti-deaf culture...I never WIN! LOLOL!!!

I get accused of being anti-CI here and now I am being accused of being anti-Deaf culture. I had to laugh at the irony of it. My friend who has the cousin and I had a long talk after the spat. She agrees with me that it is nobody's business but her cousin's. Oh boyyyyyyyyyyiiiieeeeee!


I still stand by my opinion...to both hearing and deaf people. I am neutral just want ASL used as language development immediately rather than wait for the child to learn how to process the auditory input. That's what I told my friends but they are stubborn.

R2D2 said it right..."Cant please everyone at all times."

 

[Audiofuzzy]

I understand what are you saying and how you feel, Shel.
I am for both CI and being oral (if possible) and ASL and deaf culture, but because I believe in early implantation and all I am called and audist and the likes, even worse. But I don't take it to heart beacause I understand some people mean well but lack information to truly know what this is all about. Many flat out don't get the gist of what am I saying.

I hope you, too don't take it personally.
Whatever our disagreements are, and I do accept the possibility of being mistaken about you - I think your stance on CI is clear - you are not against or pro, you are neutral, you realise the CI potential to be truly useful and you believe in personal choice on both parents and adults sides.
You were right to tell "back off and let the parents make their own choice". But you already know that

Fuzzy