Designing A Hearing Baby

[Liebling:-)))]

Ahhh
These ages... they could be like I used to be... Innocent and just do what I can do and do the best when I was child....
Now I just let it go flow and go with it....
I was talking with the audie today... the rhymes are so tough to figure out without looking lips or signs..... but I did admit to her that my daughter out of blue tells me when I pronounce words she correct me... later in the day I tell my husband.. Why he didn't let me know... why my 13 yrs old daughter who I rather them to enjoy their childhood first.... I know I know.. She loves me... I loves her... she and I help out each other with many things.... so then I said to my mother the same thing.. Lance and my mother said " I didn't know you want me to help out.. I just though to let you do on your own" I looked at them... and say:

Oh do it on my own? How the hell am I gonna correct myself without anyone helping me out by correct the pronouncations and the symblls.. (I'm too tired to correct spell) I was up at 4 am. Drove from my home to boston 3 half hrs, and back 3 half hours again... and picking up kids etc. I'm on my bed with my cellphone typing this up
I'm off to bed after the biggest loser is finish :-D


Example... when I want to say favor.. I prnounce flavor... when I say fever.. I say flever.. Kayla said no it sound you said flavor or favor so try drop out l. I'm like geez my 13 yrs old. But I always *thank her* for correcting me... I also learned when I said badge... it souns I said beige! I'm like eeeeewww that's tuff but I don't give up ....


Nite all,
Wendy

EXACTLY

That's what I tried to repeat my posts many times that CI or HA itself can't correct you and develop your skills but your parents. Without parental's support, you would know nothing... You can't do anything by your own and know either it's correct or not... You need anyone's support to correct your speech and hear sounds, also language skill as well.

It's wonderful to know that your daughter correct you and help you to hear the sound and speech...

I disagree that CI or HA itself help anyone to improve language skill but the people themselves who have strong and good willing and also parent's support as well.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Liebling, that's not what it is about.
The whole point is about CI- that if you want the best benefits from it you should implant before the three years of age, for the reason Cloggy showed you in the graph.


Fuzzy

I responsed Cloggy...

Let me to share an example:
Your daughter and other child have same level of hearing loss and have CI at early age. Your daughter's learning development skill is quickly than other child. How? Can you explain me why your daughter and other child are different? Where it come from?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

yes I read that article, but how do I know this is too is not yet another sloppy finding???
how do I know if Dr. Ioannidis was indeed himself such careful and correct in his research?
certain margin for errors is indeed unavoidable in such researches, for reason explained in the article but on the whole we have rules and regulations that we go by which more or less can be trusted.

the graph that Cloggy posted is different in this aspect that it is IMO rather hard to falsify the stats when there is not that many implanted people yet, both children and adults,
that is why I rather feel it can be trusted.


Fuzzy

Because some people depend on books and professional over real life situtations.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Because some people depend on books and professional over real life situtations.

Are you saying these children from the graph, implanted with CI, who participated in the study were not real life situation? not real children?

Fuzzy

ps are you saying professionals have no real patients?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

As I've said- I am only stating facts about CI - how do you know what would happen if you could wear it everyday? that has nothing to do with your unfortunate symptoms, or family.

The facts is not always correct.

That have completely NOTHING to do with what I wrote. I was writing about human speech and language development, not you.

Do I understand correct that you beleive that CI is the one who develop human's speech and language, not people themselves?

It doesn't matter what situation - it is always the attitude and communication skills that play the role in relationship. If my son was sure this is what he needs and decided to change his gender, I would respect it.

*scratch my head* -

You support parent's decision on CI surgery for their children but you said different here... You said that you respect if your son decided to change his gender...

It is not his daughter's fault that HA does not work, but it's not the HA fault either. But it is his daughter's hearing loss that cause HA to NOT work.

Exactly

This is just the matter of English.
When I reffer to Puyo, a human, I use the word "problem", because obviously it's not his fault that his CI is causing these symptoms.
But at the same time, it's not CI's fault either. Other people use CI with no problems that Puyo have. So, if CI does not cause other people numbness in the nose and mouth, and headaches, then perhaps it's Puyo's problem, not CI. that of course does not mean it's Puyo's fault that it is like that.

Then, when I am talking about a CAR - it's obvious that whoever causes a car accident is at FAULT. (unless of course the car suddenly broke)
That doesn't mean just because Puyo "caused" a car accident, he also "caused CI accident".
I was just trying to demonstrate by this example that maybe it's not the problem with *whatever* but with the person. Hope you get it.

just the language matter.

Ahh I got it.

I am sorry, but what are you talking about? I am talking about people who had NO USE for HA, but can now hear with CI.

I am sorry that you still can't get it and can't convince it.

CI is more advanced technologically than HA, period. It has nothing to do with parent's support and willingness to work.

Disagree and would suggest you to RE-READ WHarley's post. Without parental or family's support, CI or HA users know nothing... what kind of noise/sound is about... they don't know either their speech is correct or not... ????

I know from see many HA and CI users in real life... It's not CI and HA itself

CI and HA only help if the people are willing to learn anything with their development skill.

I know that CI is better techology but really depend on people's physical body and mind either it work on them or not.

If the boys are HEARING - no they rather don't miss because of the parents deafness. unless they are not exposed to any sound.
If the boys are born deaf- then even if the parents are hearing - yes they do miss hearing sounds thus learning to recognize them.

Don't confuse two things: language development and ability to hear and speak.

I can see that you has a little knowledge.

Many hearing children of deaf parents have their delay with their speech development until they start their first kindergarten and catch it real fast.

My both children grow up at deaf world more than hearing world. Sign language are their first language.

I accept that my both boys are hearing and want them to join hearing world, that's why CPS send my boys to child minder with their cost to develop their speech skill until they went their first kindergarten when they were 3 years old.

because they COULD HEAR. it only matters when the child is born deaf, not when the parents are deaf.

Can hear what? Just can hear?

It IS frustrating, isn't it.
I don't get it either. Here we have a proof and an EASY, clear explanation like a graph right in our faces, and yet it seem like some people are blind to it. Why is that is beyond me.

Yes I read and wait for Cloggy to answer my question.

I also don't understand why nobody is getting the clue from this:

I do not understand why nobody accept CI and HA users's experience in real life and depend on studies, professionals, books, etc. instead of both sides.

The most intensive period of speech and language development for humans is during the first three years of life, a period when the brain is developing and maturing. These skills appear to develop best in a world that is rich with sounds, sights, and consistent exposure to the speech and language of others.


There is increasing evidence suggesting that there are "critical periods" for speech and language development in infants and young children.

The ability to learn a language will be more difficult, and perhaps less efficient or effective, if these critical periods are allowed to pass without early exposure to a language.

Exactly, it's parents who feed the language and speech skill to their children with the help from HA or CI, not HA or CI itself.

What more is needed to understand why these graphs show clearly why the best CI results show youngest children?
and what more than this and graph together is needed to explain why early implantation matters so much?

Yes I have seen but I rather to collect the both sides... I questioned Cloggy and wait for his reply.

 

[R2D2]

*have a cup of Ginger tea and reading the whole posts since my last post of yesterday*

I must say that I am total surprised that flip's question with article are being ignored or skip.

Re-read flip's question and article, then share your view on flip's article with us please.

http://www.alldeaf.com/839423-post299.html

flip, I am not surprised after read the article, you provided.

I don't know what can be said about this - Flip's article made a general observation about science studies which may or may not apply to any of the studies that people have cited here. I wouldn't disagree really, especially if you are looking at just one study by itself and making an argument on it.

However, having said that, when you have had studies that have been repeated and repeated by many different academic institutions in different parts of the world and which are coming to the same conclusions, I think you can start to say, that something interesting seems to be happening here. There is now quite a cohort studies that has found that early implantation makes a difference in terms of benefit with a CI.

I think that if you took the article too extremely, then you would have to adopt the same stance for all other scientific papers to be consistent. What would be the point of doing research to further our knowledge when it's probably tainted anyway? In an extreme example, someone could dismiss advice not to smoke because the studies that show a corelation between smoking and cancer are probably tainted.

As long as people are aware of limitations that studies can have, then what is the harm in it?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Are you saying these children from the graph, implanted with CI, who participated in the study were not real life situation? not real children?

Fuzzy

ps are you saying professionals have no real patients?

Come on... You know an exactly what I am talking about.

Don't twist my word please.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Audiofuzzy doesnt have a CI.

It is the same question I have in my head..why does it work for some of my students while it doesnt work for others.

Yes I know.

It really depend on people why does it work on them or not like what you mentioned at other post that you and your brother have same level hearing loss... HA does work for you but not him. It really depend on them, not CI or HA itself who develop your skills.

I know the people who have same hearing loss level but their speech skill are better than others and other's language skill are better than them...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

You were being unreasonable when you asked if Shel90 to find out why those CIs failed. Shel is not kidding when she says she'd have to drive to those CI centers; you ever try to call an automated system via relay? I tell you trying to call an automated system via relay is a nightmare. Others would really have to go out of their way to make calls on Shel's behalf.Shel's main job making sure her kids learn to read and write; it is hoped the parents have given the kids the most important tool of all: a strong first language.

As for your wife being a teacher and all great and I'm glad you were able to raise a fine daughter and I do think you did an excellent job.

As for being a teacher, I think Shel answered that better than I ever could.

 

[R2D2]

After reading Cdmeggars posts, I have a question for those who believe that a decision about a CI should only be made as an adult.

What if the deafness was due to meningitis? As you may or may not know in some meningitis cases, ossification of the cochlea can occur within a short period of time, which means that inserting CI electrodes is very difficult and sometimes not possible.

Should such children lose the opportunity to have a CI for a symbolic "choice" that can only be made in adulthood?

Just wondering whether people would make an exception for such cases where if the decision is delayed, there is no choice at all?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I seem to remember Puyo describing his auditory history once and when I read what he had said, I recall being unsurprised that he hadn't done well with the CI. I'm not sure if I remember this correctly but he said that even though he was born deaf, he didn't get hearing aids until he was 5 years old. can you correct me on this Puyo?

I have a friend who also didn't have his hearing stimulated until a late age and he got headaches too when he got a CI. In his case, the brain couldn't cope with the sound input because the neurons for hearing hadn't developed properly at a young age. He turned it off after one year.

Which is why essentially, such people with minimally stimulated hearing don't really have a choice to get CIs as adults as they are going to get pretty poor results generally.

Yes, that's right.

Some adults have the similar problem as Puyo when they denied to wear HA at early age or wear HA later than babies, that's why CI are not right for them.

CI or HA work great on some adults because of their strong willing on work hard to develop speech and hear sounds.

I personally beleive that CI is better for the children over adult only if they really want it..

 

[Liebling:-)))]

There aren't many audis or ENTs that have a CI either. Yet you trust their knowledge.

Exactly because they don't have CI!!!! I really don't understand why anyone depend on hearing professional and books over real life situations who experienced as CI and HA users.

I would accept both sides before I made decision when I were them. It about open mind.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Well, the article is obviously based on a hearing human being not the deaf one.
And in this case the development means hearing and speech, not sign language or other means of communication.
Altough the same priniciple could be applied to the non -audio-verbal development.

What matters most is, whatever the means of communication the crucial steps of development happen before the age of THREE, and past that age further development is delayed or not possible anymore.


If the child at this critical stage of development is not able to HEAR, and thus imitate the sounds it hear, then it will not develop these skills
and if some development does will take place at the later age these skills will be inferior compared to what they could be if developed in the first three years of life,
while the BRAIN IS MATURING = STILL MAKING NEURAL CONNECTIONS.

BTW, this mean both hearing and deaf child will develop similar way - except the hearing child will learn to recognize sounds and learn to speak whereas the deaf child will be the developing and perfecting sign and other visual language.

And as the hearing child will not know the sign language such the deaf child will not know sound and speech.
(let's not confuse the matter with HAs and Cis right now)

And while the hearing child will learn to sign realtively easy and quickly the deaf child will have much harder time with learning to recognize sounds and develop speech. it's probably because sign language is an visual language, and neither has visual impairment.

also, it's my observation that the hearing person is able to learn 100% sign language at virtually any time, whereas the deaf person is unable to hear certain sounds for ever.


Fuzzy

Simple question

Who feed hearing and deaf children (with CI or HA) to develop with those skills, you mentioned here?

Again, did you know what Literacy is?

Did you know that million hearing people have the problem to reading and writing skill? What is that? Can you explain where it come from when they don't have HA or CI?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Liebling, that's not what it is about.
The whole point is about CI- that if you want the best benefits from it you should implant before the three years of age, for the reason Cloggy showed you in the graph.


Fuzzy

You said in previous posts that CI is better to help the children with language skill which I disagree to because CI itself can't work/help when the human denied to learn anything.



Yes Cloggy showed me 4 pictures and I questioned him.

 

[R2D2]

Yes, that's right.

Some adults have the similar problem as Puyo when they denied to wear HA at early age or wear HA later than babies, that's why CI are not right for them.

CI or HA work great on some adults because of their strong willing on work hard to develop speech and hear sounds.

I personally beleive that CI is better for the children over adult only if they really want it..

Yes, I do think that deaf adults should be implanted with care and depending on how well they've already develop speech and lipreading skills. I think that those who are likely to only get limited benefit should receive extensive counselling beforehand, so that they are aware of this likely limited outcome.

I think my friend was aware that it probably wouldn't work for him but he wanted to try before he died, if you know what I mean. Curiosity is a strong motivator.

 

[shel90]

"some people" meaning me right?
how many times do I have to explain to you I didn't object to your unability to STATE the reasons why some children lack CI benefits.
I objected to the BIASED WAY you did that in some posts. meaning in some posts you didn't just "state" the information, you did it in in certain light that implied the CI is just one big c*ap while in these particular discussion it was most important to be objective and unbiased. that was my beef with you, nothing else.
as for:



it would require a lot of information both medical and psychological to find out why.
The same thing happened with me and my brother. But I know why my brother was unable to receive as much benefit from HA as me- because I was 100% immersed in hearing world and my hearing loss was slower, a LOT slower than his. Was your brother's upbringing exactly the same as yours? anyway, how would you know - even subtle differences could mean a lot.
was he as dedicated to use hearing and speech as you? does he has exactly the same type of hearing loss as you?
even IQ can make a difference in such matters.




But there IS an explanation, it just have to be found.
it could be that these children have type of hearing loss that after all is not suitable for CI. most likely they do not receive as much therapy and exercises as they should despite what the parents say.. could be their CI is not as well programmed as it should be according to their needs.
could be the children themselves psychologically reject the CI and their hearing is set to "selective". could be hundred other things.
and finally, what age the kids were implanted? Cloggy's graph shows clearly how much age matters. more than anything else. that alone could be an explanation for failure.

I am saying just because nobody knows doesn't mean "CI just don't work" - there must be a reason, and of course NO it's not your responsibility to find out why, I never said it is.


I will continue later on. sorry for the mistakes, too, I have no time for correction. hope you'll get the gist of it anyway.

Fuzzy

I was speaking of other members.

Right, I know that there are reasons for why they werent get benefits from their CIs but I cant make assumptions since I wasnt there when they got implanted or what happened afterwards. I have asked and asked but get vague answers so I cant keep on dwelling about it cuz I have to worry about making sure my lessons are meeting their needs.

 

[shel90]

Well, the article is obviously based on a hearing human being not the deaf one.
And in this case the development means hearing and speech, not sign language or other means of communication.
Altough the same priniciple could be applied to the non -audio-verbal development.

What matters most is, whatever the means of communication the crucial steps of development happen before the age of THREE, and past that age further development is delayed or not possible anymore.


If the child at this critical stage of development is not able to HEAR, and thus imitate the sounds it hear, then it will not develop these skills
and if some development does will take place at the later age these skills will be inferior compared to what they could be if developed in the first three years of life,
while the BRAIN IS MATURING = STILL MAKING NEURAL CONNECTIONS.

BTW, this mean both hearing and deaf child will develop similar way - except the hearing child will learn to recognize sounds and learn to speak whereas the deaf child will be the developing and perfecting sign and other visual language.

And as the hearing child will not know the sign language such the deaf child will not know sound and speech.
(let's not confuse the matter with HAs and Cis right now)

And while the hearing child will learn to sign realtively easy and quickly the deaf child will have much harder time with learning to recognize sounds and develop speech. it's probably because sign language is an visual language, and neither has visual impairment.

also, it's my observation that the hearing person is able to learn 100% sign language at virtually any time, whereas the deaf person is unable to hear certain sounds for ever.


Fuzzy

That's because hearing people already have a strong L1 language foundation making learning ASL easier. Imagine if they had no language at an older age? That is what happens to many deaf children when they are deprived of a full access to language and then later being exposed to ASL. Their ASL is not the same as the ones who have been exposed to it since birth. When it comes to reading and writing, the gap is even larger.
We cant allow that to keep happening but yet it still is. *sighs*

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I know some people don't beleive that HA users, I withnessed in my real life can speak like HOH/hearing and can talk on the phone...

See yourself that I am not only one who said this...

http://www.alldeaf.com/556123-post18.html

 

[highlands]

I know some people don't beleive that HA users, I withnessed in my real life can speak like HOH/hearing and can talk on the phone...

See yourself that I am not only one who said this...

http://www.alldeaf.com/556123-post18.html

yes, but, as a hearing aid user I am unable to keep talking well on the phone cuz I've profound hearing loss.. hearing aids are not very helpful with speech understanding to me

 

[WBHarley]

EXACTLY

That's what I tried to repeat my posts many times that CI or HA itself can't correct you and develop your skills but your parents. Without parental's support, you would know nothing... You can't do anything by your own and know either it's correct or not... You need anyone's support to correct your speech and hear sounds, also language skill as well.

It's wonderful to know that your daughter correct you and help you to hear the sound and speech...

I disagree that CI or HA itself help anyone to improve language skill but the people themselves who have strong and good willing and also parent's support as well.

Liebling:
I am at my friend's house, using her computer..

Im sorry if you misunderstood me... What I was trying to say for examples etc...

MY own 13 yrs old daughter shouldnt be my teacher or speech therapist..
My husband and my mom could have helped me out
BUT I had speech therapy when I was young with HA... These DID NOT BENEFIT HELP ME to hear the words better and clearly, they didn't explained me how to pronounce it or to correct it etc...

Now, I got CI in my Left ear.. I pick up many words without looking at anyone's lip I can hear words but No one correct my own words! I have been hearing lots of rhymes, or a words that look alike but pronounce almost the same...

so I insulted back to my family (not my kids) that they didnt do for last 6 years with me till Last year my daughter correct me *about 1 year ago* the more I learn and pronounce it myself, and when I read books with my little son I learn to hear my sounds when I talk to everett and kayla would tell me i did good or my husband too.. I do appericate that they did helped me

I am ALMOST 40 years old! next month.... But my brain level is just like a 2 or 3 years old child with hearing words! so I will have to write down words on what I hear without looking etc... (that's my guess on age's level for words concept knowing without looking or reading)

For anyone in this Alldeaf--
Im saying that.. CI do benefit for many children if they done in early ages... not at Later ages... HEY i said Many children i didnt said ALL children so Some of them may not success.. It's like Fuzzy says

it could be that these children have type of hearing loss that after all is not suitable for CI. most likely they do not receive as much therapy and exercises as they should despite what the parents say.. could be their CI is not as well programmed as it should be according to their needs.
could be the children themselves psychologically reject the CI and their hearing is set to "selective". could be hundred other things.
and finally, what age the kids were implanted? Cloggy's graph shows clearly how much age matters. more than anything else. that alone could be an explanation for failure.

to anybody in AD--
Someone asked me the risk of doing another ear, if I done another ear surgery, in about 10 or 20 years later there's new technology come out but may not work for me anymore cuz I got implanted in both ear(IF that happen), then I told him, Look, I will be 40 next month, I dont even want to wait any longer for another 10 or 20 years because I will be too old to LEARN allover again.. I would rather get it done now, If it failed on my right ear, then i accept the risk, but if it work, I will be happy to work along with my children, and my family...

My family support me to get ANOTHER CI on my right ear.. that's why I went for the evaluations yesterday!

Wendy