Designing A Hearing Baby

[jillio]

Still, him choosing a CI now has a completely different outcome compared to you doing it for him when he was little.
So, in that respect, his options or outcome are not as good as the could have been.
You had a real choice and you choose for him deaf without hearing. (Which worked out fine.)

Yes, it did work out fine. And, as those outcomes havew been jsut fine, and he is functionign on a level that allows him to live a complete and fulfilling life, he does not see that hearing could add to the level of satisfaction and accomplishment that he is able to achieve. Its all a matter of persepctive. Some feel the need to constantly seek that which they perceive as absent fromtheir lives, and some don't see that anything is missing.

 

[jillio]

Well well Jill, hope you feel a lot better now, analyzing someone that you do not now, never have met...
It's a behaviour that you have every time someone comes with good arguments.

Because, your choice has made your som what he is today. The connection with Deaf community, ASL, etc.. all comes forth from your choice.
And in that sense, it is indoctrination.
The same with us and Lotte. Our choices have made it possible for her to hear, and with it comes a love and dependence on hearing. In a sense that is also indoctrination.
Same with a child growing up in a christian family. It will be taught the christian "rules" and that willl be its security blanket, due to indoctrination. But the same child, growing up in an islamic family will love the rules of islam. Same thing - indoctrination.

Only later in life, real choices can be made. A choice to find out about islam for the child growing up under christianity, and reverse. But also the deaf child that grew up with CI. It might want to investigate on deafness. Same for the deaf child that grew up without sound.. it might want to investigate on sound.

Now, continuosly, people that heared before have been able to adjust and embrace deafness. (e.g. King)... only recent people that never heared have had the possibility to e able to hear.. the results are still not in..
Both adjustments are difficult....
And they are difficult, because their lives were set out by their parents.

Now, be a good girl, and apologize to Audiofuzzy

Actually, cloggy, my choice has not made my son what he is today. My decisions have allowed him to become what he is today. I provided the opportunity only. He made the most of it. I don't presume to be so omnipotent that I "made" my son into anything. I simply provided the opportunity, and I supported, guided, and loved him along the way. It is a journey we took together, and a sharing of both experience and perspective.

And granted, everyone is shaped by past experience. And that is why it is so important for us to listen to the experiences of the deaf adults who have gone before. They have much that we can learn from, and much that can benefit the deaf children today.

Indoctination would imply that I raised my son in such a way that I limited his experiences to those that represented my own view, and did not provide him with suffiecient opportunity to see other points of view in order that he be able to make a reasonable decision for himself. That is hardly the case. My son was exposed to both the hearing world and the deaf world. He was exposed to both English and ASL. He was exposed to both the mainstream and the deaf school placement. He was exposed to hearing signers, to hearing who didn't sign, to Deaf that relied on ASL as primary communication, to deaf that combined speech and sign, to peers who were hearing, to peers that were deaf with CI, to peers who were deaf without CI, to peers who used HA, to peers who used no amplification, and to deaf with various other disabilities. That, cloggy, by no definition, can be considered indoctrination. To insure that a child has that diverse an experience is to provide a wider world view.

And, in closing, I feel no need to apologize for speaking the truth.

 

[jillio]

Still, him choosing a CI now has a completely different outcome compared to you doing it for him when he was little.
So, in that respect, his options or outcome are not as good as the could have been.
You had a real choice and you choose for him deaf without hearing. (Which worked out fine.)

No matter what the outcome or possibilites are at this point in time, the point is that he feels no need to undergo a surgical procedure to medicate his deafness. He is accomplishing everything that a hearing person of the same age could be expected to accomplish. His decision is not based on outcome now, or at any point prior. His decision is based on the fact that he does not see his deafness as an obstacle to doing anything he chooses to do. In short, he does not see that he is disabled by his deafness. And if he does not see his deafness as a disability that limits his ability to function, there is no need to undergo a surgical procedure to increase his ability to function.

 

[jillio]

You know, cloggy, you seem to be fond of comparisons, so I'm going to offer you one. I had a professor who is blind. He achieved his Ph.D., he was head of his department, he traveled, he raised a family, he went where he wanted when he wanted without limitation, he taught. In short, he accomplished much more with his life than many, many sighted people do. How would sight have improved his life? How would sight have added to the many accomplishments he achieved in his life? How would sight have increased his ability to do all that he did?

Quite franklly, this professor did not view his blindness as a disability or an obstacle in his life. It simply was the way that it was. He did not spend a minute of his time worrying about what could be done to give him sight. He simply lived his life to the fullest. His blindness was not an issue to him, it was simply a part of the life he lived. If my son can follow in this man's footsteps, I will be well pleased. This man's blindness was only viewed as a disability by the sighted.....and the sighted who had any association with him at all soon adopted his attitude and ceased to see him as disabled, or even as blind, but simply as the remarkable man he is who also just happened to be blind. This is a goal I wish for my own child as a deaf man. I don't see that providing him with a CI and some degree of hearing that he does not have as the greatest gift I could give him. I see the greatest gift I can give him is providing him with the experience and the opportunity to know men such as the professor of whom I have just spoken, and to provide himt he opportunity to achieve the level of self acceptance and motivation to achieve that this professor demonstrates. That is the gift I strive to give my son, and it has nothing to do with hearing or not hearing.

 

[shel90]

No matter what the outcome or possibilites are at this point in time, the point is that he feels no need to undergo a surgical procedure to medicate his deafness. He is accomplishing everything that a hearing person of the same age could be expected to accomplish. His decision is not based on outcome now, or at any point prior. His decision is based on the fact that he does not see his deafness as an obstacle to doing anything he chooses to do. In short, he does not see that he is disabled by his deafness. And if he does not see his deafness as a disability that limits his ability to function, there is no need to undergo a surgical procedure to increase his ability to function.

I am so happy that I no longer see my deafness as an obstacle like I did growing up. The reason I felt that way cuz there was tooo much focus on my ears rather than what was between my ears. Now, I am living the way your son is in regards to deafness and not needing a CI.

My brother and so many of my deaf friends who grew up in both worlds dont feel the need to fix their deafness. Some people dont feel that way and get CIs as adults and are happier. The point is putting too much focus on deaf children's ability to hear, ability to speak well, and speech rather than on the child as a whole can really distort some children and adults' way of thinking.

 

[shel90]

You know, cloggy, you seem to be fond of comparisons, so I'm going to offer you one. I had a professor who is blind. He achieved his Ph.D., he was head of his department, he traveled, he raised a family, he went where he wanted when he wanted without limitation, he taught. In short, he accomplished much more with his life than many, many sighted people do. How would sight have improved his life? How would sight have added to the many accomplishments he achieved in his life? How would sight have increased his ability to do all that he did?

Quite franklly, this professor did not view his blindness as a disability or an obstacle in his life. It simply was the way that it was. He did not spend a minute of his time worrying about what could be done to give him sight. He simply lived his life to the fullest. His blindness was not an issue to him, it was simply a part of the life he lived. If my son can follow in this man's footsteps, I will be well pleased. This man's blindness was only viewed as a disability by the sighted.....and the sighted who had any association with him at all soon adopted his attitude and ceased to see him as disabled, or even as blind, but simply as the remarkable man he is who also just happened to be blind. This is a goal I wish for my own child as a deaf man. I don't see that providing him with a CI and some degree of hearing that he does not have as the greatest gift I could give him. I see the greatest gift I can give him is providing him with the experience and the opportunity to know men such as the professor of whom I have just spoken, and to provide himt he opportunity to achieve the level of self acceptance and motivation to achieve that this professor demonstrates. That is the gift I strive to give my son, and it has nothing to do with hearing or not hearing.

I wish I had the same gift given to me. Could have saved me a lot of heartache growing up.

 

[jillio]

I wish I had the same gift given to me. Could have saved me a lot of heartache growing up.

Awwww.....

 

[jillio]

I am so happy that I no longer see my deafness as an obstacle like I did growing up. The reason I felt that way cuz there was tooo much focus on my ears rather than what was between my ears. Now, I am living the way your son is in regards to deafness and not needing a CI.

My brother and so many of my deaf friends who grew up in both worlds dont feel the need to fix their deafness. Some people dont feel that way and get CIs as adults and are happier. The point is putting too much focus on deaf children's ability to hear, ability to speak well, and speech rather than on the child as a whole can really distort some children and adults' way of thinking.

Thank you,shel. We need to stop docusing on the deafness and start focusing on the child as a whole and complete human being with a world of opportunity in front of them that is not dependent on their hearing status.

 

[Maria]

Thank you,shel. We need to stop docusing on the deafness and start focusing on the child as a whole and complete human being with a world of opportunity in front of them that is not dependent on their hearing status.

I agree. It matters than anythin' else.

 

[Maria]

I am so happy that I no longer see my deafness as an obstacle like I did growing up. The reason I felt that way cuz there was tooo much focus on my ears rather than what was between my ears. Now, I am living the way your son is in regards to deafness and not needing a CI.

My brother and so many of my deaf friends who grew up in both worlds dont feel the need to fix their deafness. Some people dont feel that way and get CIs as adults and are happier. The point is putting too much focus on deaf children's ability to hear, ability to speak well, and speech rather than on the child as a whole can really distort some children and adults' way of thinking.

I don't feel the need to fix my deafness, either. I am just the way I am and accept the way it is. I don't feel any disappointment if, not at all. It doesn't even bother me, really - I mean, just be natural as is. It's natural thing that gives me for bein' me. I am just me.

I am wonderin' IF, parents want to decide to have a baby implanted with CI - will the baby's view/thinkin'/etc., etc. be different rather than bein' his/her own natural deafness' way of thinkin', view and all when he/or she grows up ?

 

[jillio]

I don't feel the need to fix my deafness, either. I am just the way I am and accept the way it is. I don't feel any disappointment if, not at all. It doesn't even bother me, really - I mean, just be natural as is. It's natural thing that gives me for bein' me. I am just me.

I am wonderin' IF, parents want to decide to have a baby implanted with CI - will the baby's view/thinkin'/etc., etc. be different rather than bein' his/her own natural deafness' way of thinkin', view and all when he/or she grows up ?

I think the sort answer to that would be "yes". But it can be changed if that child is put in a stiuation where they are permitted to see their deafness in a different light.

 

[Cloggy]

Actually, cloggy, my choice has not made my son what he is today. My decisions have allowed him to become what he is today. I provided the opportunity only.

Of course it was due to your choice. As a child he had no say in the matter. You decided. You were on the wheel. As a child, he followed, and by the time he was old enough, he continued...
HAd you chose something else, he would have grown up differently.
And I am not saying better or worse. But differently!

What's your problem with "not me, he did it".... sounds like you do not want to take responsibility for the choice YOU made for him..

...............Indoctination would imply that I raised my son in such a way that I limited his experiences to those that represented my own view, and did not provide him with suffiecient opportunity to see other points of view in order that he be able to make a reasonable decision for himself. ..........

Exactly... by choosing he should grow up deaf, you made the decision he would not hear. By choosing my daughter would grow up hearing, I withhold her the experience of not being able to hear.
You raise your child to be a christian, you take away the opportunity to experience islam.
The choices we make, "design" the child. And that's indoctrination.
Not the destructive harmful definition you have, but that's still what it is.

Indoctrination is how we grow up.

 

[Cloggy]

You know, cloggy, you seem to be fond of comparisons, so I'm going to offer you one. I had a professor who is blind. He achieved his Ph.D., ........

Beautiful story...
Is he the average blind person.... exactly!

Your son..... is he the average deaf person.... exacly!

Do you have any research regarding Deaf community and their lives.... and is that comparable to your son.... Exactly...

 

[jillio]

Of course it wqas your choice. As a child he had no say in the matter.
You decided. You were on the wheel. As a child, he followed, and by the time he was old enough, he continued...

Oh, but he did have a say in the matter. His frustration at trying to communicate orally, and the way he blossomed and became a happy child with the addition of sign language told me everything I needed to know. And the fact that he is so well adjusted with his deafness, and has found no need to be implanted tells me everything. Now, if he felt that he was missing something in his life by not hearing, I would certainly worry about the decisions I made. If he was uncomfortable with his deafness, and had to focus on oral communication just to communicate with his family, I would certainly question not only my decisions, but the very negative message I must have given him growing up.
What's your problem with "he did it".... sounds like you do not want to take responsibility for the choice YOU made for him..

No, it has nothing to do with not wanting to take responsibility for the decisions I made. I simply do not feel the need to take responsibility for my son's accomplishments. He has worked hard to get where he is and he deserves the credit.Exactly... by choosing he should grow up deaf, you made the decision he would not hear. By choosing my daughter would grow up hearing, I withhold her the experience of not being able to hear.
You raise your child to be a christian, you take away the opportunity to experience islam.
The choices we make, "design" the child. And that's indoctrination.
Not the destructive harmful definition you have, but that's still what it is.

Some choices we make design the child. When we limit the coices available to that child by restricting their environment to only one point of view, it is indeed an attempt to design our child into a miniature version of ourselves. However, when we expose our children to that which may be different from ourselves, we participate in the development of a complete and free thinking individual that is unique in his or her own right. And we have instilled a very important value that is reflected in the way they perceive and treat others who may be different from themselves. The most important thing that we give our children in such an environemt is unshakable self esteem and confidence.Indoctrination is how we grow up.

Some parents indoctinate....others teach and guide.

 

[rick48]

Beautiful story...
Is he the average blind person.... exactly!

Your son..... is he the average deaf person.... exacly!

Do you have any research regarding Deaf community and their lives.... and is that comparable to your son.... Exactly...

Good point as usual Cloggy.

Also, while a good story its a lousy comparision. The man is blind and there is nothing that can give him sight, so he has no options.

Lotte is deaf but there is something that can allow her to hear and you and your wife have given her that and now she has more options available to her, and that is the important point, to her, that she did not have before.
Rick

 

[rick48]

"Oh, but he did have a say in the matter. His frustration at trying to communicate orally, and the way he blossomed and became a happy child with the addition of sign language told me everything I needed to know. And the fact that he is so well adjusted with his deafness, and has found no need to be implanted tells me everything."

Its funny as always you have one set of standards for you but another for everyone else.

You observed your son's frustrations and added sign language and you pat yourself on the back for being attentive to his needs but Cloggy, Jackie, myself and others tell you that the choices we made for our children were also as a result of observing our children's needs and you critize us for doing exactly what you did.

It all goes back to your basic insecurity to accept that fact that each child is a unique individual and that there is no one right way to raise any child, even a deaf one.

You can throw around all the cliches you want and tell us for the umpteenth thousand time how much experience you have and whatever degrees you have but the bottomline is, you do not know Lotte as well as Cloggy, likewise the same for my child or Jackie's children.

You just cannot accept the fact that there are kids with cochlear implants who are out there doing well in school, actively involved in their families and communities and living their lives to their fullest. Why that bothers you, says more about you then all your degrees and alleged "experience".

Face it, cochlear implants are here to stay and you had better get used to them because these kids will be the face of the deaf community for years to come.

 

[jillio]

"Oh, but he did have a say in the matter. His frustration at trying to communicate orally, and the way he blossomed and became a happy child with the addition of sign language told me everything I needed to know. And the fact that he is so well adjusted with his deafness, and has found no need to be implanted tells me everything."

Its funny as always you have one set of standards for you but another for everyone else.

You observed your son's frustrations and added sign language and you pat yourself on the back for being attentive to his needs but Cloggy, Jackie, myself and others tell you that the choices we made for our children were also as a result of observing our children's needs and you critize us for doing exactly what you did.

Ahhh.but you don't seem to see the difference between implantation and sign language. One addresses the need from the hearing viewpoint of the parent, and the other from the loinguistic need and viewpoint of the child. One is child directed and one is parent directed. But I don't expect you to understand the difference. You have already shown that you are incapable of doing so. You will find many more deaf adults who say "I wish my parents had exposed me tosign language as a child" than you will find deaf adults who say "I wish my parents had implanted me as a child." Youdid not even come close to doing what I did, and your lack of skill in sign language is evidence that you doid not expose your child to everything available
It all goes back to your basic insecurity to accept that fact that each child is a unique individual and that there is no one right way to raise any child, even a deaf one.
I'm not insecure in the least. You are the one that continues to argue with every post I make in order to attempt to discredit me. I do believe, from a clinical standpoint, you are the one with the overdeveloped defense mechanisms resulting from the insecurity you feel.

You can throw around all the cliches you want and tell us for the umpteenth thousand time how much experience you have and whatever degrees you have but the bottomline is, you do not know Lotte as well as Cloggy, likewise the same for my child or Jackie's children.

I didn't mention my degrees or my experience. Why do you feel the need to continually refer to such? Are you threatened? BTW, are you going to answer the questions posed about the discipline under which you ahve studied research methodology and statistics? And in case you haven't noticed lately, jackie and I have been in agreement regarding several points. Better recruit someone else.

You just cannot accept the fact that there are kids with cochlear implants who are out there doing well in school, actively involved in their families and communities and living their lives to their fullest. Why that bothers you, says more about you then all your degrees and alleged "experience".

I di not say that there weren't kids who appear to be living successfully with cochlear implants and living life to the fullest. What I have said is that doing so is not dependent upon hearing status.

Face it, cochlear implants are here to stay and you had better get used to them because these kids will be the face of the deaf community for years to come.

I'm already used to cochlear implants. You appear to be unable to grasp the fact that I deal with students daily who have CI. Many of my son's friends have CI. I am aquainted with several adults who have chosen to be implanted. Once again, rick, CI is not the issue. Only those who subscribe to your audist view keep bringing it back to implantation. Go ahead and implant your child if that is what you feel is necessary. But, and this is the but that you don't seem to get, also expose them to all else that can prove to be beneficial to them from a holistic view. Why is it that all you cn see in a deaf child is the inability to hear? Why is your major goal oral language? Because it is your way? Is that what makes it best? Becasue you are hearing, your deaf child must adjust to your way, rather than the other way around?

 

[jillio]

Good point as usual Cloggy.

Also, while a good story its a lousy comparision. The man is blind and there is nothing that can give him sight, so he has no options.

Lotte is deaf but there is something that can allow her to hear and you and your wife have given her that and now she has more options available to her, and that is the important point, to her, that she did not have before.
Rick

You miss the obvious rick, but I would expect that from one who sees no other options for the deaf but to adjust themselves tothe hearing point of view. The professor of which I speak has many other options. He could have taken the view of himself as disabled, and allowed it to interfere with his drive for success. He couldhave taken the medicalized view that the sighted have of blind....he is a a defective sighted person rather than a whole blind person. He could choose to see himself as "visually impaired" rather than blind. He could refuse to accept his blindness as simply a part of
who he is.

And how is it that you know that there is not a procedure that can restore a semblance of sight to this man? Are you now a physician? Do you have his medical history? Are you privy to the etiology of his blindness? I think not. Therefore, you are not in a postition to make this sort of assessment.
The pont is, you see him as a blind man who happened to succeed. I see him as a very successful man who just happens to be blind. You define him by his blindness, I do not. Stop concentrating on what you believe is missing, and look at the person, rick. Why are you so threatened by those who have succeeded, most likely to a greater degree than have you with all of your sensory faculties, that also happen to have what you would consider to be a disabiltiy that they do not consider to be an obstacle and have not sought to mimic the majority?

Oh,and rick, instead hanging out waiting for a reply to appear in this thread for extended periods of time, why not use that time to browqse some other threads and actually learn what the deaf posters on this board are saying? Afraid of a little education?

 

[rick48]

And how is it that you know that there is not a procedure that can restore a semblance of sight to this man? ... Afraid of a little education?

Oh now there is an operation that restores sight to the blind, must be like the one you claim restores hearing to the deaf. They seem to be very medically advanced on your planet.

The course I took over 30 years ago in college, you want to know about...wait I think I still have the college catalogue somewhere....

Afraid of a little education, not at all, but I know I will not get one from you, hey still claiming that you never served as a note taker an interpreter.

 

[rick48]

"Ahhh.but you don't seem to see the difference between implantation and sign language. One addresses the need from the hearing viewpoint of the parent, and the other from the loinguistic need and viewpoint of the child."

You have so little understanding of what goes into the parental decision to give their child the benefits and opportunities associated with a cochlear implant that it is laughable. To think that parents elect to have surgery on their child to satisfy their needs is patently ridiculous and demonstrates how anti-ci you are.

You just do not get it but for many who elect the implant for their child it is because they understand the value that being able to hear and to speak can have on a person's life. The viewpoint is always from that of the child--what is in the best interests of the child. The fact that you cannot grasp that point does not detract from the intentions that motivate deaf and hearing parents alike to choose an implant for their child.


"Youdid not even come close to doing what I did, and your lack of skill in sign language is evidence that you doid not expose your child to everything available"

Sorry, but I know what we did for our child and it is truly sad that you view parenting as some sort of game or contest of one-up-manship. All I know is that our daughter is happy and living her life to her fullest potential, I am sorry that you are upset by that fact and feel threatened by a successful implanted child. But you should not for it is not a reflection on your parenting skills or lack thereof.