Designing A Hearing Baby

[shel90]

I understand what are you saying and how you feel, Shel.
I am for both CI and being oral (if possible) and ASL and deaf culture, but because I believe in early implantation and all I am called and audist and the likes, even worse. But I don't take it to heart beacause I understand some people mean well but lack information to truly know what this is all about. Many flat out don't get the gist of what am I saying.

I hope you, too don't take it personally.
Whatever our disagreements are, and I do accept the possibility of being mistaken about you - I think your stance on CI is clear - you are not against or pro, you are neutral, you realise the CI potential to be truly useful and you believe in personal choice on both parents and adults sides.
You were right to tell "back off and let the parents make their own choice". But you already know that

Fuzzy

Thanks..I used to be against them but now I have met kids who love them so how can I argue with that?

Yes, I also have met kids who hate theirs so it can go either way. I just stay neutral cuz I dont want to take sides...

I am not neutral when it comes to oral-only deaf ed for many reasons but that is another subject itself.

 

[jillio]

Only, sadly, you can't make heads or tails out of all this, and that's too bad.

look it's clear to me now - you feel threatened because of your own decision regarding implanting your child. Just because you CHOSE whatever you have chosed for your child, you need to convince YOURSELF in the first place that you made the right decision.
You simply feel threatened by any infomation that could cause you doubt your own choice.

Fuzzy

Sorry, sweetie, but its obvious that you don't have any clinical skills, either. I am not threatened by anything I have seen posted here. I have raised a successful, happy, well adjusted child who is able to function without a CI and to do so quite well. That speaks for itself. I don't doubt my choice in the least, and it is obvious that my son is satisfied with the choices I made as well. He hasn't opted to be implanted eventhough he could make that decision for himself at any point. He is quite comfortable with his deafness, and doesn't see it as anything that gets inthe way of him living a complete and satisfying life. You, one the other hand, obviously have quite a few issues with your deafness.

 

[jillio]

I understand what are you saying and how you feel, Shel.
I am for both CI and being oral (if possible) and ASL and deaf culture, but because I believe in early implantation and all I am called and audist and the likes, even worse. But I don't take it to heart beacause I understand some people mean well but lack information to truly know what this is all about. Many flat out don't get the gist of what am I saying.

I hope you, too don't take it personally.
Whatever our disagreements are, and I do accept the possibility of being mistaken about you - I think your stance on CI is clear - you are not against or pro, you are neutral, you realise the CI potential to be truly useful and you believe in personal choice on both parents and adults sides.
You were right to tell "back off and let the parents make their own choice". But you already know that

Fuzzy

I find it odd that you blatantly accused shel of being biased in her position, and not neutral in several prior posts, and now you claim that her neutrality is clear. In addition, you have earlier proposed that children not learn ASL until they are older because they can learn that language at any time, but the time for oral language skills passes within 3-5 years of age. You are vacillating. Exactly where do you stand, or do you even know where you stand?

 

[jillio]

Thanks..I used to be against them but now I have met kids who love them so how can I argue with that?

Yes, I also have met kids who hate theirs so it can go either way. I just stay neutral cuz I dont want to take sides...

I am not neutral when it comes to oral-only deaf ed for many reasons but that is another subject itself.

We are in agreement on all issues, shel. The only thing we oppose is an oral only environment for deaf children. That applies to CI implanted children and non-CI implanted children. Oral skills are a part of the whole picute, not the only thing in the picture.

 

[R2D2]

R2D2 said it right..."Cant please everyone at all times."

'Zackly!

 

[jillio]

'Zackly!

And its self defeating to try!

 

[Audiofuzzy]

I am not threatened by anything I have seen posted here. I have raised a successful, happy, well adjusted child who is able to function without a CI and to do so quite well. That speaks for itself. I don't doubt my choice in the least, and it is obvious that my son is satisfied with the choices I made as well.

Sorry hon. I am not buying this bull. Your son, yes he might be "happy" with your choice- like anyone indoctrinated. You, on the other hand have to reassure yourself that the choice you made for your son was right. like someone told about you already - you are transparent.

I find it odd that you blatantly accused shel of being biased in her position, and not neutral in several prior posts, and now you claim that her neutrality is clear. In addition, you have earlier proposed that children not learn ASL until they are older because they can learn that language at any time, but the time for oral language skills passes within 3-5 years of age. You are vacillating. Exactly where do you stand, or do you even know where you stand?

Hmmm.. just as I suspected - you are having trouble understanding plain English. I did not such things..... read my posts again, and maybe you will have lightbulb moment.

Fuzzy

 

[Angel]

Sorry hon. I am not buying this bull. Your son, yes he might be "happy" with your choice- like anyone indoctrinated. You, on the other hand have to reassure yourself that the choice you made for your son was right. like someone told about you already - you are transparent.

That's too bad if you are not buying this bull as you put it, you don't even know HER or HER son...

 

[Audiofuzzy]

That's too bad if you are not buying this bull as you put it, you don't even know HER or HER son...

Really? she doesn't know me either but that does not prevent her from insulting me every chance she gets. somehow, I don't see YOU jumping to my defence...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Sorry hon. I am not buying this bull. Your son, yes he might be "happy" with your choice- like anyone indoctrinated. You, on the other hand have to reassure yourself that the choice you made for your son was right. like someone told about you already - you are transparent.

Really? she doesn't know me either but that does not prevent her from insulting me every chance she gets. somehow, I don't see YOU jumping to my defence...

I see the problem is your attitude in many posts here, that's make the posters angry and offense.

You call Jillo transparent that's because you agree with someone. I would like to remind you that someone suggest you to check with therapy to find out how and where your attitude come from.

You claim that Jillo's son might be "happy" but it could be something wrong with you... It could be?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Got into a huge spat with my friends today cuz one of our friend's cousin just had a baby and the baby is deaf. The parents are thinking about getting a CI and my friends were telling this person to tell her cousin not to implant her baby and blah blah. I told them that it is none of their business and I got accused of being Anti-deaf culture...I never WIN! LOLOL!!!

I get accused of being anti-CI here and now I am being accused of being anti-Deaf culture. I had to laugh at the irony of it. My friend who has the cousin and I had a long talk after the spat. She agrees with me that it is nobody's business but her cousin's. Oh boyyyyyyyyyyiiiieeeeee!


I still stand by my opinion...to both hearing and deaf people. I am neutral just want ASL used as language development immediately rather than wait for the child to learn how to process the auditory input. That's what I told my friends but they are stubborn.

R2D2 said it right..."Cant please everyone at all times."

Thanks..I used to be against them but now I have met kids who love them so how can I argue with that?

Yes, I also have met kids who hate theirs so it can go either way. I just stay neutral cuz I dont want to take sides...

I am not neutral when it comes to oral-only deaf ed for many reasons but that is another subject itself

*nodding sadly*

I thought the same as you as well.

All what I do is respect parents view on their children when we have different view as them. It doesn't mean that we are anti-deaf or anti-CI... If anyone who label us as an anti-deaf or anti-CI then is their ignorant and uneducation.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

I see the problem is your attitude in many posts here, that's make the posters angry and offense.

And how is that an excuse to insult me?

You call Jillo transparent that's because you agree with someone. I would like to remind you that someone suggest you to check with therapy to find out how and where your attitude come from.

yes that was Jillio just because she couldn't contr-argument my arguments she decided to insult me again, and because she was so frustrated from her unability to talk back to me, she sent me to the therapist.
how childish. I can imagine her stomping her feet at me...
and she IS transparent.

You claim that Jillo's son might be "happy" but it could be something wrong with you... It could be?

I have no doubt her son is happy.
I used "" not because I don't believe he is not really happy - of course he is! - I used it because naturally if you grew up believing what you have is best for you, you ARE happy with it.
It's called indoctrination. He would be equally happy if she had him implanted and mainstreamed instead. Because she would told him this is the best way.
So, either way, HE would be happy. But she - she has to live with the choice she made for him. So, naturally she has to believe she chose well.

Definition of indoctrinate - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
indoctrinate
One entry found for indoctrinate.


Main Entry: in·doc·tri·nate
Pronunciation: in-'däk-tr&-"nAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -nat·ed; -nat·ing
Etymology: probably from Middle English endoctrinen, from Anglo-French endoctriner, from en- + doctrine doctrine
1 : to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : TEACH
2 : to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle
- in·doc·tri·na·tion /(")in-"däk-tr&-'nA-sh&n/ noun
- in·doc·tri·na·tor /in-'däk-tr&-"nA-t&r/ noun
Learn more about "indoctrinate" and related topics at Britannica.com
Find more about "indoctrinate" instantly with Live Search
See a map of "indoctrinate" in the Visual Thesaurus
Sponsored Links
Dominate Definition
What Is Dominate? Find Out w/the Dictionary Toolbar

Dictionary.Starware.com
Pronunciation Symbols

IMBUE
1 : to permeate or influence as if by dyeing <the spirit that imbues the new constitution>

Definition of imbue - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Fuzzy

 

[highlands]

Her country has more stringent requirements than than my country does. If I lived in her country, I wouldn't qualify either.

Highland is a male not a female

no problem deafskeptic and I'm not highland .. I'm highlands

 

[jillio]

Sorry hon. I am not buying this bull. Your son, yes he might be "happy" with your choice- like anyone indoctrinated. You, on the other hand have to reassure yourself that the choice you made for your son was right. like someone told about you already - you are transparent.



Hmmm.. just as I suspected - you are having trouble understanding plain English. I did not such things..... read my posts again, and maybe you will have lightbulb moment.

Fuzzy

How about post #43 in"See, this is a Perfect Example", and I quote "made you blind to reason". We'll start there.

Frankly, it doesn't matter to me one iota whether you believe me or not. I know what the truth is, my son knows what the truth is, and the students I work with know what the truth is.

You are a very angry person. I find it very enlightening that you use the word indoctrinated regarding my son, but continue to refer to yourself as "hearing imparied" and spout the philosophy of an oralist. Talk about indoctination! You have permitted the oral philosophy and the medicalized view of deafness to define you, and are extremely resentlful of the factthat you see yourself as handicapped by your deafness as a result of this indoctination by the medicalized point of view. I have seen such an attitude referred to a "hearing think" in Deaf culture. (Not a compliment, incase you are unable to grasp the full connotation).

You can continue on with you limited view of who you are and of what you are capable, and maybe someday, you will be able to work through your issues. As it stands right now, you need to work on helping yourself before you have any capability of helping another. And, when you have achieved the same level of success that my son has achieved, you will have a basis for criticism. At this point in time, you don't have that.

My reccomendation would be that you find a very patient therapist, and work on your anger over being deaf, and not qualifying for that CI that you think willprovide you access to hearing.

Oh, and jsut so you know, suggesting that you receive therapy is not an insult. But it is indicative of your attitude toward yourself that you would perceive it as such.

 

[jillio]

And how is that an excuse to insult me?



yes that was Jillio just because she couldn't contr-argument my arguments she decided to insult me again, and because she was so frustrated from her unability to talk back to me, she sent me to the therapist.
how childish. I can imagine her stomping her feet at me...
and she IS transparent.




I have no doubt her son is happy.
I used "" not because I don't believe he is not really happy - of course he is! - I used it because naturally if you grew up believing what you have is best for you, you ARE happy with it.
It's called indoctrination. He would be equally happy if she had him implanted and mainstreamed instead. Because she would told him this is the best way.
So, either way, HE would be happy. But she - she has to live with the choice she made for him. So, naturally she has to believe she chose well.

Definition of indoctrinate - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
indoctrinate
One entry found for indoctrinate.


Main Entry: in·doc·tri·nate
Pronunciation: in-'däk-tr&-"nAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -nat·ed; -nat·ing
Etymology: probably from Middle English endoctrinen, from Anglo-French endoctriner, from en- + doctrine doctrine
1 : to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : TEACH
2 : to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle
- in·doc·tri·na·tion /(")in-"däk-tr&-'nA-sh&n/ noun
- in·doc·tri·na·tor /in-'däk-tr&-"nA-t&r/ noun
Learn more about "indoctrinate" and related topics at Britannica.com
Find more about "indoctrinate" instantly with Live Search
See a map of "indoctrinate" in the Visual Thesaurus
Sponsored Links
Dominate Definition
What Is Dominate? Find Out w/the Dictionary Toolbar

Dictionary.Starware.com
Pronunciation Symbols

IMBUE
1 : to permeate or influence as if by dyeing <the spirit that imbues the new constitution>

Definition of imbue - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Fuzzy

Nice that you know how to use a dictionary, but dictionay connotation is only one meaning of a word.

Secondly, no my son would not have been as happy had he been implanted and mainstreamed. I have seen the effects of that approach. I have seen what happens to deaf children inthe mainstream, and the picture is not pretty whether they are implanted or not. Your anger is a perfect example of what the mainstream does to children. Shel has provided numerous expamples of the negative effects of simply sticking a deaf child in a mainstream calssroom. She works with the negative effects in other children on a daily basis. Others on this board have detailed some of the negative social and emotional experiences of being isolated in a mainstream educational environment. Of course, I don't expect you to understand or to give credence to these stories. You are still too busy attempting to convince yourself that you survived such an experience without scars, yet everything you say points those scars out. You could be living a much happeior life, but it will require you doing some work in order to become comfortable with your own deafness and stop thinking of yourself as impaired.

 

[jillio]

I see the problem is your attitude in many posts here, that's make the posters angry and offense.

You call Jillo transparent that's because you agree with someone. I would like to remind you that someone suggest you to check with therapy to find out how and where your attitude come from.

You claim that Jillo's son might be "happy" but it could be something wrong with you... It could be?

Thank you, Liebling. Fuzzy's anger is getting int he way of her seeing things clearly. Perhaps one day she will adjust to the fact hat she is deaf and stop thinking of herself as "hearing impaired". and wishing she was hearing. Then she will be able to see things as they really are, rather than as she wishes they were.

And, I know that my son is not only happy, but successful, as well. That's all I need to know. And I also know that, on a daily basis, I assist other deaf students in becoming successful and happy, despite the destruction that oralist attitudes have heaped on them.

 

[Cloggy]

.......... He hasn't opted to be implanted eventhough he could make that decision for himself at any point. He is quite comfortable with his deafness, and doesn't see it as anything that gets inthe way of him living a complete and satisfying life.

Still, him choosing a CI now has a completely different outcome compared to you doing it for him when he was little.
So, in that respect, his options or outcome are not as good as the could have been.
You had a real choice and you choose for him deaf without hearing. (Which worked out fine.)

 

[Cloggy]

.............
You are a very angry person. I find it very enlightening that you use the word indoctrinated regarding my son, but continue to refer to yourself as "hearing imparied" and spout the philosophy of an oralist. Talk about indoctination! You have permitted the oral philosophy and the medicalized view of deafness to define you, and are extremely resentlful of the factthat you see yourself as handicapped by your deafness as a result of this indoctination by the medicalized point of view. I have seen such an attitude referred to a "hearing think" in Deaf culture. (Not a compliment, incase you are unable to grasp the full connotation).

You can continue on with you limited view of who you are and of what you are capable, and maybe someday, you will be able to work through your issues. As it stands right now, you need to work on helping yourself before you have any capability of helping another. And, when you have achieved the same level of success that my son has achieved, you will have a basis for criticism. At this point in time, you don't have that.

My reccomendation would be that you find a very patient therapist, and work on your anger over being deaf, and not qualifying for that CI that you think willprovide you access to hearing.

Oh, and jsut so you know, suggesting that you receive therapy is not an insult. But it is indicative of your attitude toward yourself that you would perceive it as such.

Well well Jill, hope you feel a lot better now, analyzing someone that you do not now, never have met...
It's a behaviour that you have every time someone comes with good arguments.

Because, your choice has made your som what he is today. The connection with Deaf community, ASL, etc.. all comes forth from your choice.
And in that sense, it is indoctrination.
The same with us and Lotte. Our choices have made it possible for her to hear, and with it comes a love and dependence on hearing. In a sense that is also indoctrination.
Same with a child growing up in a christian family. It will be taught the christian "rules" and that willl be its security blanket, due to indoctrination. But the same child, growing up in an islamic family will love the rules of islam. Same thing - indoctrination.

Only later in life, real choices can be made. A choice to find out about islam for the child growing up under christianity, and reverse. But also the deaf child that grew up with CI. It might want to investigate on deafness. Same for the deaf child that grew up without sound.. it might want to investigate on sound.

Now, continuosly, people that heared before have been able to adjust and embrace deafness. (e.g. King)... only recent people that never heared have had the possibility to e able to hear.. the results are still not in..
Both adjustments are difficult....
And they are difficult, because their lives were set out by their parents.

Now, be a good girl, and apologize to Audiofuzzy

 

[Cloggy]

........ Fuzzy's anger is getting int he way of her seeing things clearly. Perhaps one day she will adjust to the fact hat she is deaf and stop thinking of herself as "hearing impaired". and wishing she was hearing. Then she will be able to see things as they really are, rather than as she wishes they were.
.........

Time to stop all this rediculous analyzing and assuming about how someone feels about his/her deafness.
I must say, you do a good impression of a hardcore Deaf person. Anything that is said about hearing by a deaf person will automatically label that person "not in tune with it's deafness"....
It's such CRAP... and in this thread - it's coming from your mouth.

Now, again... just apologize to Audiofuzzy for the rediculous assumptions you made...

 

[jillio]

Time to stop all this rediculous analyzing and assuming about how someone feels about his/her deafness.
I must say, you do a good impression of a hardcore Deaf person. Anything that is said about hearing by a deaf person will automatically label that person "not in tune with it's deafness"....
It's such CRAP... and in this thread - it's coming from your mouth.

Now, again... just apologize to Audiofuzzy for the rediculous assumptions you made...

I haven't made assumptions, I have made observations based on the anger and disconent demonstrated by the poster. And, a person is a he or a she, not an "it". Unless, of course, you consider those who are deaf to be an "it" rather than having full personhood.

And, I'll thank you not to give me orders. If there is something you would like to request, you can do it in a civil manner.