cochlear implants

[Passivist]

Perhaps it's attitudes like yours that contribute to the worsening of outlooks in today's society. Instead of blaming other folks who are able to see a bigger picture, why don't you take a good hard look at yourself and your own theories?

The thing about culture is the celebration of it, while still inter-acting with others, without that it just maintains the isolation. The only way to break down barriers is for mutual sectors making determined effort to bridge the gaps. There does seem a reluctance by the three primary hearing loss sectors to adopt a common approach that will enable deaf in the future to have real choice. At this moment in time does anyone realistically see any of them taking this common approach, which would, make things happen a lot quicker for us all ? There's MUCH made of 'Audist' Hearing attitudes, but the real 'bad attitude' is a relcutance to take a common approach, or accept other deaf and HI want wider choice..

I was sad being told by a cultural deaf activist,when I suggested this, "We don't need you.. we have our 'own' ways of doing things", so that leaves the non-dependent signer, those with severe hearing loss or acquired deafness or use oral means well out of it doesn't it ? Can we then blame the other sectors saying to the cultural deaf, well, then who needs YOU ? Why should we support you ? You've made your point you don't need us. If you are not for us, then the opposite must be true, so we campaign against your access if it denies ours ? All these things contribute to the 'Deaf' feeling they are martyrs, 'Us against everyone else', this view is not one many hold these days, rather they see it is intransigence, and an unwillingness to really expand the deaf options outside a very small and controlled area, I think youth will put an end to this, I hope so, they deserve a more outward-looking leadership than they have at present. Too many want to be 'One-eyed Kings leading a blind nation', a number use fear, which I find completely unacceptable. It's like some petty power struggle... who needs that ?

 

[Cloggy]

.....Yes, but why should the parents be the ones to decide which tools the child should use?......

For toddlers and very small children, it will ALLWAYS be the parents that decide. No matter what the decision. Deciding to have your child decide when it's older is also a decision. The toddler/child cannot decide.

 

[Cloggy]

This thread is about Cochlear implants, not about any languages. Shall we get back on topic?

The topic was left a long time ago and that's OK. It's about the communication, behaviour. I'm learning here.

 

[Cloggy]

The thing about culture is the celebration of it, while still inter-acting with others, without that it just maintains the isolation. The only way to break down barriers is for mutual sectors making determined effort to bridge the gaps. There does seem a reluctance by the three primary hearing loss sectors to adopt a common approach that will enable deaf in the future to have real choice. At this moment in time does anyone realistically see any of them taking this common approach, which would, make things happen a lot quicker for us all ? There's MUCH made of 'Audist' Hearing attitudes, but the real 'bad attitude' is a relcutance to take a common approach, or accept other deaf and HI want wider choice..

I was sad being told by a cultural deaf activist,when I suggested this, "We don't need you.. we have our 'own' ways of doing things", so that leaves the non-dependent signer, those with severe hearing loss or acquired deafness or use oral means well out of it doesn't it ? Can we then blame the other sectors saying to the cultural deaf, well, then who needs YOU ? Why should we support you ? You've made your point you don't need us. If you are not for us, then the opposite must be true, so we campaign against your access if it denies ours ? All these things contribute to the 'Deaf' feeling they are martyrs, 'Us against everyone else', this view is not one many hold these days, rather they see it is intransigence, and an unwillingness to really expand the deaf options outside a very small and controlled area, I think youth will put an end to this, I hope so, they deserve a more outward-looking leadership than they have at present. Too many want to be 'One-eyed Kings leading a blind nation', a number use fear, which I find completely unacceptable. It's like some petty power struggle... who needs that ?

Well said.
What I vision is our daughter being able to be a bridge between deaf and hearing people. I hope that she will keep an interest in sign. But I want her to make her own choices. If she doesn't want to sign - fine. If Deaf culture doesn't want this beautiful person - their loss.

 

[rockdrummer]

I'm a bit hesitant to speak up here, since there's a good chance I'll be flamed, but I'll give it a shot. I feel that being mainstreamed - at least partially - is a good thing. It's not possible to provide a deaf or signing teacher for every class a deaf student might be in - it's just not practical. Nor is it practical to duplicate all the opportunities of a mainstream school in a deaf school (not because it's a *deaf* school, but because it's separate - remember 'separate but equal'?).

This is interesting to me. I think the difference between yours and my perspective is age. You are obviously older and perhaps you are speaking of a large middle or high school or even college. I would tend to agree with you in that regard. My child is young and still in grade school which is much smaller. I don't agree that its not possible for the two or three teachers to learn sign. You have to remember that my child (and others) are at a time in their lives where they are still developing and not all of them understand what is going on around them especially in a fast paced mainstream class. There are times where even the terp has a hard time keeping up and probably skips over stuff. If the teacher was signing, nobody would miss anything. The hearing kids or the deaf kids. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

So then, do we limit the educational options of deaf students by saying, if the teacher doesn't sign, they can't take that class? Or do we say, well, a natively taught class would be better, but this is what we've got? I went through a year of school with a PCA (Personal Care Attendant), a situation very similar to having an interpreter. Yes, it sucked, but had I not put up with it, I would have had to postpone a year of school or homeschooled that year.

I concur but I think there is another choice you have missed. How about we look at the situation and if we don't agree with it, we find out what needs to be done to change it and act accordingly. I am a homeowner and when I look at my tax bill, the majority of it goes to the school system. I don't have a problem with that. But since I am helping to fund the system I believe I (and others) have a say in certian matters. Especially when they affect my childs education. After all, that is what he is in school for. The biggist hurdle I see is numbers. The majority is hearing so getting the system to budge will be difficult but not impossible.

Hypothetical: I have a school with 300 deaf students. 5 of them are interested in taking the AP Computer Science exam; the rest aren't. Do we say, "sorry, we don't have the resources to do a whole class, you're not gonna be able to do that", or do we offer them the option of having a 'terp and taking the class with the hearing students either in the same school (if the school has both hearing and deaf) or at a nearby mainstream school?

I agree with you. Provide a terp if that is the only option.

Here's another bonus to partial mainstreaming: at some point, these students are going to graduate. Isn't it a good thing if they have some experience interacting with hearies, with and/or without an interpreter? And on the flip side of that, what do you think breeds more understanding of d/Deaf - segregating them away from society and sending them to a "special" school, or integrating them into society and allowing their hearing peers to interact with them at a young age?

Again, I am in agreement here. My child is in with mainstream kids for some of the day, and I think that is a good thing. I just think putting a deaf kid with hearies, without a terp and without the hearies knowing how to sign, communication will be difficult but not impossible. I am in no way suggesting that they be seperated. Thank you ismi for sharing this.

 

[Malfoyish]

Too many want to be 'One-eyed Kings leading a blind nation', a number use fear, which I find completely unacceptable. It's like some petty power struggle... who needs that ?

No one. I also find it unacceptable. Very good post, Passivist. Thank you for pointing this out.

We'd all do so much better by adopting acceptance of OTHER ideas and viewpoints - it is perfectly okay to maintain your own opinion, but there is a limit to it - part of the trick is to also acknowledge that our own perspectives on any given topic doesn't necessarily mean it's the correct one or the wrong one for that matter. It's personal choice that is often omitted from being considered when such issues are brought up.

From what I can see, there's really no "established" culture, is there? As in, OFFICIALLY established - where there's any laws or guidelines to be followed.

I think you did well in mentioning those one-eyed Kings you speak of. These are the people who are intent on setting a set of rules for a specific group to follow. By doing this, he or she only needs one or two people who follow and concur in their theories...then THEY only need one or two in order to keep the belief firm. So the circle begins to grow. Before ya know it, there's a dividing line between those who have been led to believe things that may only be right for themselves and damned if there's anyone who dares disagree with the ideas proposed by that exclusive circle. In the end, you have two or more opposing sides. Next, people begin to look at what's different instead of what's the same...and the insults and finger pointing and aggravation begins to flow. It's ridiculous.

Choices are choices. What both sides need to agree on is that very concept.

 

[Liza]

No one. I also find it unacceptable. Very good post, Passivist. Thank you for pointing this out.

We'd all do so much better by adopting acceptance of OTHER ideas and viewpoints - it is perfectly okay to maintain your own opinion, but there is a limit to it - part of the trick is to also acknowledge that our own perspectives on any given topic doesn't necessarily mean it's the correct one or the wrong one for that matter. It's personal choice that is often omitted from being considered when such issues are brought up.

From what I can see, there's really no "established" culture, is there? As in, OFFICIALLY established - where there's any laws or guidelines to be followed.

I think you did well in mentioning those one-eyed Kings you speak of. These are the people who are intent on setting a set of rules for a specific group to follow. By doing this, he or she only needs one or two people who follow and concur in their theories...then THEY only need one or two in order to keep the belief firm. So the circle begins to grow. Before ya know it, there's a dividing line between those who have been led to believe things that may only be right for themselves and damned if there's anyone who dares disagree with the ideas proposed by that exclusive circle. In the end, you have two or more opposing sides. Next, people begin to look at what's different instead of what's the same...and the insults and finger pointing and aggravation begins to flow. It's ridiculous.

Choices are choices. What both sides need to agree on is that very concept.

Excellent post, Malfy. I agree with what you have written here. I've always maintained this viewpoint - making room for disagreements, and just learning to live with it. I agree that we do need some kind of structure - I think it comes from the within.. we have our ethics as some kind of structure or guidelines.. and of course, I appreciate the one eyed king analogy.. LOL very true. Let's say we also have our one eyed queens, too!

I think too many people take "No, I disagree" wayyyy too personal... hey, nothing wrong with laughing about it together afterwards!

It also makes a friendship very strong and unique, too... We all become better persons through disagreements and agreements... or it would be very boring!!

 

[flowers]

CI just wrong!!!

I took sign 1 and 2 in college, and enjoyed learning a new langue. I have never met anyone who had CI until I moved to VA, and met a family who has two children with them. Oh, and both parents can hear. Wow, I cannot understand why they would do this to these children. I very much disagree with drilling into a child's head to just to have them hear. I think the Deaf community is an amazing experience.

 

[Passivist]

It is with considerable sadness to read some views, not just from the deaf culture area but those who respond to the frustration by attacking, I think all sectors need to take stock and see what is happening, it all fuels the fire, keeps it going. Even at the very height of some very personal and nasty exchanges, we still read, of the skill, the dynamism, the energy and intelligence, (And yes the fear of isolation too), it shows that the hearing loss sector is filled with considerably able and very clever people, to reduce that to ya-boo rhetoric demeans us all, we are better than this.

Those who communicate differently, hear a bit more, or a lot less, use this mode, that mode, aids/CI's to get along, went to this school, or that school, are just the sum of the whole, , in many respects we share so much in common, a lot more than we don't. If we are to bump along with everyone then we have to work at it, life isn't just an access/rights campaign, it's for living too. While we fight each other, we will be the only casualities.

I'm no saint, I've made mistakes too, I'm beginning to see where. It would be a damn shame to look back when we're all older and think, if only....if only we had just stopped arguing, and communicated to each other this wouldn't drag on. Make no mistake the real and debilitating debates are NOT between mainstream access/medical professions/or the audisms, but between us. We each have a relatively orderly access strategy toward mainstream, but stalk each other, waiting for the first one to blink, it's no way to equality or respect. This is about us, not 'Gunfight at the OK Corral 2'.

 

[deafdyke]

Passcifst, you really have to undy that Deaf culture in US is DIFFERENT then in the UK.It's a lot more accepting! You're not automaticly classified as "oral" just b/c you have some oral skills. (I know in the UK you are......the Deafer then thou folks have won over there, which just means that over there it's more black and white) Sure, we argue and debate......but it just goes to show that just like other social movements there's a wide range of thinking and philosophy on this. Just like with feminism.....there's the girl power type, then there's the bra burner etc etc......it's just that there are many different flavors of being deaf.

 

[ismi]

This is interesting to me. I think the difference between yours and my perspective is age. You are obviously older and perhaps you are speaking of a large middle or high school or even college. I would tend to agree with you in that regard. My child is young and still in grade school which is much smaller. I don't agree that its not possible for the two or three teachers to learn sign.

Certainly, I agree with you here. I am talking from the perspective of a college student (and thinking more of middle school and up).

I concur but I think there is another choice you have missed. How about we look at the situation and if we don't agree with it, we find out what needs to be done to change it and act accordingly. I am a homeowner and when I look at my tax bill, the majority of it goes to the school system. I don't have a problem with that. But since I am helping to fund the system I believe I (and others) have a say in certian matters. Especially when they affect my childs education. After all, that is what he is in school for. The biggist hurdle I see is numbers. The majority is hearing so getting the system to budge will be difficult but not impossible.

The problem is, once you get past elementary, insisting that the teacher be able to sign (and I have heard some people insist on that, though not necessarily you) is going to limit a deaf student's opportunities, for the same reason that a student in a small town doesn't have the same educational opportunities as a student from the city.

Again, I am in agreement here. My child is in with mainstream kids for some of the day, and I think that is a good thing. I just think putting a deaf kid with hearies, without a terp and without the hearies knowing how to sign, communication will be difficult but not impossible. I am in no way suggesting that they be seperated. Thank you ismi for sharing this.

Yes - I would never advocate putting a student in without a terp. That way lies madness ;-) I was commenting more on sweetmind's statement that depending on a terp "loses freedom", and so is a bad thing. Sort of trying to balance her more extreme statements. While it's true that depending on a terp does cause you to lose some autonomy, I think there is a tradeoff to be made, and refusing to use terps when it's appropriate leads to losses for both deaf and hearing students. I've never been an idealist - I go with what's practical.

I think you and I are largely in agreement on this topic, just wanted to clarify.

 

[netrox]

oh my god, sweetmind is still on it?!?!

Sweetmind, my dear sweetmind... please.... just please... stop, ok?

 

[Cloggy]

oh my god, sweetmind is still on it?!?!

Sweetmind, my dear sweetmind... please.... just please... stop, ok?

Hi Netrox... Name rings a bell, nice to see you here.

 

[Passivist]

Passcifst, you really have to undy that Deaf culture in US is DIFFERENT then in the UK.It's a lot more accepting! You're not automaticly classified as "oral" just b/c you have some oral skills. (I know in the UK you are......the Deafer then thou folks have won over there, which just means that over there it's more black and white) Sure, we argue and debate......but it just goes to show that just like other social movements there's a wide range of thinking and philosophy on this. Just like with feminism.....there's the girl power type, then there's the bra burner etc etc......it's just that there are many different flavors of being deaf.

It's a pity this 'wider range of thinking' hasn't morphed into wider acceptance, and the 'flavours' don't really gel.... There's no 'winners' here, sadly a lot of losers. Culture cannot flourish in Isolation it becomes secular. Acceptance cannot happen until we respect each other, integration and equality isn't real if you only do it on a part-time basis, and from a stance of no quarter given. The size of the US (Physical), and the wider dispresal of deaf there, doesn't really allow the 'conflict' of ideaologies and access requirements to happen as they do in the UK, I agree. We recently saw the equivelant of $3.2m given for the sign user, and it was earmarked for them only, leaving, 130,000 with hearing loss and deafness in the same area, unable to benefit. This would have paid for a lot of CI's people here cannot afford ! This sort of thing too, drives division, sign users are more 'deserving' than a person losing hearing and going deaf ? The whole approach to deaf support is wrong here, and I suspect elsewhere. These 'debates' are highlighting the direction of support driven by the cultural advocate, who clearly has no interest in any other deaf person. The others will get angry, and who will blame them ? As I write the people adminstering the funding are arguing over who 'Owns' it.... We've two 'rival' systems of the British (BSL), sign language courses being mooted, it's like the USA having different ways of teaching ASL, having no norm at all, use differing signs, and multiple examination and accreditation standards in it.. One set of deaf people would approve an interpreter in one system but refuse to use another, all helps does it ?

 

[Boult]

oh my god, sweetmind is still on it?!?!

Sweetmind, my dear sweetmind... please.... just please... stop, ok?

LMAO check your pm

EDIT: ahem, can't send you a pm.. your loss..

 

[Oceanbreeze]

Perhaps it's attitudes like yours that contribute to the worsening of outlooks in today's society. Instead of blaming other folks who are able to see a bigger picture, why don't you take a good hard look at yourself and your own theories?

Some people are their own worst enemy, though. Sweetmind is one of them. She doesn't see that she is contributing to the discrimination she screams about here. People with exclusive atitudes shoot themselves in the foot every time, and she is doing it well. If you want people to take you seriously, you have to show them what you are capable of. Oftentimes, this means fitting in. Sweetmind refuses to assimilate into the hearing world. As long as she does this, she's going limit herself and her opportunites.

She's letting people crap on her, and I don't feel sorry for her.

 

[Sweetmind]

OCEANBREEZE and the rest of other audist attitude followers who have so much negative and bittered about me being so different and having a very different philosophy.. Guess what You have a real problem on your own while I dont have a problem with you guys.. Grow up KIDS!

For God s sake! I am sorry you have to face the truth after all you all have been denying too much.. I am not gonna to worry about it.. The truth will come out..

 

[netrox]

Sweetmind, I was hoping that you'd become a better person and not sound so bitter or so critical of hearing people or not so zealously anti-CI... nope, you're still the same Sweetmind as I've known you 7 years ago!!!

I guess some people don't change.

 

[Sweetmind]

It doesnt mean that I am Against CIer people.. NICE TRY , Netrox. I have my rights for having my strongly against CI on those d/Deaf children. You wont admit since Doctor is not doing the right thing lately. They are just making money out on d/Deaf chlldren and ripped off on the parents in many ways.

You know what CI radicals and CI professionals people are full of it in many ways. There are many negative side effects that many people dont know the whole story. I do know some of it.


CI is not making you a hearing person 100 percent.. CI is not making you a real functionally hearing. HA and CI are the same behavior patterns as is.

Too much bias and ONE _ SIDED is very wrong.

TOO pushing by audiologist and CI doctors. Whats the purpose for them doing that to those parents who are very innocent and ignorant people.. Sighs! Very selfish and self centered as I can see.

DENIAL over and over...

AND I am not gonna to sniff around ORALISM issue alone that has been going on and on. It was not successful in many ways.. It s still not having TWO WAYS of street. So there!

YOu need to read it more than 100 times that I have never said it. You need to look up the mirror and says in your own words.. That means you are the one who hated me. It s your issue not mine.. I dont give a damn anymore.

I just let people decide for themselves.. I m not here to have everybody to like me or dislike me.. Thats their issues not mine.

Guess what, I love me , myself , and the whole of me being deaf and using my hands to communicate with anybody in ASL that works so well for both sides than just having an oral speaking alone or struggled to memorize those words.. For what?? i m not doing for anyone s favor because thats who I am.. Guess what, I can speak and am D E A F. I am proud of it that I can do both ASL with or without orally speaking.. Thats equal with Signed English with or without orally speaking.. Thats a choice for me to do. No one can force me to speak it alone or hear it alone. I do not need o depend on any devices that must to hear for hearing people s sake as they said so.. what the hell do they think of us deaf people? jeeeezzz !! Thats their prejudice as always.

So long! IMMATURE KIDS I ever know.. Go ahead kiss their arses that you want to be follow like a dog. Have fun. Someday you will realize it when time comes

I do not need this guy named Cloggy [hearnig with a very negatve thinking of deaf itself] as well as he loves to control and manipulate people s mind that I have already discovered the truth a long time ago. Thats why he want to destroy me because I am DEAF and saw the evidence with all my eyes for a long time. It s a proven that helps me to know what kind of people they are.. I rather to go with people with a very great attitude and have a good deaf heart and good heart that is their openmind and willing to learn and mingle with us all along. I respect them all the way.

bye bye kids

 

[Sweetmind]

OTHER THING IS I strongly believe that literacy is more important for d/Deaf people than speechreading is. Thats all to it. NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR DEAF EARS because it s hard to learn in the classroom with all that noise pollution with those devices.. I find this is as is.

LITERACY! Without a doubt, literacy is far more important. Why?

* Oralism is hard on deaf people, especially without being able to hear what they're saying.

* Reading and writing ARE accessible to deaf people without any special accomodations (they can see the page). And if an interpreter is not around but they need to say something to a non-signer, they can write it down and pass notes back and forth.

* Traditionally, oralist deaf education has focused more on speaking and lipreading than on reading and writing. The result is that many deaf people who go through these programs have a terrible language background because they can't speak English, nor can they read or write it, and they may have bad or no signing skills either.

* Deaf people who are educated manually on written English tend to have very good English skills and be bilingual in ASL and English, and many may even want to learn to speak it. They can read directions, write to non-signers and read their notes. THAT's communication--understanding.

So, without a doubt, LITERACY is FAR more important.