Change the future for a deaf child

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jillio said:
It doesn't have anything to do with confidence. Parallel use of language keeps the two languages separate and complete in their use. What is confusing about sim-com is that it combines the two and what results in a less that adequate model of English, and a less than adequate model of ASL. It is not a correct model of any language.

But,hey, you don't have to take my word for it. Ask the linguists and the cognitive psychologists, as well as the developmental psychologists.

Possible, but not likely.
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You're talking about sim-com which is a by product of TC, not necessarily a policy standard for TC. I agree with what you said above about sim-com having a poor model/standard, but when people started doing programs of TC, I don't think that they had this in mind. TC is a noble idea, however the consequences for some of the people who came out of TC programs were less than ideal due to unforeseen circumstances. I'm saying that this could very well happen to some people in BiBi programs. Shel said it started in the 90s, that's new to me because it takes at least a decade to develop and get a significant number of people into those programs, and then another decade to see the studies of long term effects of being in a BiBi program.

Anyway, I'm not against BiBi at all of course and we do need a Deaf Education standard and so far I see that BiBi seems to be the best.
 
Daredevel7 said:
You're talking about sim-com which is a by product of TC, not necessarily a policy standard for TC. I agree with what you said above about sim-com having a poor model/standard, but when people started doing programs of TC, I don't think that they had this in mind. TC is a noble idea, however the consequences for some of the people who came out of TC programs were less than ideal due to unforeseen circumstances. I'm saying that this could very well happen to some people in BiBi programs. Shel said it started in the 90s, that's new to me because it takes at least a decade to develop and get a significant number of people into those programs, and then another decade to see the studies of long term effects of being in a BiBi program.

Anyway, I'm not against BiBi at all of course and we do need a Deaf Education standard and so far I see that BiBi seems to be the best.
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I personally have never observed a TC program that didn't employ sim-com. The whole philosophy of TC is to offer everything available at all times.

But BiBi programs in other countries are much older and should be serving as our model.
 
Daredevel7 said:
You're talking about sim-com which is a by product of TC, not necessarily a policy standard for TC. I agree with what you said above about sim-com having a poor model/standard, but when people started doing programs of TC, I don't think that they had this in mind. TC is a noble idea, however the consequences for some of the people who came out of TC programs were less than ideal due to unforeseen circumstances. I'm saying that this could very well happen to some people in BiBi programs. Shel said it started in the 90s, that's new to me because it takes at least a decade to develop and get a significant number of people into those programs, and then another decade to see the studies of long term effects of being in a BiBi program.

Anyway, I'm not against BiBi at all of course and we do need a Deaf Education standard and so far I see that BiBi seems to be the best.
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Look at the BiBi Deaf education programs in Sweden..very successful. We are using them as a model.
 
Ooops! Jillio, we posted the same thing at the same time...


:lol:
 
jillio said:
Again!:lol:

Have you ever observed a TC program that did not use Sim-Com?
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I have observed several...trying to remember..the one that I worked at as an aide, the teacher believed in oralism but she had several deaf students who couldnt lip read so she would speak but sign a little..it was weird but all 13 kids couldnt understand her and kept asking me what did she say so I would sign with voice off for those who had no oral skills and use my oral skills for those who didnt know sign language at all. It was nuts.

The other programs...I couldnt really hear if the teachers were using their voices but they would sign using SEE and it was all jumbled..not constistent..I had to work hard not to fall asleep and many of the kids were fidgeting and frustrated. I'll bet that they were bored out of their minds..poor kids.

In one program, one teacher believed in the BiBi approach and even though the program called itself TC, she applied the BiBi model in the classroom and I kept asking her what is BiBi? I had no clue what she was talking about...looking back...I am like "duh!!!" .

At least kids who have ASL terps in mainstreamed settings are getting the appropriate model of languages IF the terp is certified and fluent in ASL which in several cases, arent. I have seen terps who are people who have taken maybe two or so ASL classes become educational terps which just as bad.

Then, there are kids like me who sit in a classroom missing out 90% of what is being said becuase the experts assumed because they speak so well, that they could hear as well...very misleading.
 
shel90 said:
I have observed several...trying to remember..the one that I worked at as an aide, the teacher believed in oralism but she had several deaf students who couldnt lip read so she would speak but sign a little..it was weird but all 13 kids couldnt understand her and kept asking me what did she say so I would sign with voice off for those who had no oral skills and use my oral skills for those who didnt know sign language at all. It was nuts.

The other programs...I couldnt really hear if the teachers were using their voices but they would sign using SEE and it was all jumbled..not constistent..I had to work hard not to fall asleep and many of the kids were fidgeting and frustrated. I'll bet that they were bored out of their minds..poor kids.

In one program, one teacher believed in the BiBi approach and even though the program called itself TC, she applied the BiBi model in the classroom and I kept asking her what is BiBi? I had no clue what she was talking about...looking back...I am like "duh!!!" .

At least kids who have ASL terps in mainstreamed settings are getting the appropriate model of languages IF the terp is certified and fluent in ASL which in several cases, arent. I have seen terps who are people who have taken maybe two or so ASL classes become educational terps which just as bad.
Then, there are kids like me who sit in a classroom missing out 90% of what is being said becuase the experts assumed because they speak so well, that they could hear as well...very misleading.
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This is too true!

And thanks for answering. The programs I have observed were never any sign without voice, and often no sign at all except for a word or two in the sentence.
 
jillio said:
This is too true!

And thanks for answering. The programs I have observed were never any sign without voice, and often no sign at all except for a word or two in the sentence.
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That was what I meant with that teacher whom I worked for in that TC program in Phx. She kept telling me that she couldnt believe that the kids do "this thing" with their hands with an ugly look on her face. Also she would tell the kids who didnt have oral skills to look at me and if they wanted to be like me, stop fooling around. I was shocked cuz I had just graduated with my BA from Special Ed and was thinking of pursuing my Master's in Deaf ed so I wanted to work in a Deaf ed program before enrolling ...I almost didnt pursue it cuz of her and that program...I was appalled by how it was run. Thanks to my deaf brother who told me that not all deaf ed programs were that poorly run. He was right...whew!
 
shel90 said:
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That was what I meant with that teacher whom I worked for in that TC program in Phx. She kept telling me that she kept believe that the kids do "this thing" with their hands with an ugly look on her face. Also she would tell the kids who didnt have oral skills to look at me and if they wanted to be like me, stop fooling around. I was shocked cuz I had just graduated with my BA from Special Ed and was thinking of pursuing my Master's in Deaf ed so I wanted to work in a Deaf ed program before enrolling ...I almost didnt pursue it cuz of her and that program...I was appalled by how it was run. Thanks to my deaf brother who told me that not all deaf ed programs were that poorly run. He was right...whew!
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Oh, wow! What an introduction to Deaf Ed. No wonder you questioned it! Those kind of teachers don't have any business in a classroom with students. Obviously, she did not have much respect for her students!
 
Hear Again said:
exactly -- which is why i asked what prostitution had to do with being raised in an oral-only environment.
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I mentioned it as an example of an orally taught deaf girl who was declared an oral success. Then she left school and turned to prostitution. Where did I say all 'oral successes' did that?

It's obvious that you are trying to twist my words.
 
Nika said:
I think signing skills should either be taught simultaneously or before speech. A Deaf child needs to acquire an L1 language in order to be able to master an L2 language. I think it is only fair to a Deaf child to offer a language that is in the medium most natural for him/her--that is, a visual medium. (And in the case of a Deafblind child, a tactile medium.) It has been shown over and over that Deaf children that are exposed to sign language first are much more successful in acquiring spoken language. However I also don't think that Deaf people should ever be ashamed of using their voices, and should be encouraged to speak when they feel comfortable. If a Deaf person prefers not to use their voice, I think that should be fine too. After all, imagine if signing was enforcing on the hearing population. So voice shouldn't be enforced on the Deaf population, but at the same time it should be encouraged as another option (just as I think hearing people should make an effort to learn signed languages.)
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Good post.
 
shel90 said:
That's what I believe too...I do encourage all deaf children to learn oral skills but putting it first risking their education and language/literacy skills. Sorry but education comes first and moremost and every deaf child has the right to have full access to it using a language they have guaranteed full access to. Spoken language didn't give me full access to my education so I wasn't on par with my hearing peers as far as receiving education. Information, and communication even though I was in the same classroom as they were. That is just plain wrong to do that to children IMO.
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I totally agree!
 
dreama said:
I mentioned it as an example of an orally taught deaf girl who was declared an oral success. Then she left school and turned to prostitution. Where did I say all 'oral successes' did that?

It's obvious that you are trying to twist my words.
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...and it's obvious that you are accusing me of doing something i'm not.

as for your example, why did she drop out of school and become a prostitute? i'm willing to bet that it *wasn't* because she was educated orally.

it sounds to me as if you're trying to make an argument where there is none to be found.
 
Hear Again said:
again, i'm referring to children who are successful using the oral approach. why doesn't anyone here understand that??? <very frustrated>
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Instead of just being very frustrated how about listening to people like Shel who are experts on this subject?

Shel has been there, we've met oral failures, we met 'oral successes' we met sucessful people who use Sign language (with AND without speech). I'm guessing that you are just relying on information obtained from biased sources.
 
Hear Again said:
why did she drop out of school and become a prostitute? i'm willing to bet that it *wasn't* because she was educated orally.
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Where did I say she dropped out of school?

I said she was considered an oral 'success'. Then AFTER she left school she became a prostitute.

I know it's only my POV but I do think she would have done a LOT better if she'd been sent to a deaf school and used sign language. She also came from a really bad background.

That wasn't the point I was making though.

The point I was making was the teachers at the PHU considered her an oral success. Just because she could speak.
 
dreama said:
Instead of just being very frustrated how about listening to people like Shel who are experts on this subject?

Shel has been there, we've met oral failures, we met 'oral successes' we met sucessful people who use Sign language (with AND without speech). I'm guessing that you are just relying on information obtained from biased sources.
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Who says that just because someone disagrees with you, they must not be listening, or misinformed, or uninformed? Maybe they just disagree with you???
 
faire_jour said:
Who says that just because someone disagrees with you, they must not be listening, or misinformed, or uninformed? Maybe they just disagree with you???
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So you disagree that many deaf and children people suffered from the oral-only approach?
 
dreama said:
Where did I say she dropped out of school?

I said she was considered an oral 'success'. Then AFTER she left school she became a prostitute.

I know it's only my POV but I do think she would have done a LOT better if she'd been sent to a deaf school and used sign language. She also came from a really bad background.

That wasn't the point I was making though.

The point I was making was the teachers at the PHU considered her an oral success. Just because she could speak.
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Why do you think she should have gone to deaf school? Did she have language? Could she read and write well? Why do you think she needed sign?

The prostitution says more about her home life, family, etc than it does about her education.
 
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