Best way to develop oral skills?

[Jiro]

Better use of ASL syntax, classifiers, modifiers, and function. Stuff that is not taught. Kind of like going back to the past tense illustration. I acquired spoken English as a native. I intuited at a very young age that the addition of -ed to a word changes the time frame being referred to. At first, when I have internalized this, as a two year old, I overgeneralize and add -ed to everything I want to make past tense. However, at 2 1/2 years, I have intuited also that there are exceptions to the rule of -ed creating past tense reference, and so I begin to use the exceptions in my language.

The same way with sign. These nuances are intuited and internalized when it is acquired as an infant/toddler. They then use them appropriately, where someone that has only learned the grammatical rules for ASL will use them appropriately the majority of the time, but will miss the subtleties.

Because of your keen observation in being able to detect the subtleties in others, I'm curious about yourself. How is your ASL fluency? is it as close as native ASL'er or do you make same subtleties as us (in writing)?

 

[jillio]

Because of your keen observation in being able to detect the subtleties in others, I'm curious about yourself. How is your ASL fluency? is it as close as native ASL'er or do you make same subtleties as us (in writing)?

I make the same mistakes in ASL usage as a non native would make in English, yes. I am a fluent user of ASL, just like many of you are fluent users of English. However, I am not a native user, and therefore, do not approximate the skills of a native user. I can't "play" with ASL in the same way that I can "play" with English. And my son's skills surpass my own, even though we have both been using the language for the same amount of time. A native ASL user would spot me as a non-native user in a minute, just from the subtle differences. However, someone else who is not native, would not see the subtleties, and would not be able to spot me as non-native because I am fluent. I was able to achieve a high degree of fluency in ASL as my second language, however, because I had the advantage of having acquired an L1 language that could be transferred.

 

[Jiro]

I make the same mistakes in ASL usage as a non native would make in English, yes. I am a fluent user of ASL, just like many of you are fluent users of English. However, I am not a native user, and therefore, do not approximate the skills of a native user. I can't "play" with ASL in the same way that I can "play" with English. And my son's skills surpass my own, even though we have both been using the language for the same amount of time. A native ASL user would spot me as a non-native user in a minute, just from the subtle differences. However, someone else who is not native, would not see the subtleties, and would not be able to spot me as non-native because I am fluent. I was able to achieve a high degree of fluency in ASL as my second language, however, because I had the advantage of having acquired an L1 language that could be transferred.

ORALISTS - TAKE NOTICE OF THIS! Now do you understand better?

 

[shel90]

I make the same mistakes in ASL usage as a non native would make in English, yes. I am a fluent user of ASL, just like many of you are fluent users of English. However, I am not a native user, and therefore, do not approximate the skills of a native user. I can't "play" with ASL in the same way that I can "play" with English. And my son's skills surpass my own, even though we have both been using the language for the same amount of time. A native ASL user would spot me as a non-native user in a minute, just from the subtle differences. However, someone else who is not native, would not see the subtleties, and would not be able to spot me as non-native because I am fluent. I was able to achieve a high degree of fluency in ASL as my second language, however, because I had the advantage of having acquired an L1 language that could be transferred.

And I am not a native ASL user so as a result I am not a native user in either languages..


Oral Deaf Education=EPIC FAIL!!!

 

[naisho]

Most interesting is that this whole concept is rather simple once someone catches what's going on behind it all.
This whole thing is like, if I could convey an simple explanation behind it:

It's like the shoes you wore for the day. Once you slip on those cross-trainers and are out of the house... It might not be wise to go back home and swipe them during midday for another pair.. timing appears to be crucial for growing children. And you only get one pair to pick.
These shoes then decide the results of how you feel about your feet at the end of the day, for what you were doing.

When I attempt to speak in ASL, Mandarin, Japanese, I have been told that I associate unnecessary grammar. This is likely because my brain is functioning the way I acquired english. I learned all these languages past the acquisition period like around age 10+ or after.

This is how any kind of Oriental knows right away that I'm not as native as they are.

 

[jillio]

And I am not a native ASL user so as a result I am not a native user in either languages..


Oral Deaf Education=EPIC FAIL!!!

Exactly. You are a fluent user of both, but a native user of neither. The difference between you and many others in your situation is that you recognize the implications of that.

 

[Daredevel7]

Well, then I guess based on Jillio's statements, I am not a native user of anything. *hangs head down and walks away* *sniff sniff*

 

[jillio]

Well, then I guess based on Jillio's statements, I am not a native user of anything. *hangs head down and walks away* *sniff sniff*

Poor Daredevel! But you are a fluent enough user that it doesn't cause undue problems for you. However, you are an exception rather than a rule. That is the whole point. Shel, as well, is an exception rather than a rule, but due to her educational track, has been taught the same things I am saying and can apply them to her own experience.

I think it's wise too, to keep in mind that when it comes to the use of English, we see a lot of exceptions on this forum. The reason is that someone who has severe problems would not be drawn to post on a forum that requires written English. By the same token, we see a variety of problems with English, and hear more stories than not of what these people experienced as a negative in an oral environment....despite the fact that they worked so hard to overcome it. As I always say, it is much easier to prevent a problem than to fix it once it has occurred.

 

[Bottesini]

Well, then I guess based on Jillio's statements, I am not a native user of anything. *hangs head down and walks away* *sniff sniff*

Don't feel too bad. I confess my hearing father signed better than me and I sign PSE. :Oops:

 

[jillio]

Don't feel too bad. I confess my hearing father signed better than me and I sign PSE. :Oops:

No need to be embarrassed. They did give you the exposure you needed to acquire an L1 language, and it shows in the way you play with words and use double entendres and sarcasm in your writing.

 

[naisho]

Well, then I guess based on Jillio's statements, I am not a native user of anything. *hangs head down and walks away* *sniff sniff*

No worries though.. it probably matters if you care about fluidity of speech, which ONLY seems to concern hearing people as it is the art of the ear. Otherwise who cares!

I have this feeling that we're gonna have some others barging in the room who skipped the whole lecture discussion a chunk of us went through. Prepare to have handy cliffnotes ready.


This was truly an enriching lesson and discussion. I am appreciative of it, because it not only helped me understand more of who I am, it also educates how it affects future children.
A round of thanks for everyone who participated.

 

[jillio]

No worries though.. it probably matters if you care about fluidity of speech, which ONLY seems to concern hearing people as it is the art of the ear. Otherwise who cares!


I have this feeling that we're gonna have some others barging in the room who skipped the whole lecture discussion a chunk of us went through. Prepare to have handy cliffnotes ready.

I carry my cliff notes in my head, lol!

But, from my standpoint, and an educational standpoint, it affects more than just fluidity of speech. It actually affects cognitive processes, which is why I am so passionate about the topic.

 

[faire_jour]

So at what point does it become "impossible" for a child to acquire spoken language? Mild loss? 20 db? Unilateral? What about with amplification?

 

[jillio]

So at what point does it become "impossible" for a child to acquire spoken language? Mild loss? 20 db? Unilateral? What about with amplification?

As it has been said numerous times, it depends on many factors other than the dB of loss.

 

[faire_jour]

As it has been said numerous times, it depends on many factors other than the dB of loss.

So, what is it? When does it become impossible? ANY hearing loss?

 

[naisho]

So at what point does it become "impossible" for a child to acquire spoken language? Mild loss? 20 db? Unilateral? What about with amplification?

I know that your inquiry is related to hearing loss, but you should focus on the other the chief variable first, that is the "age" or "timelimit" of the child.

From the research given and discussed on acquisition, it seems that from birth until around age ~3~5 or so (probably varies), what we have learned around then influences us for the rest of our lives.

I do not know about hearing loss because I am no trained professional in this area. However if you read my past replies in this thread: I was diagnosed at three with a severe/profound loss in one ear, and with little loss in the other.
It was in standard hearing range, don't have exacts but I am pretty positive it was under 25-30 db. I used to be able to hear fine out of one ear without a hearing aid until time crept up.

 

[jillio]

So, what is it? When does it become impossible? ANY hearing loss?

Impossible is too concrete a term to apply to something like this. You are looking for a definitive, black and white answer, and it does not exist.

 

[faire_jour]

I know that your inquiry is related to hearing loss, but you should focus on the other the chief variable first, that is the "age" or "timelimit" of the child.

From the research given and discussed on acquisition, it seems that from birth until around age ~3~5 or so (probably varies), what we have learned around then influences us for the rest of our lives.

I do not know about hearing loss because I am no trained professional in this area. However if you read my past replies in this thread: I was diagnosed at three with a severe/profound loss in one ear, and with little loss in the other.
It was in standard hearing range, don't have exacts but I am pretty positive it was under 25-30 db. I used to be able to hear fine out of one ear without a hearing aid until time crept up.

I just disagree with the idea that no child with any hearing loss can possible acquire spoken language. I think that is a gross overstatement.

 

[jillio]

I just disagree with the idea that no child with any hearing loss can possible acquire spoken language. I think that is a gross overstatement.

Well, you are the only one making such a black and white statement.

 

[faire_jour]

A deaf child does not acquire spoken language. A deaf child learns spoken language. Are you again talking about vocab?

You'll note that the OP used the term "develop". That is a different concept that acquisition when applied to language.

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