Best way to develop oral skills?

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shel90 said:
I am not sure if I suffer grammatical errors but I do know that I lack in creativiness with the use of vocabulary. I always scored below grade level when it came to vocabulary on the standardized tests. Knowing that, that was one of the many reasons for not going to law school. I had no confidence in being able to write briefs and memos required by lawyers due to my low vocabulary usage from not having full access to English growing up.
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You don't make grammar errors often but your use of "hurted" indicates you didn't acquire English and that you also learned English like me and Jiro.
 
deafskeptic said:
Yes and it ticks me off when this happens.
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And people blame it on the deaf person for not getting hired or not getting promoted. If it was one or two cases of that happening, then yea, I would be inclined to agree with them but hundreds of cases that I know of..something is wrong with the picture, heh?
 
shel90 said:
And people blame it on the deaf person for not getting hired or not getting promoted. If it was one or two cases of that happening, then yea, I would be inclined to agree with them but hundreds of cases that I know of..something is wrong with the picture, heh?
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Yep.. definitely.
 
deafskeptic said:
You don't make grammar errors often but your use of "hurted" indicates you didn't acquire English and that you also learned English like me and Jiro.
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True...


OrAL deaf education SUCKS!!!!
 
Thanks, naisho and Hear Again, about my writing skills. Now that I know there are people watching me, I am a bit paranoid and have to be careful about the spelling/grammar of my posts here on AD!!!! :lol:

No comment on "oral deaf education sucking"......:whistle:
 
Daredevel7 said:
Thanks, naisho and Hear Again, about my writing skills. Now that I know there are people watching me, I am a bit paranoid and have to be careful about the spelling/grammar of my posts here on AD!!!! :lol:

No comment on "oral deaf education sucking"......:whistle:
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Just being silly with deafskeptic...cuz my writing skills are messed up! :lol:
 
Daredevel7 said:
Thanks, naisho and Hear Again, about my writing skills. Now that I know there are people watching me, I am a bit paranoid and have to be careful about the spelling/grammar of my posts here on AD!!!! :lol:

No comment on "oral deaf education sucking"......:whistle:
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shel90 said:
Just being silly with deafskeptic...cuz my writing skills are messed up! :lol:
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Uh oh.. grammar Nazis are SPYING on me... gotta clean up my grammar errors before anyone notices them. :run:
 
:laugh2: at Daredevel and deafskeptic.

shel, I think your writing skills are excellent as well. All of you (Daredevel, deafskeptic and shel) are wonderful writers and I mean that. :)
 
deafskeptic said:
Uh oh.. grammar Nazis are SPYING on me... gotta clean up my grammar errors before anyone notices them. :run:
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On a more serious note, I am very compulsive about correcting my grammar errors because I've noticed hearing tend to be harsh about grammar and they view you as an illiterate if you make even a single grammar error. It's not unusual for me to correct my grammar 2 or 3 times after posting.

For once, I won't do this with this post.
 
deafskeptic said:
On a more serious note, I am very compulsive about correcting my grammar errors because I've noticed hearing tend to be harsh about grammar and they view you as an illiterate if you make even a single grammar error.
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I'm the same way but in my case, it's due to my 7th and 11th grade Honors English teachers who told me "Sloppy writing is indicative of a sloppy mind" and "If you can't write anything that is worth reading, don't write anything at all."

It's funny how I can still hear their voices after 20+ years. :shock:
 
naisho said:
Is daredevel not apart of the "acquired" crew?
I went through the posts on "What kind of a world you grew up in" and here, from the limited knowledge I gathered from them..

Correct me if I'm wrong:
She stated having zilch experience with sign while orally trouncing past her doctor's expectations through mainstream schooling.

From personal opinion, I find that her usage of written English on this forum had always met or exceeded my subconscious "Nazi" checkpoint, she's hardly ever as even gotten a eyebrow twitch from me yet.
Unless there is something that I'm not catching..
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Daredevil was born deaf, if I am not mistaken. Since she had her hearing loss from birth, and was exposed to early lanuage, she could not have accessed completely the spoken language around her from the time of birth. Even after being aided, the child has a period of adjustment to learning sounds as language. Even is she was able to begin the acquisition process at say, the age of 2, there are still gaps in information that the child is able to get peripherally from birth. Peripheral, passive exposure is the biggest factor in acquiring language.

Her great use of English is just illustrates my point. That even though it may be a deaf person's only language, it doesn't mean they use it to fluency. That is what distinguishes her use from the use of a native speaker.
 
shel90 said:
I am not sure if I suffer grammatical errors but I do know that I lack in creativiness with the use of vocabulary. I always scored below grade level when it came to vocabulary on the standardized tests. Knowing that, that was one of the many reasons for not going to law school. I had no confidence in being able to write briefs and memos required by lawyers due to my low vocabulary usage from not having full access to English growing up.
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Yes. There you go. That is something else that is looked at when assessing language development. The ability to play with language, and to use the vocabulary in new and creative ways. That is the hallmark of a native speaker. You will also notice that native ASL users exhibit that creativity in their use of a visual language the same way that native speakers of an oral language do.
 
deafskeptic said:
On a more serious note, I am very compulsive about correcting my grammar errors because I've noticed hearing tend to be harsh about grammar and they view you as an illiterate if you make even a single grammar error. It's not unusual for me to correct my grammar 2 or 3 times after posting.

For once, I won't do this with this post.
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I hope I haven't made anyone self conscious about their writing by pointing out how I can tell the difference between a native fluency and a learned mastery of English. I sure didn't intend to.

There is a big difference between me noticing little things that clue me in, because I am trained to see these things as cultural and linguistic differences based on inadequacies of the language model a deaf child was provided, and someone reading these errors on say a job application. I realize that it is not a sign of intelligence, capability, or even level of education, and is nothing more than a developmental gap produced by the child's environment. That is why I don't even mention it most of the time, and why I asked Jiro's permission before using him as an example. Someone not familiar with the linguistic differences and the gaps produced by an oral environment would see it as a deficiency. It is also why, when assessing a child's (or adult's) language development and proficiency, we have to look beyond simply the way they speak to the very environment they were raised in or educated in. If I see these errors in one of my student's writing, the first question I ask is, "How were you educated?" If they say orally, I know that environment, and not lack of English knowlege, is responsible. I also know what is needed to remediate the problems, and that the problems will always likely be there to some extent, and therefore will recommend that a tutor be employed to read over any papers or assignments they turn it to help them correct grammar and syntax and add some creativity to their writing.
 
jillio said:
Daredevil was born deaf, if I am not mistaken. Since she had her hearing loss from birth, and was exposed to early lanuage, she could not have accessed completely the spoken language around her from the time of birth. Even after being aided, the child has a period of adjustment to learning sounds as language. Even is she was able to begin the acquisition process at say, the age of 2, there are still gaps in information that the child is able to get peripherally from birth. Peripheral, passive exposure is the biggest factor in acquiring language.

Her great use of English is just illustrates my point. That even though it may be a deaf person's only language, it doesn't mean they use it to fluency. That is what distinguishes her use from the use of a native speaker.
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Yes, I was born deaf. I was definitely "delayed" in terms of spoken language since the doctor didn't diagnose me as profoundly deaf until 18 months old. (Several months before, they made a mistake and diagnosed me with a mild loss, but my mom knew it was more since I couldn't hear a thing.) At the point of 18 months, all I said was Papa, yea and no. Later on, I also made up words to define a specific thing. (e.g. ~Maduga instead of McDonald's). So I was definitely delayed.
 
jillio said:
I hope I haven't made anyone self conscious about their writing by pointing out how I can tell the difference between a native fluency and a learned mastery of English. I sure didn't intend to.

There is a big difference between me noticing little things that clue me in, because I am trained to see these things as cultural and linguistic differences based on inadequacies of the language model a deaf child was provided, and someone reading these errors on say a job application. I realize that it is not a sign of intelligence, capability, or even level of education, and is nothing more than a developmental gap produced by the child's environment. That is why I don't even mention it most of the time, and why I asked Jiro's permission before using him as an example. Someone not familiar with the linguistic differences and the gaps produced by an oral environment would see it as a deficiency. It is also why, when assessing a child's (or adult's) language development and proficiency, we have to look beyond simply the way they speak to the very environment they were raised in or educated in. If I see these errors in one of my student's writing, the first question I ask is, "How were you educated?" If they say orally, I know that environment, and not lack of English knowlege, is responsible. I also know what is needed to remediate the problems, and that the problems will always likely be there to some extent, and therefore will recommend that a tutor be employed to read over any papers or assignments they turn it to help them correct grammar and syntax and add some creativity to their writing.
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You haven't made me feel self conscious and I didn't have you in mind when I said that about most hearing. Most hearing are not aware of the delays in deaf children so they view them as having low intelligence or worse.

My father's view toward one of my friends is a perfect example. She is a big fan of Anime and a native user of ASL (she came from a deaf family) and my father had a dim view of her intelligence because she's more fluent in ASL and Japanese than in English. He also has a dim view of anyone who likes to read comics.
 
Hmm, that makes more sense now. I suppose we are now at the climax of this acquisition-learned concept.

A lot of deafies here have came up to me saying that my use of english is far superior than theirs; questioning if I am hearing because I don't write or make mistakes that resembles common deafness. However sometimes when it comes to orally pronouncing professional level vocabulary, this is where it makes it appear that I have some difference of recognition with those words compared to hearing peers. Although this must be of a different argument in this topic, we are not learning words such as Munchhausen or Aphrodisiac at a young age but I do have trouble pronouncing them the first few times I try them out. It then takes practice until I pass the hearing checkpoint.

Here's the catch in my own case: It is still unknown to date whether I was born hearing or deaf. My parents told me the doctors did not catch it during childbirth, they themselves did not catch it until I was 3+ years old. The telephone rang, I picked it up and put it on my right ear. My father was sitting next to me at that time, and put it on my left. I then put it back on the initial right. From then I think I was taken to the audiologist and discovered to have hearing loss. Although this is all of the past, as it does not matter anymore.

I have severe/profound deafness in one ear, with a high volume of speech discrimination. HA's don't help if I can't understand, just amplification of noise. The other I used to have low/moderate loss. I could hear in one ear just as well as a normal person but over time (transition from end of elementary to high school) I began lots of natural deterioration in hearing to the point that I gradually required a hearing aid to help understand.
They still do not know the cause of my personal problem, although I have been theorized that it was related to German measles back from the 80s, something to do with spiking a high fever at a young age.

I guess my case may be really "experimental" or an exception to this thing about deaf people acquiring/learning.




You dudes shouldn't need to worry about the Nazi in some of us, I think everyone has one inside. The difference between all of us is the calibration of our "Grammar Nazi" sensitivity. That little man standing there letting language pass the STOP checkpoint sign varies.

However I do tend to think that the hearing tend to have harsher conditions for filtering through text.
This is probably why we see more hearing rant about deaf usage of language compared to a deaf ranting on it.
Not to say there isn't any deaf that do complain - I am sure there are exceptions. Just that I am playing by majority of society aspect; just as Shel describing deafies getting discriminated on jobs based on this thing.
 
Daredevel7 said:
Yes, I was born deaf. I was definitely "delayed" in terms of spoken language since the doctor didn't diagnose me as profoundly deaf until 18 months old. (Several months before, they made a mistake and diagnosed me with a mild loss, but my mom knew it was more since I couldn't hear a thing.) At the point of 18 months, all I said was Papa, yea and no. Later on, I also made up words to define a specific thing. (e.g. ~Maduga instead of McDonald's). So I was definitely delayed.
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I thought I remembered your background correctly, lol. This is one of the reasons that early detection is important. The newborn screenings are great at letting parents know that there is likely to be a hearing loss. The problem still remains, however, that even with early screeing and fitting of amplification, we cannot get defininitive test results until a child is older. For instance, we may know that amplification allows for perception of a sound in an infant, but we will not know for quite some time if the infant can discriminate that sound. Discrimination is necessary for passive acquisition. That is another reason why my bias is toward using sign from the moment of suspected hearing loss, even if the child is aided very early. We still don't know what they can discriminate even with increased sound perception until they are old enough to respond to testing.
 
Daredevel7 said:
. Later on, I also made up words to define a specific thing. (e.g. ~Maduga instead of McDonald's). So I was definitely delayed.
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I've done the same thing. I remember one girl in fourth grade who moved from India to the USA. I never got her name and it sounded like Miridula or something like that so I named one of my characters that. One of my WoW characters has that name.

I also remember that I never got the name of Samantha's daugther on Bewitched. Although my sister tried to teach me the name, I never could pronounce it. I wasn't sure how to spell it ether. After some experminting, I decided it must be Takmiaka evem though it didn't quite sound right. I thought that sounded like a good name for a witch. The correct name is of course Tabitha.
 
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