America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta

[Jiro]

No one is forced to cheat.

If you want your kids taught by hypocrites who lie, cheat, and break the law for money, then that's your choice, of course. Be careful though--what else are they lying about? What other rules are they breaking?

don't be naive

 

[jillio]

right. we're not talking about a "few" teachers & principals who cheated. This was big. Focus on culprit, not cheaters. In this case - I'm not blaming teachers and principals who resorted to desperate measure to save their schools for the sake of students. It's better than losing entire school and having kids to be relocated so far away.

Agreed. People need to look at the big picture, and get off their judgemental thrones. An incident of this nature is indication that something is broken within the system. Fix what is causing the problem. Anything else is nothing more than putting a band aid on a cut needing stitches.

 

[saywhatkid]

Agreed. People need to look at the big picture, and get off their judgemental thrones.

If that includes me, so be it.

Why is there such an uproar if this was a "morally correct" decision?

 

[Reba]

Then don't send your children to that school.

I pity the ones who do get sent to that school.

I for one, am not going to pass judegement on these teachers so quickly, knowing what I do about the state of educational funding today.

What does it matter about funding? Either a person is trustworthy or not. If teachers can't be trusted in one area, how can they be trusted in another? They've already put themselves above the law for this. They've taught the kids that you only obey the law when it fits your desires. If you don't agree with a law, just break it. Yes, that's a wonderful life lesson for the students.

Schools that serve the most needy students are being closed right and left because of the concept of "teaching to the test". Teaching to the test is not teaching, and memorization is not learning.

I don't support teaching for tests. I also don't support cheating. That's not a solution.

Trite as it may seem, two wrongs still don't make a right.

Kids know that adults are not infallible. It is only adults who fool themselves into believing that kids think adults are infallible. Kids are also capable of determining the moral grey areas in a situation, given the opportunity to do so.

How are kids supposed to make moral determinations when they're not given any guidelines or good examples? What are they taught? Sometimes it's OK to cheat?

 

[jillio]

I pity the ones who do get sent to that school.


What does it matter about funding? Either a person is trustworthy or not. If teachers can't be trusted in one area, how can they be trusted in another? They've already put themselves above the law for this. They've taught the kids that you only obey the law when it fits your desires. If you don't agree with a law, just break it. Yes, that's a wonderful life lesson for the students.


I don't support teaching for tests. I also don't support cheating. That's not a solution.

Trite as it may seem, two wrongs still don't make a right.


How are kids supposed to make moral determinations when they're not given any guidelines or good examples? What are they taught? Sometimes it's OK to cheat?

Yeah, I pity the ones that get sent to that school as well. They are the ones that are suffering the most under NCLB. The funding of schools most in need of funding are always the ones cut. What kind of a lesson is that to teach kids? The well to do suburban schools are the only ones that deserve funding? Forget about the poor, urban schools and the students with parents falling into the lower SES categories? You don't matter? We only want to help educate the privileged kids? You already have very little, so we will just take that away, too? And any other number of social statements that are made through the likes of NCLB and teaching to the test.

 

[Reba]

Yeah, people can't see the big picture, because they are so hung up on some sense of morality.

"Some sense of morality." What? The big picture doesn't include a sense of morality? Are teachers amoral? Do they put $$$ before morals?

Well, the truth is out then. No more pretense.

Teachers are human. They make mistakes. Kids understand that. Evidently, the adults have trouble understanding that humans are not infallible, but the kids have already got it.

Do the kids understand that with mistakes come grave consequences? If the teachers aren't punished, the kids will learn that mistakes can be made with no consequences resulting.

The kid says, "If I cheat on a test, I'll be punished. If a teacher cheats on a test, there is no punishment."

 

[jillio]

"Some sense of morality." What? The big picture doesn't include a sense of morality? Are teachers amoral? Do they put $$$ before morals?

Well, the truth is out then. No more pretense.


Do the kids understand that with mistakes come grave consequences? If the teachers aren't punished, the kids will learn that mistakes can be made with no consequences resulting.

The kid says, "If I cheat on a test, I'll be punished. If a teacher cheats on a test, there is no punishment."

Yes, most kids understand that there are consequences to all behaviors. That is why they engage in some behaviors, and stop engaging in other behaviors. They are also capable of determining mitigating circumstances affecting behavior, and to take those in account prior to making so harsh a judgement as you have made. I guess they learn it, and then in some cases, they forget it. It is not as black and white as you attempt to paint it. In fact, with the attitude you have taken in your posts, I know several children in grammar school that would score higher on Kohlberg's test of moral development that you would.

 

[Reba]

Yeah, I pity the ones that get sent to that school as well. They are the ones that are suffering the most under NCLB. The funding of schools most in need of funding are always the ones cut. What kind of a lesson is that to teach kids? The well to do suburban schools are the only ones that deserve funding? Forget about the poor, urban schools and the students with parents falling into the lower SES categories? You don't matter? We only want to help educate the privileged kids? You already have very little, so we will just take that away, too? And any other number of social statements that are made through the likes of NCLB and teaching to the test.

The social statement that I see you making is that the teachers of poor urban schools are more like to cheat. The only way that poor urban people can succeed is if they cheat. That's a horrible statement to make.

BTW, the suburban schools teach to the test, too.

 

[jillio]

The social statement that I see you making is that the teachers of poor urban schools are more like to cheat. The only way that poor urban people can succeed is if they cheat. That's a horrible statement to make.

BTW, the suburban schools teach to the test, too.

That isn't what I am saying, nor have I said that in any way, shape, or form. But it doesn't surprise me that you would interpret it that way.:roll:

 

[Reba]

Yes, most kids understand that there are consequences to all behaviors. That is why they engage in some behaviors, and stop engaging in other behaviors. They are also capable of determining mitigating circumstances affecting behavior, and to take those in account prior to making so harsh a judgement as you have made. I guess they learn it, and then in some cases, they forget it. It is not as black and white as you attempt to paint it.

So, if businessmen cheat on taxes, that's OK, too? They also have mitigating circumstances. Maybe we're too harsh on tax cheats. After all, if they didn't cheat on the taxes, they would have to lay off workers, or deprive their children of necessities.

People who lie and cheat always have excuses--oops, I mean mitigating circumstances.

In fact, with the attitude you have taken in your posts, I know several children in grammar school that would score higher on Kohlberg's test of moral development that you would.

Of course, you meant that in a nice way, not a personal attack.

 

[Reba]

"One of the most troubling aspects of the Atlanta cheating scandal, says the report, is that the district repeatedly refused to properly investigate or take responsibility for the cheating. Moreover, the central office told some principals not to cooperate with investigators. In one case, an administrator instructed employees to tell investigators to "go to hell." When teachers tried to alert authorities, they were labeled "disgruntled." One principal opened an ethics investigation against a whistle-blower."

 

[Reba]

"In response to cheating scandals, some states and school districts have instituted tougher test-auditing standards, employing software that analyzes erasure rates and patterns."

So, more expenses for the schools.

 

[Reba]

"And that’s what ought to alarm us," adds Ms. Downey, "that these professionals ultimately felt their students could not even pass basic competency tests, despite targeted school improvement plans, proven reforms, and state-of-the-art teacher training."

It also means that kids with falsified passing grades were promoted to the next grade without being ready. That's a disservice to the students. How can any teacher say that they cared about their students when they did that?

 

[jillio]

So, if businessmen cheat on taxes, that's OK, too? They also have mitigating circumstances. Maybe we're too harsh on tax cheats. After all, if they didn't cheat on the taxes, they would have to lay off workers, or deprive their children of necessities.

People who lie and cheat always have excuses--oops, I mean mitigating circumstances.



Of course, you meant that in a nice way, not a personal attack.

What are their mitigating circumstances? Not enough tax breaks? Want a bigger bottom line? Come on, Reba, even you are not that naive.

Wasn't meant to be nice or not nice. It was an observation. No judgement attached to it one way or the other.

 

[jillio]

"And that’s what ought to alarm us," adds Ms. Downey, "that these professionals ultimately felt their students could not even pass basic competency tests, despite targeted school improvement plans, proven reforms, and state-of-the-art teacher training."

It also means that kids with falsified passing grades were promoted to the next grade without being ready. That's a disservice to the students. How can any teacher say that they cared about their students when they did that?

Yeah, your quote comes from someone who sounds as if they think the same way the politicians did when NCLB was instituted.

Who wants to bet she hasn't been in a classroom, and especially not a classroom in one of the poorer schools, for many years?

 

[Reba]

What are their mitigating circumstances? Not enough tax breaks? Want a bigger bottom line? Come on, Reba, even you are not that naive.

They can justify their cheating as lamely as the teachers can.

Wasn't meant to be nice or not nice. It was an observation. No judgement attached to it one way or the other.

Oh, no, you would never judge another person, and your observations are made only to benefit others.

 

[Reba]

Yeah, your quote comes from someone who sounds as if they think the same way the politicians did when NCLB was instituted.

Who wants to bet she hasn't been in a classroom, and especially not a classroom in one of the poorer schools, for many years?

Are you denying that the students were hurt by this wide-spread cheating?

 

[Beowulf]

Are you denying that the students were hurt by this wide-spread cheating?

Not as much as they were hurt by NCLB. Imagine if there was no cheating going on. Who would be hurt the most?

 

[dogmom]

I think a lot of people are hurt by this behavior - the kids, the parents and yes, the teachers. I don't agree with the cheating; I also really disagree with NCLB.
The problem is this: who do we punish? punishing the teachers does nothing to change the educational circumstances we have today, especially in many poor or urban areas. Punishing the schools and the district is reinforcing for those who do the punishing but where does it end?
consider: how are things connected that led to this happening? where does the fear come from and how can we stop it?

 

[darkdog]

Obviously, you are not an educator and have no inside knowledge regarding education.

You make way too many assumptions. You might wanna be more careful about that.

Why do conservatives have such difficulty with apply the word "all" to everything?

Hmm...

The conservative solution of throwing them all in prison certainly isn't going to solve anything.

I was careful to not say throw them all in prison. I wrote "For some of more egregious offenses, such as retaliating against whistle-blowers and obstructing justice, I say charge them and throw them in prison." I said that because those things are actually illegal.

Why do leftists have such difficulty with applying the word "all" to everything?