America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta

The problem is not from a particular act of Congress. It is a reflection of our times. Kids want to sit and watch TV, play X-Box, surf the 'net. They don't have parents at home during the afternoon. People try to get by with little or no effort.

Think about traffic laws. When you are on the Interstate, try driving exactly the speed limit. Count the cars you pass. Count the cars that pass you. Sit at a busy intersection and watch when the light turns red. How many cars go through? It is about respect for authority. Anarchy has taking a firm grip on the people of our country. The only way we get everyone to obey traffic laws is to maybe quadruple the police force presence.

Back to the school thing; class sizes continue to grow. Teachers demand higher salaries. K-12 education is nearly half of the state budget. When they send their pleas for more money, we vote. No matter the outcome, they will be back within 2 years asking for more. Why is this? Who polices the way these schools spend? Sure seems like the students get less learning for the money in the year 2011 than I did in 1970's. When did more money buy a better education?
 
I mean disciplined as laid out by their particular school board in addressing these matters.
In your opinion, what do you think would be a fair way of disciplining the teachers?
 
In your opinion, what do you think would be a fair way of disciplining the teachers?

In my opinion, they should be terminated, and their license to teach revoked.
 
What was the cause of the initial downhill slide before NCLB?

Apathy by the parents and a take over of education by the government.

Change both of these and the educational system will be "up-up-and-away".
 
The problem is not from a particular act of Congress. It is a reflection of our times. Kids want to sit and watch TV, play X-Box, surf the 'net. They don't have parents at home during the afternoon. People try to get by with little or no effort.

Think about traffic laws. When you are on the Interstate, try driving exactly the speed limit. Count the cars you pass. Count the cars that pass you. Sit at a busy intersection and watch when the light turns red. How many cars go through? It is about respect for authority. Anarchy has taking a firm grip on the people of our country. The only way we get everyone to obey traffic laws is to maybe quadruple the police force presence.

Back to the school thing; class sizes continue to grow. Teachers demand higher salaries. K-12 education is nearly half of the state budget. When they send their pleas for more money, we vote. No matter the outcome, they will be back within 2 years asking for more. Why is this? Who polices the way these schools spend? Sure seems like the students get less learning for the money in the year 2011 than I did in 1970's. When did more money buy a better education?

While all of this could be true, NCLB also is the mechanism that makes funding dependent upon test scores, thereby penalizing the very schools that need the funding the most.
 
In your opinion, what do you think would be a fair way of disciplining the teachers?

I have already stated that: it should be left to the school board that governs these matters. They will have access to the complete teaching records for these people.

It could very well be that these are dedicated teachers who were afraid that yet another inner city school would be closed as a result of NCLB and the reversed funding application that results. They made a mistake. But if it was to prevent closure of yet another school, it is understandable why they did what they did.
 
Apathy by the parents and a take over of education by the government.

Change both of these and the educational system will be "up-up-and-away".

Correct. Parents do not get involved until they perceive that an educator has done something "wrong". Then they are all over the "involved" part.
 
I have already stated that: it should be left to the school board that governs these matters. They will have access to the complete teaching records for these people.

It could very well be that these are dedicated teachers who were afraid that yet another inner city school would be closed as a result of NCLB and the reversed funding application that results. They made a mistake. But if it was to prevent closure of yet another school, it is understandable why they did what they did.

Sadly, these teachers taught those kids that cheating is acceptable under certain circumstances. For the teachers, they want to keep their jobs. For the kids, they will justify cheating to keep their Ipods. The lesson here is not pretty. Putting blame on anyone's shoulders other than the people involved is a bit skittish. Think of the mom that steals salami to feed her kids. She wants to take care of them, but when they know she steals meat, what do they learn?
 
Well for one, I would like to see the rigorous discipline return to the schools. Students would learn to not only respect authority, but to have a reverent fear of that authority. This translates into more people becoming productive law-abiding citizens. Those who chronically misbehave were either expelled or were sent to Job Corps (which I am told is a lot like juvy).

Once students begin to respect their teachers and school staff, we will begin to have fewer class room disruptions thus more students will begin to learn more.


I would also like to see year-round schooling. Why? Because there are very few real world jobs and occupations out there that will give you a three month vacation. I understand that our current academic calendar was set up primarily to accommodate farmers who needed their children help with the summer harvesting. Plus, the economy is so bad, many business are no longer hiring summer help for students. This leaves many students vegging out on the couch or on the computer playing video games. They will likely not retain much of what they learned and much of the first semester is spent reviewing skills from the previous year - especially when it comes to multi-step skills and processes such as long division and multiplication. Many parents simply don't help their kids on these skills in the summer and they just allow their kids to do whatever. Then you have the ESL learners who may have 'mastered' a level of English proficiency at school, but they return to an all Spanish-speaking environment for those three months they are out of school and when they return they have forgotten a lot of the English vocabulary they have learned simply because they have not used it in three months.

If we had year-round schooling, a lot of these issues would be resolved. Instead of being out for a complete three months, they would be out for only 2-3 weeks at most and the year would be broken into 'quarters' with Christmas vacation being at the end of the 4th quarter and summer vacation being at the end of the 2nd quarter. Students would also be out for a week at the end of the 1st and 3rd quarters. There would be far less need to review previous skills after a three month break, students would be retaining more information and skills and would build on them better and more quickly.

Students should also be grouped together based upon mastered skill sets rather than age. Instead of having K-12 grade, we would have a 'Year one group' and a 'Year two group' and so on. Once a student has mastered a certain skill set and can show it on an annual 'promotions/review exam' then they would be promoted from 'Year one' to 'Year two'. This exam should be given at the end of the 2nd quarter before the two week summer holiday. When they are promoted, they will begin with using the skills they have mastered and will begin building on those skills almost immediately. If a student cannot show he/she has mastered these skills, they are retained in their current group and will be given a second 'promotions/review exam' at the end of the 4th quarter before the two week Christmas holiday. If they pass they will be promoted as normal and begin building on those skill sets almost immediately when they are placed in 'year two', they will be given the regular promotions/review exams at the end of the 2nd quarter with the other students. With this kind of system, kids who are at the same learning level will be learning together. Those who need remediation won't be remediated for an entire year and those who are advanced will advance as needed. Also, students may be in a class with various ages ranging from 5-7 and from 6-8 for example. All the students in the same group will be working on the same skill sets instead of having students of various skill sets but of the same age trying to slog their way through a curriculum together, which is difficult at best for educators as well as students.

I would also like to see athletic and extracurricular activities taking a back seat to education. This doesn't mean I don't support school sports and clubs, but I just wish less importance would be placed on it. For example, instead of having one class period designated for athletics, why not assign that class period for a mandatory study all and all athletics and extra-curriculars take place AFTER school, or at least outside of school 'learning hours'. The gymnasiums, fields, and tracks would be used strictly for structured physical education classes during school learning hours, meaning EVERY student regardless of whether or not they are on an athletic team MUST take a physical education course each semester. This will give the coaches something to do during the day besides sitting in their offices and shooting the breeze with each other. Athletic practices can take place BEFORE or AFTER school, but not during school. This means class schedules and availability will no longer be dictated by ones extra-curricular activities, because that block will now be used for study hall. This means students who need help on homework will have access to it, and those who need to work on projects will no longer have the excuse of 'not having time' to do it.

I think teachers pay should not be based on NCLB criteria but rather as any other job would be - based on work performance. Teachers are reviewed annually in the class room, if they do well teaching the students, then they will be paid well. Those idiots on the board of education mean well but they have no idea of what really goes on in a class room. They don't realize that in a school district that is 52% Hispanic and many are low proficiency in English or do not speak English at all, the district is bound to have low test scores if the standardized tests are given in *gasp!* English! This is why it is crucial to place students together based upon mastered skill sets, this includes English reading,writing, and speaking proficiency. Once the ESL learners are proficient in English, then we can begin teaching them the skill sets in other areas such as math, science, history, and so forth. Remember, language is the foundation for all other learning!

I know this is lengthy, but it's just my long-winded opinion of things. So in short here's what I would like to see:
1. The return of rigorous discipline to the classrooms.
2. A year round school year.
3. Group students together based upon mastered skill sets rather than by age or grade level.
 
Sadly, these teachers taught those kids that cheating is acceptable under certain circumstances. For the teachers, they want to keep their jobs. For the kids, they will justify cheating to keep their Ipods. The lesson here is not pretty. Putting blame on anyone's shoulders other than the people involved is a bit skittish. Think of the mom that steals salami to feed her kids. She wants to take care of them, but when they know she steals meat, what do they learn?

I agree that the message that they have given children is not exactly the message we should be teaching, but the fact is that things are rarely black and white in real life.

Unfortuanately, they learn that sometimes society places a single mother in the position that the only way to survive is to steal. Sad message for a young kid to learn, isn't it?
 
Well for one, I would like to see the rigorous discipline return to the schools. Students would learn to not only respect authority, but to have a reverent fear of that authority. This translates into more people becoming productive law-abiding citizens. Those who chronically misbehave were either expelled or were sent to Job Corps (which I am told is a lot like juvy).

Actually, a lot of student misbehavior has to do with family behavior. Plus, expelling students only leads to more problems for the community (i.e. increased crime rate). Expulsion should be reserved for the most serious cases and intervention should be utilitized for all other problem students. You never know if a student is acting out because he is being or was abused by a family member, and that student deserves to have intervention.
 
I have already stated that: it should be left to the school board that governs these matters. They will have access to the complete teaching records for these people.
That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on this. If it does, I believe this will be the first time that you haven't had an opinion on something.

It could very well be that these are dedicated teachers who were afraid that yet another inner city school would be closed as a result of NCLB and the reversed funding application that results. They made a mistake. But if it was to prevent closure of yet another school, it is understandable why they did what they did.
Hmm . . . dedicated teachers who can't be trusted. I don't think I'd want them teaching in my kids' school.

Yes, they made a mistake (more than once). They cheated and lied, and broke the law. They set a horrible example for the children who looked up to them as role models. They were hypocrites who taught their students that cheating was wrong.
 
Actually, a lot of student misbehavior has to do with family behavior. Plus, expelling students only leads to more problems for the community (i.e. increased crime rate). Expulsion should be reserved for the most serious cases and intervention should be utilitized for all other problem students. You never know if a student is acting out because he is being or was abused by a family member, and that student deserves to have intervention.

True, that.
 
But what does that do about the teachers and principals who cheated? That's what I'm asking. What should be done with the teachers and principals who cheated?

with NCBL... they're forced to cheat or they'll lose $$$ which spells disaster for everybody including students and their parents.
 
That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on this. If it does, I believe this will be the first time that you haven't had an opinion on something.


Hmm . . . dedicated teachers who can't be trusted. I don't think I'd want them teaching in my kids' school.

Yes, they made a mistake (more than once). They cheated and lied, and broke the law. They set a horrible example for the children who looked up to them as role models. They were hypocrites who taught their students that cheating was wrong.

Then don't send your children to that school. I for one, am not going to pass judegement on these teachers so quickly, knowing what I do about the state of educational funding today. Schools that serve the most needy students are being closed right and left because of the concept of "teaching to the test". Teaching to the test is not teaching, and memorization is not learning.

Kids know that adults are not infallible. It is only adults who fool themselves into believing that kids think adults are infallible. Kids are also capable of determining the moral grey areas in a situation, given the opportunity to do so.
 
with NCBL... they're forced to cheat or they'll lose $$$ which spells disaster for everybody including students and their parents.

Yeah, people can't see the big picture, because they are so hung up on some sense of morality. Teachers are human. They make mistakes. Kids understand that. Evidently, the adults have trouble understanding that humans are not infallible, but the kids have already got it.
 
with NCBL... they're forced to cheat or they'll lose $$$ which spells disaster for everybody including students and their parents.
No one is forced to cheat.

If you want your kids taught by hypocrites who lie, cheat, and break the law for money, then that's your choice, of course. Be careful though--what else are they lying about? What other rules are they breaking? :hmm:
 
Yeah, people can't see the big picture, because they are so hung up on some sense of morality. Teachers are human. They make mistakes. Kids understand that. Evidently, the adults have trouble understanding that humans are not infallible, but the kids have already got it.
The sad part about this particular mistake is that it is one of the core lessons of school: do not cheat. I understand the pressure placed on inner city educators. I cannot endorse the options chosen by this group.
 
Yeah, people can't see the big picture, because they are so hung up on some sense of morality. Teachers are human. They make mistakes. Kids understand that. Evidently, the adults have trouble understanding that humans are not infallible, but the kids have already got it.

right. we're not talking about a "few" teachers & principals who cheated. This was big. Focus on culprit, not cheaters. In this case - I'm not blaming teachers and principals who resorted to desperate measure to save their schools for the sake of students. It's better than losing entire school and having kids to be relocated so far away.
 
No one is forced to cheat.

If you want your kids taught by hypocrites who lie, cheat, and break the law for money, then that's your choice, of course. Be careful though--what else are they lying about? What other rules are they breaking? :hmm:

And if the same school lost funding and had to close, who would the blame go to? The teachers.

Just because they were dishonest in regard to test scores does not mean that they have been dishonest in any other instance. You seem to think that one instance of poor judgement makes someone quilty of numerous other things of which they have not even been accused. And yet you say you are not judgemental.:hmm:
 
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