A Violation of Human Rights Re: Forcing A Deaf Child to Wear CI

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

I see this too. People argue that a deaf child shouldn't be forced to use his or her 'weakest sense' in an environment that's not immersive to attain language. I agree with this wholeheartedly!

But if you describe an approach that significantly changes these variables (sending a child to a deaf school instead of mainstreaming, wearing an HA or CI that provides adequate access to sound, providing intensive language learning to a whole family instead of isolating a child) to address the 'problems' frequently mentioned (from the struggle to build oral skills without auditory input and the intensive speech drills, to discovering ASL only as adults, etc.), some of those same people who complain about the brutality and ineffectuality of the way they were raised get offended as though you are insulting the 'wonderful' practice that was their oral education, or dismissing the achievements they made despite the difficulties inherent in past approaches, when in fact you are taking their input very seriously and acting on it.

What if they don't want the CI or any other hearing apparatus? Why is that the only answer?

Hint: it is not the only answer.

we aren't saying it is the only choice, we are saying that it is a very different situation from being isolated in the mainstream, struggling to lipread.

 

[GrendelQ]

I know... Gee, I wonder why many "choose" to be orals.... Oh yeah, their environment. Why didnt I think of that!

Not arguing that. But if someone says that you need to listen to the deaf, you do, and find the majority voice is not of your liking, well, you have two choices in the collectivist/individualist world you describe.

As you know, if you are a collectivist, you have a responsibility to sacrifice your minority view or ideology and support the majority -- you assume the id of that majority entity. Hello oral deafness. If you are an individualist, you have a responsibility to develop your own individual goals, initiative and achievement and although you must cooperate, there's no need to conform to the society around you as collectivists do. You can be oral deaf, as are the majority of deaf in the US, you can choose a signed aor bilingual approach or you can forge some other path of your making.

 

[Beowulf]

*snickering*
The majority of the deaf is oral? Not when we gather. Hello!

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

I know... Gee, I wonder why many "choose" to be orals.... Oh yeah, their environment. Why didnt I think of that!

there are Deaf people who chose to implant their children and send them to oral schools. I also know deaf adults who work at oral schools (and yes, they know sign).

and yes, the majority of those who are deaf are oral and do not id as Deaf.

 

[Daredevel7]

I can see why FJ does not understand. Oralism (which is heavily based on speechreading, pre-CI days) is looked at with disgust in this forum and yet at the same time, the same people are bragging about how they or people they know are expert speechreaders and how they managed to do well without a CI (and a few without using ASL)

Sort of like... "God I hated boarding school, I would never put my child in boarding school." *then in another thread* "My school education has really helped me get far in my career." Sorta gives an initial "WTF? but but.."

However, I think what FJ fails to understand is simply this: It's hard and unnecessary to learn a language from speechreading only. It is usually supplemented with a lot of reading anyway. You have to have a good base of vocabulary in order to do correct or even practice speechreading in the first place. Deaf people have no problem relying on speechreading if they are good at it, but they have a problem relying on it for learning your first language.

 

[Beowulf]

Wirelessly posted



there are Deaf people who chose to implant their children and send them to oral schools. I also know deaf adults who work at oral schools (and yes, they know sign).

and yes, the majority of those who are deaf are oral and do not id as Deaf.

Grrrr, always a few rats, eh? Go on, sic 'em, sic 'em!

 

[Daredevel7]

Wirelessly posted



there are Deaf people who chose to implant their children and send them to oral schools. I also know deaf adults who work at oral schools (and yes, they know sign).

and yes, the majority of those who are deaf are oral and do not id as Deaf.

It doesn't matter. Think about it, even if that was proven true, a lot of people here are going to believe that oral peeps don't know better because they were raised in rampant audism and were brainwashed that way, etc etc.

 

[Frisky Feline]

It doesn't matter. Think about it, even if that was proven true, a lot of people here are going to believe that oral peeps don't know better because they were raised in rampant audism and were brainwashed that way, etc etc.

nice going.

 

[AlleyCat]

There are many deaf with many perspectives about what is most beneficial. Your view is not the most common. If all parents were to take the majority deaf perspective, as you seem to be advocating, we'd have an all-oral world. The parents such as those here on AD are outliers, not making decisions based on crowdsourcing the masses.

*snickering*
The majority of the deaf is oral? Not when we gather. Hello!

Grendel -- the bold -- where are you getting this from? It would appear to me that we're saying the opposite. Not once have I advocated for oral-only (or all-oral as you said), same as Shel, PFH, Jillio, etc. and nearly everyone that is early deafened.

 

[GrendelQ]

It doesn't matter. Think about it, even if that was proven true, a lot of people here are going to believe that oral peeps don't know better because they were raised in rampant audism and were brainwashed that way, etc etc.

True.

I didn't realize the demographics was a controversial issue, I thought that the historically oral majority was exactly what deaf culture has lobbied to overcome. I've seen very different population figures used, but have never come across a comparison or ASL deaf vs. oral deaf that skewed with ASL deaf as majority, always the other way, and usually pretty significantly.

So, when people here on AD say that hearing parents should listen to the deaf, what they don't realize is that we do. But we get word from a whole lot more deaf people (and deaf professionals) who support a mainstreamed education integrating an oral approach either fully or significantly than from those who advocate ASL as the primary language and educational approach.

I think we should be well informed by a broad representation of deaf, but we should be listening to our children, and determining what their needs are.

 

[posts from hell]

True.

I didn't realize the demographics was a controversial issue, I thought that the historically oral majority was exactly what deaf culture has lobbied to overcome. I've seen very different population figures used, but have never come across a comparison or ASL deaf vs. oral deaf that skewed with ASL deaf as majority, always the other way, and usually pretty significantly.

So, when people here on AD say that hearing parents should listen to the deaf, what they don't realize is that we do. But we get word from a whole lot more deaf people (and deaf professionals) who support a mainstreamed education integrating an oral approach either fully or significantly than from those who advocate ASL as the primary language and educational approach.

I think we should be well informed by a broad representation of deaf, but we should be listening to our children, and determining what their needs are.

It is not the "oral majority" that we're trying to overcome. Obviously you didnt understand my statement earlier.

 

[GrendelQ]

It is not the "oral majority" that we're trying to overcome. Obviously you didnt understand my statement earlier.

I wasn't referring to a statement you've made, I'm referring to general efforts by deaf culture activists towards eradicating what has been a historically oral majority in the deaf population -- via education, awareness, legislation, etc..

 

[Beowulf]

I wasn't referring to a statement you've made, I'm referring to general efforts by deaf culture activists towards eradicating what has been a historically oral majority in the deaf population -- via education, awareness, legislation, etc..

This is getting bizarre. So now we are "eradicating" the deaf majority?
Sigh. You really need to meditate more.

 

[GrendelQ]

This is getting bizarre. So now we are "eradicating" the deaf majority?
Sigh. You really need to meditate more.

What exactly are you trying to pick apart here? Would you prefer that the primacy of oral education and spoken language remain in place for the deaf instead?

Do you really think that "eradicating what has been a historically oral majority in the deaf population -- via education, awareness, legislation, etc.." equals eradicating the deaf?

 

[AlleyCat]

I'm thinking back to some statistics that have been stated. Not by any specific poster, but generally.

I can see where there would be such high numbers of "oral deaf". There's all the ones who don't learn sign and grow up orally, there's those that are late-deafened (or at least post-lingually deafened), and then there are those that could be like me but mis-interpreted.

I was never approached in school years by anyone wanting statistics on me. If I had, whether in person, or in a questionnaire, I could see how the questions could potentially go:

1) Did you learn to speak? Yes.
2) Did you speak to your classmates? Yes.
3) Were you set up with an IEP (TOD) Yes.
4) Did you have note-takers? Yes.
5) Did you have access to tutors, other help? Yes.
6) Do you wear HAs (Only HAs asked because CIs didn't exist then) Yes.
7) Do you use an FM system? No.
8) Did you learn ASL? Yes.
9) Did you use ASL with your classmates? No.

and so on ...

This could indicate that I'm a successful oral deaf student based on being able to speak, speak with classmates, read notes, not use an FM system, not use ASL with classmates, and so on. Nowhere, at any time, was I ever asked how difficult school was, self-esteem-wise. No mention of bullies picking on my speech, sign, and so on. This is why we, on this board, share many of the hellish moments we have. It boggles my mind that statistics are so valued and seen as the majority, when it isn't also addressed how difficult a time any of these students had in school. For all I know, I could be classified as part of that % of oral deaf, even though I'm absolutely not.

I see that my parents had the same line of reasoning as some of the hearing parents on this board. They were trying to do what was best for me. And that meant going with the majority of what they learned from doctors, research, whatnot. (Forums like these didn't exist then -- the internet didn't even exist then! ) I do commend parents who are trying to do what's best for their kids. But, again, why feedback from those who lived these school years are not valued I do not understand. Statistics don't paint the true picture.

 

[posts from hell]

I am working on finding an almost 250 year old article... That says exactly the same thing the Deaf are saying right now...

 

[Beowulf]

What exactly are you trying to pick apart here? Would you prefer that the primacy of oral education and spoken language remain in place for the deaf instead?

Do you really think that "eradicating what has been a historically oral majority in the deaf population -- via education, awareness, legislation, etc.." equals eradicating the deaf?

It depends upon presumptions. It is one to assume that the deaf majority are oral. It only seems that way because they are forced to be in certain situations.. When there is a large group of deaf together, I challenge you to find one who is oral. What is there to eradicate? There is no controversy among the deaf over this.

 

[Daredevel7]

It depends upon presumptions. It is one to assume that the deaf majority are oral. It only seems that way because they are forced to be in certain situations.. When there is a large group of deaf together, I challenge you to find one who is oral. What is there to eradicate? There is no controversy among the deaf over this.

huh??? really?

 

[AlleyCat]

huh??? really?

Out of curiosity, do you congregate often with oral deaf?

(Asking only because I don't know where you live or if your friends are deaf, etc.)

 

[Beowulf]

huh??? really?

Yep. You'd be hard pressed to find one just flapping lips.