A Violation of Human Rights Re: Forcing A Deaf Child to Wear CI

[jillio]

Wirelessly posted

so, again, she is claiming that a deaf child has access to spoken language without sound. So what is so wrong with oral only? She is saying it works great, even for those without sound, complete access auditorily to all the sounds of english would just be a cherry on top

Are you really as slow to comprehend as you appear? Or do you just look that way because you are trying to justify the unjustifiable. Admit it, you have been backed in a corner with logic and fact, and you are fighting desperately to find your way out. But you can't do it by twisting post and inventing meaning. Give it up before you start to look worse than you already do.

 

[jillio]

Social implications.... Social implications. There's endless stories of people being picked on, stuck in between worlds...

Amazing you havent learned empathy for this kind of crap.

Just wait. As her child gets older, and begins to experience these things, she will get a painful education. A CI isn't going to protect a child from that. Research has already found it so.

 

[jillio]

I see this too. People argue that a deaf child shouldn't be forced to use his or her 'weakest sense' in an environment that's not immersive to attain language. I agree with this wholeheartedly!

But if you describe an approach that significantly changes these variables (sending a child to a deaf school instead of mainstreaming, wearing an HA or CI that provides adequate access to sound, providing intensive language learning to a whole family instead of isolating a child) to address the 'problems' frequently mentioned (from the struggle to build oral skills without auditory input and the intensive speech drills, to discovering ASL only as adults, etc.), some of those same people who complain about the brutality and ineffectuality of the way they were raised get offended as though you are insulting the 'wonderful' practice that was their oral education, or dismissing the achievements they made despite the difficulties inherent in past approaches, when in fact you are taking their input very seriously and acting on it.

Still don't get it. There were several students with CIs at my son's Deaf school. They were no different than the deaf kids with HA.

 

[deafskeptic]

I think the heater is about to explode.

I think the boiler is about to go. Call the fire dept!

 

[GrendelQ]

That's what I thought you said. But like I have said before - you say it to a member of the deaf community, you also apply it to everyone in the deaf community.

Big difference in cultural values. You have your hearing world, we have our deaf world. Individualism vs Collectivism.

All deaf are borg? Not just my child?


Seriously, if FJ or Jillio or you or I make a decision for our children, we are not imposing limitations on anyone else. By sending my child to an ASL-based school, I'm not indicting someone else who chooses an AVT program.

 

[jillio]

Nothing to do with you, it's just the ignorance that I'm seeing in here. These people just keep getting all worked up that they would say anything to make a point.

It's sad, really.

After this much time, you would think the ignorance would have begun to lift.

But wait...they aren't here to learn what the deaf say is most beneficial, they are here to tell the deaf what is most beneficial! Same old, same old audism that has been rampant for centuries.

 

[jillio]

No, it definitely is NOT the only answer. I think there are multiple valid solutions for a hearing family with deaf child, the following are just 3 of the more common, no one of these is 'right' for every child:

1. Focus on English: Strengthen what people here have called the 'weak sense' (with HAs, CIs, etc) and provide a home and academic environment (mainstream or av/ao school) that bathes the child in fluent language using that sense (English) [ASL as a secondary language]
   
2. Focus on ASL: Provide intensive sign language immersion to the family and close contacts and a home and academic environment (bi-bi/ASL school) that bathes the child in fluent language (ASL or other sign) [English as a secondary language]
   
3. Bilingual: Provide intensive sign language immersion to the family and close contacts and a home and academic environment that bathes the child in fluent language [ASL and English concurrent] (if ASL is primary at home, then ao/av or mainstream school; if spoken language primary at home, then bi-bi/asl school) [this one is our choice ]

In a perfect world, all three could be optimal solutions for a child, with no gaps IF the CIs/ HAs do provide adequate access to sound, IF everyone in the home environment is or becomes a fluent language user as a model for that child, IF the appropriate school environment is available, and most important, IF the child's is comfortably and effectively using the chosen means of communication.

I've seen this 'perfect world' in place for every single one of these approaches. I've also seen some messed up situations, sadly, when a variable unexpectedly wallops the plan (if a signing child wants to speak/listen, if a child with CI doesn't want to or can't hear appropriately), if an extended family doesn't use ASL exclusively in proximity to a signing child at home and instead one fluent member interprets the 'important bits.' But I think people need to be flexible in working with these options and have the drive to let go of something that perhaps was, but isn't ideal and adapt to what actually works for a child when that happens, regardless of which "camp" you might have been in at the start.

Please define what "adequate access to sound" is.

 

[jillio]

All deaf are borg? Not just my child?


Seriously, if FJ or Jillio or you or I make a decision for our children, we are not imposing limitations on anyone else. By sending my child to an ASL-based school, I'm not indicting someone else who chooses an AVT program.

Then it would appear that you have no concern for deaf children other than your own. Perhaps that is where the difference lies.

As PFH put it: Individualism vs Collectivism.

 

[jillio]

You know, I find it amusing how people are professing that they know this and that. Honestly, most of these people have only been doing this for a few years and yet they feel qualified to provide plenty of unsolicited advice and criticisms toward the deaf communities. It's just like teaching someone a few signs and then they start correcting you. I think it's just uncalled for to have people come here and tell us what we can and cannot do, or worse... be pitied!

We don't come here to be treated like second class citizens.

Hell, I've been doing what I do for 25 years, and I still have to ask at times. These hearing parents accuse me of thinking I know it all, and the truth of the matter is, I know for a fact I don't know it all. But I sure as heck know more than someone who has been dealing with deaf issues for a couple of years! That is where I have the advantage. I know, after 25 years, there is still much for me to learn. They think, after 2 or 3 years, they already know all there is to know.

 

[GrendelQ]

We are talking about DEAF kids. The point is, they should not have to rely on assisted hearing or speechreading!!!!! GAWD!!!

I think that's exactly FJ's point.

 

[Banjo]

Hell, I've been doing what I do for 25 years, and I still have to ask at times. These hearing parents accuse me of thinking I know it all, and the truth of the matter is, I know for a fact I don't know it all. But I sure as heck know more than someone who has been dealing with deaf issues for a couple of years! That is where I have the advantage. I know, after 25 years, there is still much for me to learn. They think, after 2 or 3 years, they already know all there is to know.

Exactly. I have been deaf my whole life. I think I would know quite a bit about what it's like to be a deaf individual. People do not realize how many times I have to hear about this sort of nonsense coming from some parents over the years. Do I really have to take them seriously? No, and I don't.

 

[deafskeptic]

Exactly. I have been deaf my whole life. I think I would know quite a bit about what it's like to be a deaf individual. People do not realize how many times I have to hear about this sort of nonsense coming from some parents over the years. Do I really have to take them seriously? No, and I don't.

I have to deal with this with my Dad quite often. It does't seem to occur to him that some of his suggestions on how to deal with my deafness may not be the most practical idea or the most helpful idea.

 

[GrendelQ]

Then it would appear that you have no concern for deaf children other than your own. Perhaps that is where the difference lies.

As PFH put it: Individualism vs Collectivism.

I do, but I won't impose my beliefs on others -- I may have chosen a CI, bilingual ed, but I don't think you should have to do the same. I have more respect for others and their judgment than to think I somehow know better than any other parent what's best for all.

 

[GrendelQ]

Please define what "adequate access to sound" is.

Depends on the environment chosen. If sign immersive, no access to sound would be required.

 

[GrendelQ]

After this much time, you would think the ignorance would have begun to lift.

But wait...they aren't here to learn what the deaf say is most beneficial, they are here to tell the deaf what is most beneficial! Same old, same old audism that has been rampant for centuries.

There are many deaf with many perspectives about what is most beneficial. Your view is not the most common. If all parents were to take the majority deaf perspective, as you seem to be advocating, we'd have an all-oral world. The parents such as those here on AD are outliers, not making decisions based on crowdsourcing the masses.

 

[GrendelQ]

Still don't get it. There were several students with CIs at my son's Deaf school. They were no different than the deaf kids with HA.

There are significant differences in the needs of a child wearing an HA and a child wearing a CI, and many get down to a pretty granular level tailored to the individual child. Your school may not have been aware of or addressing this OR you were not privy to the specifics. I'd be very surprised if my child's school made the inner workings of our accommodations and issues available to the parents of her classmates with HAs, and we have only started to address the differentiation between addressing CI and HA in her educational environment.

 

[KarissaMann05]

Wirelessly posted

OK. Allow me to ask you guys.

If a child don't like weird sound, and he/she don't want his/her HAs/CIs on his/her ears, what is your solution?

 

[GrendelQ]

Wirelessly posted

OK. Allow me to ask you guys.

If a child don't like weird sound, and he/she don't want his/her HAs/CIs on his/her ears, what is your solution?

My child doesn't like her CIs on days when she has a bad cold and fever, sickness is not frequent for her, fortunately. Also, we've attended concerts (Dora!) and events where she didn't like the wall of sound. She takes them off and hands them to me, leaves them on and drops down the coil, or puts them in her drybox when she doesn't want to wear them. It's not a big deal.

 

[Beowulf]

There are many deaf with many perspectives about what is most beneficial. Your view is not the most common. If all parents were to take the majority deaf perspective, as you seem to be advocating, we'd have an all-oral world. The parents such as those here on AD are outliers, not making decisions based on crowdsourcing the masses.

 

[posts from hell]

I know... Gee, I wonder why many "choose" to be orals.... Oh yeah, their environment. Why didnt I think of that!