A Violation of Human Rights Re: Forcing A Deaf Child to Wear CI

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posts from hell said:
Sorry you guys feel that way. My pet peeve is stupid people. This person makes the other person (a senior citizen with a CI up in the frozen country) look intelligent.
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Nothing to do with you, it's just the ignorance that I'm seeing in here. These people just keep getting all worked up that they would say anything to make a point.

It's sad, really.
 
BecLak said:
So that it is clear: I had no HAs nor did I have CIs (because they weren't invented back then anyway). I also did not have any access to sign language either, expect body language and facial expressions. Before I started school, my mother would read me stories. I would watch her mouth, while looking at the words and pictures on the page. I soon figured out the connection between the mouth movements and the letters, and I got comprehension from the pictures. Later at age 7 I noticed there were some missing gaps in the way I understood I was speaking and the words on the page. eg: de was actually desk so I began to correct myself and my mother also corrected the way I spoke, not with oral therapy but just by correcting my speech as she did with my hearing brother and now with her hearing grandchildren. As I got better in spelling and grammar at school, my mastery of the spoken and written languages grew. So in short, I used every visual means other than sign language in itself to learn to speak and to master the English language. Yes, it was a lot of guess-work and a struggle with misunderstandings and I still have to process words like a Wheel of Fortune game, especially with strangers, but I have achieved mastery of both the spoken and written language in English. (btw, my db is clearly below the speech banana so I cannot hear speech) It is like processing into comprehension a totally foreign language that you never encountered before in your life, each and every day.
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I shared how I managed to learn spoken language without HAs and CIs, and it is like I put a match to gas! EXPLOSION!! :shock:
 
posts from hell said:
What if they don't want the CI or any other hearing apparatus? Why is that the only answer?

Hint: it is not the only answer.
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No, it definitely is NOT the only answer. I think there are multiple valid solutions for a hearing family with deaf child, the following are just 3 of the more common, no one of these is 'right' for every child:

  1. Focus on English: Strengthen what people here have called the 'weak sense' (with HAs, CIs, etc) and provide a home and academic environment (mainstream or av/ao school) that bathes the child in fluent language using that sense (English) [ASL as a secondary language]
  2. Focus on ASL: Provide intensive sign language immersion to the family and close contacts and a home and academic environment (bi-bi/ASL school) that bathes the child in fluent language (ASL or other sign) [English as a secondary language]
  3. Bilingual: Provide intensive sign language immersion to the family and close contacts and a home and academic environment that bathes the child in fluent language [ASL and English concurrent] (if ASL is primary at home, then ao/av or mainstream school; if spoken language primary at home, then bi-bi/asl school) [this one is our choice :)]
In a perfect world, all three could be optimal solutions for a child, with no gaps IF the CIs/ HAs do provide adequate access to sound, IF everyone in the home environment is or becomes a fluent language user as a model for that child, IF the appropriate school environment is available, and most important, IF the child's is comfortably and effectively using the chosen means of communication.

I've seen this 'perfect world' in place for every single one of these approaches. I've also seen some messed up situations, sadly, when a variable unexpectedly wallops the plan (if a signing child wants to speak/listen, if a child with CI doesn't want to or can't hear appropriately), if an extended family doesn't use ASL exclusively in proximity to a signing child at home and instead one fluent member interprets the 'important bits.' But I think people need to be flexible in working with these options and have the drive to let go of something that perhaps was, but isn't ideal and adapt to what actually works for a child when that happens, regardless of which "camp" you might have been in at the start.
 
BecLak said:
I shared how I managed to learn spoken language without HAs and CIs, and it is like I put a match to gas! EXPLOSION!! :shock:
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I know... It's amazing how the hearing people think the CI is end all. How many times do I need to tell them "I don't want it"?? "Here, here" "No.." "Whyyyyyyyy!!!! It makes everything easier!!!!" "uh, bcuz i am me this way"
 
You know, I find it amusing how people are professing that they know this and that. Honestly, most of these people have only been doing this for a few years and yet they feel qualified to provide plenty of unsolicited advice and criticisms toward the deaf communities. It's just like teaching someone a few signs and then they start correcting you. I think it's just uncalled for to have people come here and tell us what we can and cannot do, or worse... be pitied!

We don't come here to be treated like second class citizens.
 
yeah it applies to the history that has adjusted in an abnormal environment or something.

just mind me because it is just me.
 
GrendelQ said:
No, it definitely is NOT the only answer. I think there are multiple valid solutions for a hearing family with deaf child, the following are just 3 of the more common, no one of these is 'right' for every child:

  1. Focus on English: Strengthen the 'weak sense' (with HAs, CIs, etc) and provide a home and academic environment (mainstream or av/ao school) that bathes the child in fluent language using that sense (English) [ASL as a secondary language]
  2. Focus on ASL: Provide intensive sign language immersion to the family and close contacts and a home and academic environment (bi-bi/ASL school) that bathes the child in fluent language (ASL or other sign) [English as a secondary language]
  3. Bilingual: Provide intensive sign language immersion to the family and close contacts and a home and academic environment that bathes the child in fluent language [ASL and English concurrent] (if ASL is primary at home, then ao/av or mainstream school; if spoken language primary at home, then bi-bi/asl school) [this one is our choice :)]
In a perfect world, all three could be optimal solutions for a child, with no gaps IF the CIs/ HAs do provide adequate access to sound, IF everyone in the home environment is or becomes a fluent language user as a model for that child, IF the appropriate school environment is available, and most important, IF the child's is comfortably and effectively using the chosen means of communication.

I've seen this 'perfect world' in place for every single one of these approaches. I've also seen some messed up situations, sadly, when a variable unexpectedly wallops the plan (if a signing child wants to speak/listen, if a child with CI doesn't want to or can't hear appropriately), if an extended family doesn't use ASL exclusively in proximity to a signing child at home and instead one fluent member interprets the 'important bits.' But I think people need to be flexible in working with these options and have the drive to let go of something that perhaps was, but isn't ideal and adapt to what actually works for a child when that happens, regardless of which "camp" you might have been in at the start.
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Obviously you know. What we're trying to tell your friend is amazingly simple - The fact the deaf in general can learn how to use the spoken language. Thats it, thats all there is to it. That is directly from the deaf. Granted it may not be for everyone, and it may not be easy, but it is possible. That was the whole point. Then it gets twisted into "why not use a CI" "Why do you say oral only approach is not right" blah blah blah...

That is what we take offense to. We are trying to express our experiences without getting questioned... These are not the kind of questions we want to hear when we express our experiences.

BIG DIFFERENCE THERE.
 
Banjo said:
You know, I find it amusing how people are professing that they know this and that. Honestly, most of these people have only been doing this for a few years and yet they feel qualified to provide plenty of unsolicited advice and criticisms toward the deaf communities. It's just like teaching someone a few signs and then they start correcting you. I think it's just uncalled for to have people come here and tell us what we can and cannot do, or worse... be pitied!

We don't come here to be treated like second class citizens.
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I know.. I had to refrain myself from being a sailor.
 
Banjo said:
You know, I find it amusing how people are professing that they know this and that. Honestly, most of these people have only been doing this for a few years and yet they feel qualified to provide plenty of unsolicited advice and criticisms toward the deaf communities. It's just like teaching someone a few signs and then they start correcting you. I think it's just uncalled for to have people come here and tell us what we can and cannot do, or worse... be pitied!

We don't come here to be treated like second class citizens.
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Banjo, no offense, but I don't think anyone here is telling you what to do. You are seeing other people describe what they are doing and reacting to being told what to do and how to raise their children.
 
GrendelQ said:
Banjo, no offense, but I don't think anyone here is telling you what to do. You are seeing other people describe what they are doing and reacting to being told what to do and how to raise their children.
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Clarify please....
 
Frisky Feline said:
FJ, what's really bothering you? kids can speak well without ci and ha?
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That is a lot of it. Kind of makes the fact that she had her child implanted moot. Shows that it absolutely is not necessary.
 
GrendelQ said:
I don't see examples of anyone here telling Banjo what he should or can do or advising him how he should raise his children.
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That's what I thought you said. But like I have said before - you say it to a member of the deaf community, you also apply it to everyone in the deaf community.

Big difference in cultural values. You have your hearing world, we have our deaf world. Individualism vs Collectivism.
 
BecLak said:
So that it is clear: I had no HAs nor did I have CIs (because they weren't invented back then anyway). I also did not have any access to sign language either, expect body language and facial expressions. Before I started school, my mother would read me stories. I would watch her mouth, while looking at the words and pictures on the page. I soon figured out the connection between the mouth movements and the letters, and I got comprehension from the pictures. Later at age 7 I noticed there were some missing gaps in the way I understood I was speaking and the words on the page. eg: de was actually desk so I began to correct myself and my mother also corrected the way I spoke, not with oral therapy but just by correcting my speech as she did with my hearing brother and now with her hearing grandchildren. As I got better in spelling and grammar at school, my mastery of the spoken and written languages grew. So in short, I used every visual means other than sign language in itself to learn to speak and to master the English language. Yes, it was a lot of guess-work and a struggle with misunderstandings and I still have to process words like a Wheel of Fortune game, especially with strangers, but I have achieved mastery of both the spoken and written language in English. (btw, my db is clearly below the speech banana so I cannot hear speech) It is like processing into comprehension a totally foreign language that you never encountered before in your life, each and every day.
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Exactly!! I have said, time and again, that young deaf children in hearing families are usually speechreading before they are even diagnosed. They connect the mouth movements as shapes that are a symbol that represent a concepts, the same way a hearing child connects the actual word they hear. I am so glad that someone else has now stated that is what they did.
 
drphil said:
Sound not necessary for SPOKEN LANGUAGE-- Really?Just mouth the words? Is this assertion serious?
Why do human being have "vocal chords"?

Right- silence does make for a quieter environment.
.
Gee off the important work- deaf swimming and ponder this latest "bit of wisdom".

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07
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How silly. We're not talking about mouthing words. We're talking about HEARING sounds. And the assertion that is being made by some that you MUST HEAR in order to have spoken language. I'm profoundly deaf, yet I have perfectly good spoken language.
 
faire_jour said:
Wirelessly posted



sound is absolutely not neccessary for language. All signed languages are 100% visual, no sound needed
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Sound is not necessary for English. That is what you refuse to understand.
 
faire_jour said:
Wirelessly posted



so, since it was a struggle and you wouldn't want another child to suffer like that, wouldn't it be in their best interest to have actual access to spoken language (to learn the language of the majority) through a CI? That way they can learn without the hardships you had to endure.
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No. It would be in their best interest to have ASL available to them. If parents were as quick to learn ASL as they are to implant and then incur years of unnecessary therapies, children would not go through what BecLak went through. The problem is not the lack of hearing.
 
faire_jour said:
Wirelessly posted



while i believe that access to spoken language through a CI would have reduced frustration for many children (because they don't struggle to lipread) there is still a lot of other issues. That is why i do NOT mainstream my child, why i make sure she always has teachers of the deaf and deaf peers, as well as access to ASL and the Deaf community.
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We are talking about DEAF kids. The point is, they should not have to rely on assisted hearing or speechreading!!!!! GAWD!!!
 
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