A Violation of Human Rights Re: Forcing A Deaf Child to Wear CI

[jillio]

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the claim is that a deaf child can fluently learn spoken language (without delays and deficits) through speech reading alone. and i don't buy it. I think it is cruel, and most of the time futile. So many deaf people say that lipreading is nothing but guessing and it is exhausting and nearly impossible...so why also claim that it is a perfectly ligit way to learn fluent language?

either it doesn't work and is cruel or it works (and therefore is a perfectly acceptable choice).

Who in hell ever claimed such a thing? You really need to work on your reading comprehension and desist in changing posts to whatever your mind creates.

 

[jillio]

lol, im not asking her to leave, for a reason. This is not who has a bigger dick contest. You've clearly won that, and now cya.

Are you sure that isn't who IS a bigger dick?

 

[jillio]

Oh. I don't know about that claim being made, since I did not read most of this thread. I only speak for myself here when I say that I speak very fluent English and am an expert speechreader. I am not quite as fluent in ASL, since my receptive skills exceed those that are expressive. I cannot remember when I did not speechread, but the idea that I gained fluency of English through speechreading is something I doubt.

That claim has never been made. It is the result of imaginary manufacturing.

 

[jillio]

Wirelessly posted

if it is so easy, why are parents continually being told that it is cruel and that their children will end up with both language and cognitive issues if they choose that path? (as opposed to ASL)

You really are confused. We are talking about speech reading. You are talking about AVT and an oral only environment. Try to keep up.

 

[jillio]

It is only through the wisdom of hindsight that I agree it is cruel. Language and cognitive issues are not the only things that will arise.

Absolutely. Self esteem, self worth, personal identity, and depression coupled with a need to over control other areas of their life are just a few that pop to mind.

 

[Bottesini]

I have been tossing up whether or not to bother responding to this, since you never read my posts the way intended.

You have said that it is impossible to master English both spoken and written just by speechreading, that it is necessary for a child to hear. I have said I learned without HAs and CIs. I used whatever visual method I could since I did not have sign language to fall back on. I taught myself to read. and I have mentioned how I did that too. It is not easy, it is a struggle and it is a continual effort. But for you to suggest that it is not possible to master English that way, since I am proof that it can be done, it is an insult to me and others like me. I would not wish any deaf child/person to have to go through what I had to go through. But to disregard the achievement for which such a price was paid is an insult.

That claim has never been made. It is the result of imaginary manufacturing.

Yes it has. I bolded it for you above. I know it is because she is severely HOH and has enough access to sound to assist, but it is inaccurate to say no one made the claim.

 

[jillio]

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the post was for the general audience, not you specifically.

but this one is aimed at you. You say that kids today don't need a lot of therapy but then in the same breath say that they still have language issues....uh, wouldn't that mean that they were in need of therapy?! If you are saying that they can acheive with minimal work, but still end up with "screwed up language" (including that legs, spiders example you throw around), that means they didn't have enough access to the language and therapy they needed when they were young...which is what you yourself are advocating!

You are missing the point...they had extensive SPEECH therapy. What they didn't have was LANGUAGE therapy that would allow them to overcome delays created in young childhood by being in an oral environment.

Take the time to study a bit about language acquisition, and then try, although I know it might be difficult for you, to extapolate that information to the deaf child.

 

[jillio]

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beclak has repeately said that there is no problem with deaf people learning spoken language without hearing aids or CIs. She says they have been doing it for years without problems and that it is offensive to suggest that it can lead to deficits. That there are plenty that have done just fine.

so my question is, is that true? Is it not a problem? If thousands of kids did it without a problem (which she is continually saying), then why is it so horrible for a parent to not use ASL?

that is what i meant by "having it both ways".

You still don't get it. I am really beginning to doubt that claim you made sometime back of being a member of Mensa.

 

[jillio]

People, observe Faire Jour's technique: Once confronted with something hard to respond to, defer to other posts that has some holes in it and insert words.

No doubt. If she spent half as much time trying to understand what is being said as she does trying to distort and twist posts, she might have learned something by now.

 

[jillio]

Thank you, Jillio, the experience you have shared has given great insight to many I'm sure, which is the purpose of this exercise. Again,

You are quite welcome. Unfortunately, I fear, those that could benefit from it the most will totally discount it.

 

[jillio]

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either oralism works or it doesn't. Either unamplified kids learn fluent spoken language without struggles and deficits or they don't. Either lipreading provides enough information to learn language or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways, depending on what you are arguing about.

when she wants to argue against CIs she says that lipreading is enough to learn fluent spoken language. When she wants to argue against oralism, suddenly it isn't and it is cruel to deny a child ASL.

BecLak did not say anything what so ever about oralism. Are you literate?

 

[jillio]

Jillio, the stories and anecdotes you have told about your experiences with your son astound me. I especially like how you followed him into his world. I was floored with a mother's love. Thank you so much for your frankness, the sharing of your successful parenting and your perspectives. Wow, moving to an area with a deaf community. Ma'am, you are one great lady.

I do wish that others whom I believe do protest too much (ala Hamlet) would truly understand your attempt at help and teaching rather than take offense.

It reminds me of a Buddhist friend who said "to take offense is to give offense". Brilliant eh?

That is a quote I was unaware of, but I will be certain to remember it for future use.

As for the rest of your post, I am humbled.

 

[jillio]

Yes it has. I bolded it for you above. I know it is because she is severely HOH and has enough access to sound to assist, but it is inaccurate to say no one made the claim.

The post has been misinterpreted. We all know that one cannot learn written English by speech reading. The rest of us had no problem getting the meaning by reading all of the post, and then getting the true meaning from context.

 

[jillio]

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that's why i flat out asked. And i will again.

is speechreading enough to learn fluent spoken language (both expressively and receptively) through?

You have a habit of continuing to ask the same question over and over even though you have been given an answer. The answer is not going to change just because it is not what you want to hear.

Why should anyone here answer your repeated questions when it is apparent that you pay no attention to the answers you are given?

 

[deafdyke]

Absolutely. Self esteem, self worth, personal identity, and depression coupled with a need to over control other areas of their life are just a few that pop to mind.

jillo, again stop knowing so much about my life!!!! I was just talking about this with blank canvas on Facebook tonight. If it hadn't been for three wonderful summers at an amazing hearing camp (which was pretty much like a res school for me) I prolly would be even MORE messed up! It took me YEARS and years to build up my self esteem and self worth (from being oralized and mainstreamed) and to figure out who I was. ....and I have to say sometimes I feel like I have PSTD from my mainstream and oral only experiance.

but this one is aimed at you. You say that kids today don't need a lot of therapy but then in the same breath say that they still have language issues....uh, wouldn't that mean that they were in need of therapy?! If you are saying that they can acheive with minimal work, but still end up with "screwed up language" (including that legs, spiders example you throw around), that means they didn't have enough access to the language and therapy they needed when they were young...which is what you yourself are advocating!
You are missing the point...they had extensive SPEECH therapy. What they didn't have was LANGUAGE therapy that would allow them to overcome delays created in young childhood by being in an oral environment.

Ummm faire joure, they don't need years and years to develop spoken language skills like they did in the 60's, 70' and 80's and even the 90s!
Nowadays, CI kids are basicly hoh with CI. Hoh kids do not need hyperintense language instruction. They still have language gaps although they are not as severe as they were in the old days. Those types of mild delays tend to get worse the older the kid gets. A lot of times, parents are just told by mainstream public school administrers "Oh that's normal for a dhh kid" What you're missing is that iIt's pretty rare for an oral deaf (and a lot of times hoh kids too...even unilateral loss kids can have severe expressive language issues) kid to have NO spoken language issues, and to be totally on par with expressive (both written and spoken) language, even if they attend one of the oral programs or schools. CI kids are doing a lot better then in the old days yes....but they still have significent expressive spoken language issues. They're just not as severe as in the old days.
Also, many of them may not have been able to be served though an oral deaf program for whatever reason. Meaning they may have only gotten a general Chapter 766 special ed services/placement.

 

[Frisky Feline]

FJ, what's really bothering you? kids can speak well without ci and ha?

 

[Frisky Feline]

No doubt. If she spent half as much time trying to understand what is being said as she does trying to distort and twist posts, she might have learned something by now.

I was going to post it what you just said it. I don't need it to post it again. Yes. I don't get it why fj keeps testing, twisting, and being vague with words like she is picking up the fights for not listening to some of us who have been through the experience life.

im lost at where fj stands. all i see is that fj feels that relying on the sound is essential to access to the langauage. That's what I see in her therefore she can experiment with this method way on her own without asking us or doubting us.

 

[BecLak]

So that it is clear: I had no HAs nor did I have CIs (because they weren't invented back then anyway). I also did not have any access to sign language either, expect body language and facial expressions. Before I started school, my mother would read me stories. I would watch her mouth, while looking at the words and pictures on the page. I soon figured out the connection between the mouth movements and the letters, and I got comprehension from the pictures. Later at age 7 I noticed there were some missing gaps in the way I understood I was speaking and the words on the page. eg: de was actually desk so I began to correct myself and my mother also corrected the way I spoke, not with oral therapy but just by correcting my speech as she did with my hearing brother and now with her hearing grandchildren. As I got better in spelling and grammar at school, my mastery of the spoken and written languages grew. So in short, I used every visual means other than sign language in itself to learn to speak and to master the English language. Yes, it was a lot of guess-work and a struggle with misunderstandings and I still have to process words like a Wheel of Fortune game, especially with strangers, but I have achieved mastery of both the spoken and written language in English. (btw, my db is clearly below the speech banana so I cannot hear speech) It is like processing into comprehension a totally foreign language that you never encountered before in your life, each and every day.

 

[faire_jour]

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that's why i flat out asked. And i will again.

is speechreading enough to learn fluent spoken language (both expressively and receptively) through?

I have been tossing up whether or not to bother responding to this, since you never read my posts the way intended.

You have said that it is impossible to master English both spoken and written just by speechreading, that it is necessary for a child to hear. I have said I learned without HAs and CIs. I used whatever visual method I could since I did not have sign language to fall back on. I taught myself to read. and I have mentioned how I did that too. It is not easy, it is a struggle and it is a continual effort. But for you to suggest that it is not possible to master English that way, since I am proof that it can be done, it is an insult to me and others like me. I would not wish any deaf child/person to have to go through what I had to go through. But to disregard the achievement for which such a price was paid is an insult.

so, since it was a struggle and you wouldn't want another child to suffer like that, wouldn't it be in their best interest to have actual access to spoken language (to learn the language of the majority) through a CI? That way they can learn without the hardships you had to endure.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

Yes it has. I bolded it for you above. I know it is because she is severely HOH and has enough access to sound to assist, but it is inaccurate to say no one made the claim.

The post has been misinterpreted. We all know that one cannot learn written English by speech reading. The rest of us had no problem getting the meaning by reading all of the post, and then getting the true meaning from context.

she specifically claimed spoken english, both receptive and expressive.