A Violation of Human Rights Re: Forcing A Deaf Child to Wear CI

[Jiro]

It's been a long time. I'm sure it doesn't apply to everyone there, but... it was extremely socially awkward. And they DO sign, just not in classes. I tried talking to them and signing with them. Yea that was just... awkful.

I also watched classes going on. It didn't seem.. right. I can't explain why. My mom hated it, for sure. The first time I visited, the people who worked there even recommended that I go straight to mainstream instead of going there because "my IQ was too high" and something about doing well with understanding spoken language. (Hint hint.. my IQ isn't even high!)

ah... lol gotcha

 

[BecLak]

Wirelessly posted

Well done Grendel (sarcasm) for taking the conversation down a totally different track just because you were uncomfortable with where it was heading and totally ignoring a deaf person's experience and perspective. You didn't even read my post properly or the track of the conversation would not have gone this way. It is a deliberate ploy. Thanks very much (again sarcasm)

 

[jillio]

I think that's exactly FJ's point.

Uh, no it isn't.

 

[jillio]

I understand what you're saying.

So, for your statement above "oral deaf tend to congregate with hearing people while Deaf people tend to congregate with themselves" --

I want to point out what Beowulf said:



And you said, "huh? Really?"

Beowulf's right. When there's a large group of deaf together, not many are oral deaf. Because many of the oral deaf are congregating with the hearing, just as you said. So that's why it's a challenge to find oral deaf congregating with other deaf.

Exactly. Because they have been force fed the belief that because they are oral, they are more hearing than they are deaf. Just another example of audism.

 

[jillio]

some of them were very curious about the identify himself and the deaf culture, just like my hubby.



it depends on what individual's comfort zone: their identify where their upbringing and society and attitudes. yeah.



Me too. But i knew statistics tend not to be accurate based on people who would not cooperate with or lack of information in the local area.

Many oral deaf find the deaf community later in life when they discover that, after school days, no matter how hard they try, they still never quite fit into that hearing world that the mainstream or oral school is supposed to prepare them for. They then suffer identity crises which are not resolved until they find a community of people that have had like experiences and feelings...the Deaf/deaf community.

Just an example of those psycho-social consequences of being in an oral only or mainstreamed environment that I constantly talk about.

 

[AlleyCat]

Exactly. Because they have been force fed the belief that because they are oral, they are more hearing than they are deaf. Just another example of audism.

Not just that, but what they see as ease of communication, even if it isn't necessarily true. I'm not discounting that the oral deaf feel they are comfortable with the hearing by speechreading, etc., but how many of us have said when we're in a deaf group of hands full of flying signs, we all understand what everyone else is saying? (assuming we all know ASL) -- there's no guesswork involved, no speechreading.

 

[jillio]

I have to deal with this with my Dad quite often. It does't seem to occur to him that some of his suggestions on how to deal with my deafness may not be the most practical idea or the most helpful idea.

Because, if I may say so, your father holds onto the audism belief system and the medical perspective.

 

[BecLak]

Wirelessly posted

Exactly and to say that spoken language cannot be mastered and/or the deaf person who speaks has language deficits unless they use a HA or CI - is audism.

 

[jillio]

There are significant differences in the needs of a child wearing an HA and a child wearing a CI, and many get down to a pretty granular level tailored to the individual child. Your school may not have been aware of or addressing this OR you were not privy to the specifics. I'd be very surprised if my child's school made the inner workings of our accommodations and issues available to the parents of her classmates with HAs, and we have only started to address the differentiation between addressing CI and HA in her educational environment.

Oh? What exactly are those many significant differences?

My son's school was very proficient in dealing with the students with CIs, as well as the students with HAs. And I was very privvy to the specifics, to the degree that I sat in on classes to observe the differences in functioning between the high school students with CI and the high school students with HA at 2 different deaf schools, and then did personal interviews with both groups as a part of my dissertation research.

Like I have said many times: Your daughter is five. Wait until she is 15. You will see a far different picture than what you are seeing now.

 

[jillio]

I do, but I won't impose my beliefs on others -- I may have chosen a CI, bilingual ed, but I don't think you should have to do the same. I have more respect for others and their judgment than to think I somehow know better than any other parent what's best for all.

No one here as claimed to "know better". We claim to "know more" about the long term consequences of certain choices and certain methodolgies for the vast majority of deaf children.

 

[jillio]

Depends on the environment chosen. If sign immersive, no access to sound would be required.

Stop tap dancing. I want a definition, preferably an operational one, of what "adequate access" to sound is.

 

[jillio]

I know... Gee, I wonder why many "choose" to be orals.... Oh yeah, their environment. Why didnt I think of that!

They don't choose to be oral. They have never been given another option. That is hardly a choice.

 

[GrendelQ]

Wirelessly posted

Well done Grendel (sarcasm) for taking the conversation down a totally different track just because you were uncomfortable with where it was heading and totally ignoring a deaf person's experience and perspective. You didn't even read my post properly or the track of the conversation would not have gone this way. It is a deliberate ploy. Thanks very much (again sarcasm)

Yeah, that wacky accusation wasn't out of the blue or anything. << sarcasm

Mwah hah hah .... looks like I've successfully managed to spoof every participant on this thread and make it actually look like there've been multiple people participating in a conversation just to put your knickers in a bunch. Hope the mods don't notice.

Now, I'm sorry the conversation didn't go the way you wanted, so let's find out where you were heading with your thought process and get back on track. OK, I see, I wasn't involved in that aspect of the conversation, but it looks like you wanted to talk some more about how you successfully learned to both speak and comprehend spoken language without access to sound using just speechreading. And how speechreading was your primary tool in developing written English, too.

Brava for that, and please excuse my interruption with the idea that parents need to listen to a broad range of deaf perspectives in making decisions about their children's approach to language -- I don't know how I thought that might be relevant to the OP or the direction of the conversation. Nevermind all that.

 

[jillio]

I wasn't referring to a statement you've made, I'm referring to general efforts by deaf culture activists towards eradicating what has been a historically oral majority in the deaf population -- via education, awareness, legislation, etc..

I'm going to need some statistics on that "historically oral majority" before your post can be given any validity.

And, audism is responsible for that statistic.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Wirelessly posted

People don't choose to be ASL-only or oral-only.


If you're an American expat in Mexico, yeah, you can get by with just English, but ... Constant reminder of a Spanish environment with little or no venues to escape to allow the gringoness expose to itself would dictate one's actions. That's why the Deaf treasures DPHH, Deaf Church, ASL clubs, Deaf Dart and many more social events.

 

[GrendelQ]

No one here as claimed to "know better". We claim to "know more" about the long term consequences of certain choices and certain methodolgies for the vast majority of deaf children.

Yes, yes, yes. I've communicated with many well educated and well intentioned deaf who don't think that choosing ASL or a school for the deaf is the most appropriate approach for my daughter based on their "knowing more" and for longer. And yet, with plenty of information to the contrary, I choose otherwise. Claiming that you know more about what's right for my child doesn't make it so.

 

[jillio]

There are many deaf with many perspectives about what is most beneficial. Your view is not the most common. If all parents were to take the majority deaf perspective, as you seem to be advocating, we'd have an all-oral world. The parents such as those here on AD are outliers, not making decisions based on crowdsourcing the masses.

May not be the most common to you, as you no doubt limit your actual contact with the deaf to those you encounter in EI or pre-school environments, not to mention CI centers and audi offices. Kind of limits your exposure to that which supports what you want to believe.

This forum is an example of the Deaf/deaf community in a way that those other encounters will never, and can never, be. Since you tend to discount anything that is said on this forum, other than what FJ and rick48 have to say, it is apparent that you attempt to limit your contact here as well. The opinions you see on this forum from deaf members are indeed the majority opinion from deaf individuals from all walks of life and all backgrounds. But you have to get out of your safe little environment to understand that.

 

[jillio]

Grendel -- the bold -- where are you getting this from? It would appear to me that we're saying the opposite. Not once have I advocated for oral-only (or all-oral as you said), same as Shel, PFH, Jillio, etc. and nearly everyone that is early deafened.

I was wondering how she managed to twist that one, but got dizzy trying to figure it out.

 

[BecLak]

Wirelessly posted

some of them were very curious about the identify himself and the deaf culture, just like my hubby.



it depends on what individual's comfort zone: their identify where their upbringing and society and attitudes. yeah.



Me too. But i knew statistics tend not to be accurate based on people who would not cooperate with or lack of information in the local area.

Many oral deaf find the deaf community later in life when they discover that, after school days, no matter how hard they try, they still never quite fit into that hearing world that the mainstream or oral school is supposed to prepare them for. They then suffer identity crises which are not resolved until they find a community of people that have had like experiences and feelings...the Deaf/deaf community.

Just an example of those psycho-social consequences of being in an oral only or mainstreamed environment that I constantly talk about.

That! Mostly stemming from subtle bullying in and after school (I am not talking about physical bullying that happens often in schools - though I was fortunate not to experience that) but the verbal and mental bullying is rampant even out of school.Treating you as if you were STOOPID! A classic example of that is what brought me to AD.

 

[jillio]

I am working on finding an almost 350 year old article... That says exactly the same thing the Deaf are saying right now...

**nodding** Which is why I say that these hearing parents that think they have found a "new way" are simply repeating the history that they have not bothered to learn from.