Will my daughter be accepted in the Deaf Community w/ a CI?

[Passivist]

I think he meant that hearing parents need to be openminded about Deaf culture.....VERY openminded. They shouldn't reject it just b/c some "expert" thinks its a "crutch" or b/c they think that ASL is only for kids who can't hear and speak. It's very rare that there's no Deaf community around. What he is talking about are parents who outrightly reject the Deaf community b/c they want their kids to assimulate into the hearing world.
I definitly think that a kid who is functionally hoh, and just has SOME expressive language issues, or is otherwise only a little behind doesn't need ASL and Deaf culture outright. It's OK to gradually introduce it when they are in first or second grades.....however most other implanted kids could significently benfit from ASL and Deaf culture.

I see this word 'assimilate' bandied about, I get nervous ! especially when deaf people use it, as it is very negatively used by them, many parents (Most I believe), want deaf children to be able to ACCESS the hearing world, not pretend to be hearing. I think judgement is a bit clouded by those who use the "Hearing want us to be hearing clones" argument by the poor access they had in education or have had issues with uncaring people (Or even as some misplaced solidarity with deaf activism). I'm a parent too, with a child disabled, I would like my child to be more able to communicate with the world outside too.

He isn't forced one way or another, but as a parent and adult I KNOW any other skills he can acquire he needs to be taught them, because mainstream is NOT going to give a sh*t. I also know a disabled 'community' or a deaf one, is NOT going to be enough either. If we don't make it clear to our children the issues they are going to face (I believe in being up front),
then they can grow up being bitter and 'why me ?' with their attitudes and become isolatory. I think too many deaf people left education after a raw deal, and instead of addressing that, they withdrew into a deaf enclave and shouted discrimination, but without really addressing it. An alternative 'World' is an opt out. Life is tough, THEN it gets tougher. It isn't assimilation to want to break down barriers, it offers our children options a deaf world cannot do. Worrying if that 'deaf world' will now accept your child should nevr be an issue to addresss, it wshould welcome ALL, do we not insist mainstream does likewise ? Do 'Deaf' assimilate hearing or even non signers ? they DON'T !

 

[deafdyke]

[QUOTE[It isn't assimilation to want to break down barriers, it offers our children options a deaf world cannot do. Worrying if that 'deaf world' will now accept your child should nevr be an issue to addresss, it wshould welcome ALL, do we not insist mainstream does likewise ? Do 'Deaf' assimilate hearing or even non signers ? they DON'T ![/QUOTE]
Passcifist, most of us who think that almost all dhh kids should have the option to be exposed to ASL and Deaf culture at an early age, instead of waiting, think that there are advantages to BOTH worlds. Very few of us are pro-seperatist. We enjoy being a part of the hearing world......but that's not to say that the hearing/mainstream world is some sort of magical utopia. We SHOULD break down barriers...........we SHOULD have access to the hearing world....but that doesn't mean that we can't and shouldn't have access to the deaf world as well. Organizations like AG Bell and Auditory Verbal International push the myth that if a dhh kid can learn to speak, they won't need the crutch of Sign. There are some parents who are openminded and just want their dhh kids to aquire speech skills...........but there are a lot of parents who just want their dhh kids to be "healthy and normal" and totally assimulate into the hearing world......the fact is, that the assimulation methodlogy has been in practice for years and years and years........and under the "speech only" methodology most kids have done just OK.....there have been dhh kids who feel that they totally fit into the hearing world....but most, if not all of those kids tend to be very high achieving even for hearing people.

 

[Passivist]

I (Suspect), the greatest 'fear' of hearing parents, is to lose their child to a sector they see as 'seperatist' in nature. Perhaps it is really down, to the pro-ASL/BSL hardliners to get a new slant and be more accomodating and welcoming ? The rhetoric of 'deaf rights' has been tainted by these hardliners who are aggressive and hostile, we read them on the net all over the world. Yes deaf people suffer inequality, yes people could be more accepting, I question whether the direct and aggressive approach towards the people they want to be accepted has a point, it will just fuel concerns hearing parents have... Deaf culture HAS to move on, from the politics of 'blame' no-one likes it. The book 'A child lost to deaf culture' written some time ago, had a profound effect on many hearing parents... many accept they need peers, they are worried it then becomes the be-all, end-all to the exclusion of everything and anyone else.

 

[deafdyke]

I (Suspect), the greatest 'fear' of hearing parents, is to lose their child to a sector they see as 'seperatist' in nature. Perhaps it is really down, to the pro-ASL/BSL hardliners to get a new slant and be more accomodating and welcoming ? The rhetoric of 'deaf rights' has been tainted by these hardliners who are aggressive and hostile, we read them on the net all over the world. Deaf culture HAS to move on, from the politics of 'blame' no-one likes it. The book 'A child lost to deaf culture' written some time ago, had a profound effect on many hearing parents...

I totally agree! That is why we need to push the full toolbox approach!
Being pro-ASL doesn't mean that you're seperatist or anti-oral skills.
I can understand why some hearing parents aren't too eager about exposing their kids to Deaf culture, if their only exposure has been to extremists. Some of the extremists out there..........I can and do understand their POV......speech therapy is boring (especially when you've moved past learning language, and just need articualtion etc improved) but the communication war won't be won by being extremist. That goes for oral-only extremists as well!
Oh, and "A child lost to Deaf culture" is somewhat of a biased book, and rather outdated now. The writer used to post in a forum I hung out at, and trust me..............he was one of the most negative guys I had ever met. He was also one of those "mainstream and oral only is Utopia and there's no value in Deaf culture" types.....He was also relatively late deafened. He presents his story as why Deaf culture and ASL isn't nessary for those who are hoh, but it really is about how kids deafened relatively late, don't always fit in to the Deaf world. I can understand why a hearing parent would be anti-Deaf culture and ASL after reading that book..........but the author of that book is VERY negative about Sign and Deaf culture.

 

[Passivist]

I'll take your view on that.... but it did address real worries parents have.. they might lose contact with their children once 'assimilation' occurs into the deaf community.. parents are hearing mainly, it is a short change from being negative towards hearing, to being negative towards ones parents who are hearing too. "My parents don't sign", "They want me to learn oral skills", "My peers will reject me if I do, or have done this","Hearing don't understand deaf culture/people". THAT can be seen negative (Albeit true in part), as well. It comes across as 'anti-hearing'.

The continuation of deaf culture/language seems to be promoted as ONLY being viable if deaf keep as much distance between themselves and hearing as possible in some quarters. It is aided and abeted to a degree by sign-language, which because few hearing use it or will learn it, provides a very effective barrier too, many who use sign will obviously not be 'talking' direct to mainstream but using an intermediary (An interpreter), hearing see this as a barrier too, and negativeIn the UK 9 out of 10 systems that 'enable' deaf people are listed under serious social disablement, and even our police list deaf people as 'mentally handicapped'.

Yes they may respect deaf rights to use an interpreter but HOW, do they percieve this ? as a deaf person being dependant ? or Independant ? Enabled ? or supported ? Many deaf feel it is liberating and enabling, it is deaf gaining access and rights, but I've seen many hearing in mainstream saying and thinking quite the opposite. A dependant minority is a general view. A sector that needs 'help', I don't think deaf activism has really addressed the overall issue, of how others, see them, or really care so long as they can continue they way they are, integration is a non-start isn't it ? Deaf need to see themselves as others see them and start righting the wrong ideas, not being negative back we have MORE to lose than mainstream does.

I'd like to see the full box used, and a LOT more deaf-hearing interaction than I see at present, why do I feel I am wasting my time ? Deaf activism, (Not grass roots), is determined to oppose wherever they can to 'protect' culture. Does this suggest they haven't the confidence in it they say ? I suppose even using the term 'peers' is immediately drawing some line... yes we're deaf, no, it isn't impossible/undesireable for us and hearing to live and work or understand each other. Our deafness remains, but the barriers aren't needed to maintain THAT. It's a form of 'Deaf protectionism', which isn't I feel neccessary. We will get nowhere attacking mainstream or hearing people. A lot too, do not want to spend their lives stuck in some dead end either. The world is ours too.

 

[Nesmuth]

One's salvation within Deafhood is based on a person's benevolence toward Deafhood.

Deafhood as I see it is NOT inclusive. Look at the video blogs on Deafhood. They dont have captioning, or talk anything about oral deafs, late deafened, hard of hearing, dont include people who are oral, use cued speech, or have the CI implant.

I'm already working on fixing that up.

Do unto Deafhood as the way you want Deafhood to do unto you.

Richard

 

[Passivist]

One's salvation within Deafhood is based on a person's benevolence toward Deafhood.

Deafhood as I see it is NOT inclusive. Look at the video blogs on Deafhood. They dont have captioning, or talk anything about oral deafs, late deafened, hard of hearing, dont include people who are oral, use cued speech, or have the CI implant.

I'm already working on fixing that up.

Do unto Deafhood as the way you want Deafhood to do unto you.

Richard

I gather Brits are to blame for Deafhood. Deaf activism took Mr P Ladd's book on it, and turned it into a sign-only campaign, and it got distorted into almost total negativity towards mainstream. I blame Mr Ladd for not coming out and condemning that, still, it sold his books. We had a book previous to that by Mr D Alker who attacked a deaf charity who voted him out of office, allegedly for attacking them as not supporting sign users, the charity membership was concerned HIS aims were not inclusive and against the charity remit of 'Deaf and HI'. there was a gag on it being discussed for years. He sold a lot of books too !

Whenever an deaf activist has written a book about culture it has near always been based on attacking hearing people, I find this direction pointless and not helpful these days. MOst have moved on, these people haven't and pander to the disaffected...

 

[jillio]

It's MORE important you are accepted for you, not for what mode you use or what aid you wear, I think that is the real goal. 'Fitting In' sounds so defeatist, accept me as I am, sounds a LOT Better.

This is true, but when you ID withthe Deaf community, it is a hugh part of the you of which you speak.

 

[deafdyke]

They dont have captioning, or talk anything about oral deafs, late deafened,

Sigh..........Nesmuth.................most late deaf people don't really parcipatate in Deaf culture. Oral deaf people (not people with oral skills) tend to be encouraged to totally and completely assimulate into the greater hearing world, and not really ID as Deaf. Besides, if they are so upset about not being represented, then how come THEY haven't created their OWN media, that represents their views?

Many deaf feel it is liberating and enabling, it is deaf gaining access and rights, but I've seen many hearing in mainstream saying and thinking quite the opposite.

Passcifist, that's b/c of the hearing world view of the trappings(eg wheelchairs, Signs, walkers, etc) of disabilty being seen as creating the handicap. It's like a nondisabled person seeing a "wheeler" as being "wheelchair-bound" whereas the person sees themselves as using a device which gives them FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[deafdyke]

Oh and Passcifist, I think you're overstating the power that the seperatists hold. Only a small percentage of dhh (for there are some Sign only hh folks) folks Sign only. Some others are pro-seperatist b/c of the audist attitude that pro-oralism pushes. I can understand that, since I hated speech...I caught up relatively quick in terms of language, but my articulation, pitch, volumne etc are still crap...........and those are the boring VERY hard parts of speech therapy!
I also understand the worry that a parent would have that they might "lose" their dhh kid to another culture, but on the other hand parents should be openminded about the culture in the first place. I mean it's really ironic that any parent would jump for joy if their kid got to parcipate in another culture and become fluent in another language. People pay GOOD money for that.....but yet b/c Deaf culture and ASL has the stigma of being speshal needs, we have this rediclous "oh my child will become a seperatist" attitude. Perhaps if we promoted ASL and Deaf culture as an cool enrichment thing that gave dhh kids an edge, then it would become incredibily popular!

 

[Angel]

Whether or not your daughter may be accepted in the Deaf Community, the important thing is what makes your daughter happy, if CI is the best device to help your daughter hear than you're making the right choice for her...There are going to be some Deaf people in the Community that may not approve of children who are implanted with CI, is cause they still think they're not happy about themselves being deaf when some of us here know it's not what it's all about, I think it's takes alot of time for some folks to really understand why hearing parent choose CI for their children and only time will tell when they fully understand the reason behind it all..... I wish your daughter the best, and she is more than welcome in the Deaf Community with or without CI....

 

[Passivist]

Oh and Passcifist, I think you're overstating the power that the seperatists hold. Only a small percentage of dhh (for there are some Sign only hh folks) folks Sign only. Some others are pro-seperatist b/c of the audist attitude that pro-oralism pushes. I can understand that, since I hated speech...I caught up relatively quick in terms of language, but my articulation, pitch, volumne etc are still crap...........and those are the boring VERY hard parts of speech therapy!
I also understand the worry that a parent would have that they might "lose" their dhh kid to another culture, but on the other hand parents should be openminded about the culture in the first place. I mean it's really ironic that any parent would jump for joy if their kid got to parcipate in another culture and become fluent in another language. People pay GOOD money for that.....but yet b/c Deaf culture and ASL has the stigma of being speshal needs, we have this rediclous "oh my child will become a seperatist" attitude. Perhaps if we promoted ASL and Deaf culture as an cool enrichment thing that gave dhh kids an edge, then it would become incredibily popular!

I think you are right, despite deaf activism having little real support among grass-roots, they ARE seen as the 'voice' of culture, so the brush paints all the same. Grass-roots don't really get involved,they socialise, carry on with their lives, they should however be paying more attention to what is being said in their name, since the activist ALWAYS uses 'we' in a collective sense, they ARE saying grass-roots support the view, until moderates come out and say differently, the view is attached to language/culture and all deaf people.

The activists are very able, very adept people but with a message a lot aren't happy with. We would all support the access campaigns and recogntion ones, not so happy they are marginalising us as a result. A silent majority is a non-majority unless they speak u, and a few disaffected seperatists can spoil it for everyone, this topic, is an example of what some parents fear, WE know there would be a welcome from near all, but we aren't convincing anyone else because of the seperatist messages, which bring deaf people and deaf culture and language into disrepute. It's a very subtle message the activist uses but there is a lot of hate in some of it too.

Our very own deaf taliban.

 

[jillio]

I think we are overlooking the point that culture satisfies more than linguistic needs. Everyone has an innate need to know that there are others like themselves, that someone shares their experiences, and that someone has a deep understanding of their position. If a child does not develop that sense of belonging, he/she is socially restricted and it can and does lead to many problems separate from the language delays. We all need that human connection that provides us with the knowledge that we are not alone. The Deaf community provides that for a young deaf child, whether they are oral, rely on ASL, come from a TC philosophy, or have been implanted with a CI. Just because a deaf child is proficient in English language does not guarantee that they will feel a part of the hearing culture. In fact, most live their lives feeling that they don't quite belong.

 

[EDGE]

real deaf community should be part of social and talk like real than rather saying H-I M-Y N-A-M-E I-S B-L-A-H.

Some ridiculous deaf community saying CI isn't part of deafhood. That's their problem.

 

[jillio]

real deaf community should be part of social and talk like real than rather saying H-I M-Y N-A-M-E I-S B-L-A-H.

Some ridiculous deaf community saying CI isn't part of deafhood. That's their problem.

What?

 

[deafdyke]

Just because a deaf child is proficient in English language does not guarantee that they will feel a part of the hearing culture. In fact, most live their lives feeling that they don't quite belong.

Yes! That is totally my point! Even "superstars" have significent social-emoitional difficulties. I really really really think if Mark Drousbaough ever gets that anthology out, that my piece will show hearies and extreme Deaf alike that orally trained doesn't mean that everything's all fine and dandy.
Passcifist, part of the problem is that until recently most Deaf people were oral failures. Hearies thought that only oral failures needed the "crutch" of Sign and Deaf culture. So that in itself created seperatistim. Early on, a lot of people from the whole Deaf spectrum learned Sign. I know that in UK it's mostly stereotypical severe-profounders who only Sign....but here in US, it's a lot more welcoming......I know tons of hoh folks who know and use Sign.

 

[Passivist]

Yes! That is totally my point! Even "superstars" have significent social-emoitional difficulties. I really really really think if Mark Drousbaough ever gets that anthology out, that my piece will show hearies and extreme Deaf alike that orally trained doesn't mean that everything's all fine and dandy.
Passcifist, part of the problem is that until recently most Deaf people were oral failures. Hearies thought that only oral failures needed the "crutch" of Sign and Deaf culture. So that in itself created seperatistim. Early on, a lot of people from the whole Deaf spectrum learned Sign. I know that in UK it's mostly stereotypical severe-profounders who only Sign....but here in US, it's a lot more welcoming......I know tons of hoh folks who know and use Sign.

So we agree seperatism exists,so how can we tackle it ? ignoring it won't make it go away. I'm unsure the USA is any more 'accepting' than we are, some USA sites are very militant and dogmatic too, but in part it seems the UK has serious issues of acceptance to resolve (Our colonial past I suspect !). A few years ago no-one challenged the cultural aspect of deafness, whatever as the saying went, turns you on, everyone was buzzing with 'culture' and language etc, it is now in the UK almost a daily occurence to find culture under fire and seperatists of both sides clashing head on, many UK sites (Including the RNID, UK's number one deaf charitable service providor), closed forums to prevent very heated arguments, the Britsh Deaf Association is too scared to open a forum), it wasn't trolls or spoilers, but those who didn't accept culturality opposing those that did, mainly on the grounds culturality appeared to mean continued isolation from mainstream as a pre-requisit of cultre continuation.

Cultural members responded this is audism/hearies (?), attacking deaf people again, but a survey of those involved displayed most were in fact deaf as well (Probably the d variety), determined to have a voice after many years of standing and watching. No-one here in the UK sees unity as viable

 

[deafdyke]

So we agree seperatism exists,so how can we tackle it ? ignoring it won't make it go away. I'm unsure the USA is any more 'accepting' than we are, some USA sites are very militant and dogmatic too

That's easy......Reduce seperatism. Stop painting Deaf culture/ being Deaf as only for those who don't have any oral abilty. Promote the full toolbox approach. Then that way, the dhh kids of today will grow up very bi-bi, and the separatists will die out.

 

[Passivist]

That's easy......Reduce seperatism. Stop painting Deaf culture/ being Deaf as only for those who don't have any oral abilty. Promote the full toolbox approach. Then that way, the dhh kids of today will grow up very bi-bi, and the separatists will die out.

We revert to going around in circles again sadly... It would seem no moderates have a real voice in activism, or those that do prefer to 'get on with it' and ignore it, which isn't working. The stated remit of near 100% of any and all groups with hearing loss as a membership are 'inclusive' i.e. state deaf people and those with lesser hearing loss. The culture and language thing means they don't, have to adhere to this, e.g. they could set up a group to support ASL users to the total exclusion of any other deaf person, that 'right' is accepted, so the inclusive remit is ignored, this is not lost on various other hearing loss sectors who see this as an blatant inequality of provision, and as we know culture carries more clout in the financial area now, than mere deafness.

Rights/access then becomes a select domain via loudest voice, and we accept the ASL/BSL user is very good at this, and woudl clearly state to other deaf 'Go do it yourself', then you get a curious backlash that states you are not honouringthe inclusive remit if you leave THEM out. The sole answer seems to me for moderates and the majority to demand inclusivity of all and the inclusion of all modes too, why do we get so much opposition, to a need we all accept is just ? Is lack of moderate forcefullness to blame for allowing a complete ASL/BSL activist walkover ?

Rights has also bound us hand and foot for pointing out all in the deaf garden isn't as lovely as they say, or as fair.

 

[SpiceHD]

I think C.I. was orginally viewed as trying to make a deaf person to be a hearing person which is why it was so against by deaf people... so my personally opinion.. as long as your daughter is fully socially by deaf and is exposed to Deaf Culture and understood that she is Deaf but have ability to hear and have ability to communicate with both "worlds" (deaf and hearing) She will be fine with it.

I cant however say if she will be accepted by deaf if she uses C.I. but i do notice the reactions is getting better nowadays.

my advice whether if she wear hearing aid or cochlear implant just teach her to be okay with who she is despite the frustrations sometimes, and teach her how to stand up for herself and be tough. most of all teach her to be proud of who she is.

if she is proud of herself no matter what she wore to help hear a bit better then Deaf people (especially children) will have better respect

(im not telling u how to raise your daughter, just giving you a few tips on how to handle stuff if negative does happen )